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Ntbm Tren
- Thread starter mstiles87
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Gorilla-Pharma
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This may be a good read for you.
“19-NOR” King Of the Andro’s?
Carlon M. Colker, M.D., FACN If you’ve been paying attention at your local health food stores or any gym around the country that sells supplements, prohormones have become the latest craze. Substances like dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), androstenedione, androstendiol, 19-norandrostenedione, and 19-norandrostenediol, are just a few of the names you’ll come across. They are available over-the-counter (without a prescription) and thus easy for anyone to obtain. Under many different labels and brand names, prohormones are being touted as everything from testosterone boosters to anabolic steroid substitutes. But as new prohormones keep popping up on the market, the question really becomes one of wondering which, if any, is better. In particular, the latest prohormone panic surrounds the so-called “19-nor” supplements.
This being the case, from my perspective as both bodybuilder and physician, I’ll try to educate my fellow fitness freaks as to the facts about prohormones while attempting to keep all that technical, medical and scientific jargon to a minimum. In doing so, hopefully, I’ll answer the question of how the new age 19-nor prohormones differ from other forms of andro and leave it to you to decide if they are really better.
Although the word “prohormone” has a fairly broad meaning in the literal sense, in the dietary supplement and bodybuilding community it has taken on a more specific definition. In this context, prohormones refer to any steroid-like substance that even remotely resembles testosterone and might possibly form testosterone in the body. In addition, they refer to any steroid-like substance that might exert an anabolic and/or androgenic action similar to that of testosterone or one of its synthetic derivatives.
Simply stated, the hope for many, is that these prohormones will either become testosterone in the body when taken orally, or at least act directly on the muscles to give one the similar benefits of taking an anabolic steroid. This is what so many believe will definitely happen. The facts, on the other hand, are a little different.
To begin with, DHEA (perhaps the most common steroid found in the body) is one of the most widely purchased prohormones on the market today. In terms of it’s chemical structure, it remotely resembles testosterone. In theory, DHEA (which is mostly produced by small glands that sit on top of your kidneys called “adrenal glands”) is a prohormone that can be converted to testosterone in the body (1,2). However, it must first be converted to androstenedione. But don’t be misled into thinking that this interconversion of DHEA to testosterone is definite. Sorry bodybuilding brethren, but the fact is that an appreciable forming of testosterone from DHEA has simply never been proven. Science tells us that DHEA is not an effective testosterone booster, if that’s your purpose. Nonetheless, without scientific support, DHEA has been promoted as a “youth pill” by the anti-aging community. Unfortunately, other than a small and fairly unimpressive Austrian study done last year which showed a possible positive effect on erectile function, DHEA has been shown to do very little (3). In any event, the popularity of DHEA slipped among the bodybuilding and athletic community once androstenedione came along. Thanks to the nonsense that surrounded homerun king Mark McGwire, the popularity of androstenedione has grown in proportions only rivaled by the big fella’s long ball.
Unlike DHEA, androstenedione more closely resembles testosterone in it’s structure. This structural similarity to testosterone coupled with the fact that it is a step closer to testosterone in terms of synthetic reactions in the body, would lead one to believe that testosterone might be more apt to be formed from androstenedione than from DHEA. This does make intuitive sense, but science is split in terms of telling us what exactly happens to androstenedione when taken orally. There is a painful fact that all consumers should be aware of when considering the prohormone androstenedione as a testosterone booster. As easily as androstenedione can be converted to the male sex hormone testosterone, it can just as easily be converted to the female sex hormone estradiol if given to the wrong person (fig.3).
This is a dangerous fact that far too many people are ignoring. Think about it. What greater nightmare than taking a supplement that you falsely think is going to boost your testosterone, only to have it increase the amount of female hormone in your body? The most recent studies published in the journal Medicine & Science in Sport & Exercice in May of this year clearly indicate that, when taken repeatedly, androstenedione (and DHEA for that matter) failed to increase testosterone, failed to stimulate muscular growth, and served only to increase the bodies estradiol content (4,5,6,7,8). It should however be noted that these subjects were all men in their twenties with a normal testosterone and no problems with libido. This is an important point to consider because, in theory, androstenedione can stimulate libido and even increase testosterone, within the proper population. Such an ideal population would include men over the age of forty with a documented low testosterone level and/or a decreased libido.
As a libido enhancer for this select population, androstenedione is probably fairly safe for most, and effective for many. Since ingestion would be expected to occur perhaps only a couple of times each week the risk of problems is probably nil. This is in sharp contrast to the current multiple daily high dose regimens that many are chancing. These poor souls in search of more testosterone will end up doing nothing more than getting in touch with their feminine side, if you catch my drift.
Most of the positive effects of andro in this select population could be attributed to an androgenic component of effecting the brain. This at least in part helps to explain why so many people claim that it stimulates their sexual appetite, or that some athletes say it peps up their workout. In fact, in animals, androstenedione has been shown to act on the brain in the same way as testosterone by increasing aggression (9). This mechanism of action may well be the key to explaining why so many men anecdotally swear by androstenedione as being a fantastic libido booster (there’s something you can’t say about Viagra!).
In answer to the very real problem of DHEA and androstenedione eventually becoming estradiol and not testosterone (a process known as “aromatization”), the dietary supplement industry has come up with 19-norandrostenedione and 19-norandrostenediol. These newer synthetic prohormones are basically chemical structure modifications of the molecules androstenedione and androstenediol (an alcohol form of androstenedione). Although very similar, the 19-nor structures are in fact different from androstenedione and androstenediol. In particular, 19-nor simply means is that a carbon atom was synthetically removed from position number 19 on both androstenedione and androstenediol. The result is the formation of 19-norandrostenedione and 19-norandrostenediol. These substances theoretically have less of a propensity to aromatize and form estrogen.
This subtle difference in structure makes an enormous difference in function. In the case of the 19-nor molecules, the synthesizers were very clever. You see, instead of going after a molecule that boosts your bodies own testosterone production, they are attempting to mimic the prescription drug nandrolone. Nandrolone is a synthetic anabolic steroid available only with a prescription. A testosterone derivative, it is unique in structure and shares much of the anabolic features of testosterone while minimizing any androgenic side effects. In fact, 19-norandrostenedione in particular is remarkably similar in structure to nandrolone.
So, does that mean that when you take in 19-norandrostenedione, you are taking in a legal form of oral nandrolone? Well, perhaps. We know that if you take even small amounts of 19-nor prohormones your urine will actually test positive for nandrolone in as little as three days (10). If you are an athlete facing a drug test, sure enough, taking the 19-nors are as good as taking real prescription nandrolone because nandrolone is exactly what will be detected in the urine.
Whether over-the-counter 19-norandrostenedione actually behaves like prescription nandrolone in terms of having an anabolic effect, remains to be seen. This would require a longer term study looking at body composition changes and strength gain—a study I would love to see performed. Interestingly, in my assessment, I doubt any company would undertake the sponsorship of such a study. The reason for this is that if the 19-nors (in particular, 19-norandrostenedione) prove to be anabolic, regulatory commissions will likely have every reason to step in and make it a prescription drug. As such, a lot of companies will be out a lot of money. Any takers?
To complicate matters more, these 19-nor substances come in pill form and subsequently must pass through the liver. Any substance taken orally must undergo what is called “first-pass metabolism” by entering the liver through the gut. Our natural physiology puts the liver in jeopardy. If any liver toxic substances are taken by mouth, liver function can be compromised (perhaps the most common example is alcohol—too much alcohol, no more liver). In the case of the 19-nor prohormones, I have the same concerns regarding liver toxicity with them over the long term as I would with the chronic use of any oral prescription anabolic steroid. I have demonstrated experimentally that the 19-nors exert no harm on the liver, kidney, and bone marrow over ten days, but again it is the long term usage with which I voice trepidation and feel that further research needs to be done before we can say that they are truly safe (10).
As a final point when considering the non-prescription 19-nor’s keep in mind that, if they act anything like the prescription 19-nor anabolic steroids, they are likely to be much more anabolic (tissue building) than androgenic. Both androgenic and anabolic categories and shared by the parent compound testosterone. Since testosterone is the defining male sex hormone that all andro’s and anabolic steroids attempt to emulate at some level, it is important to understand how these two categories (also referred to as an “index” for each category) relate to the 19-nor’s.
The first category of testosterone action is the androgenic index. This index is largely responsible for the development of male sex characteristics including aggression, facial hair growth, male pattern baldness, increases in libido, and deepening of the voice, just to name a few. The second category of testosterone action is the anabolic index. Governing such things as muscle growth as well as tissue repair and recuperation, it is easy to understand why bodybuilders and strength athletes are most concerned with the anabolic benefits of testosterone and care little about the androgenic index.
Herein lies my point. Prescription 19-nor anabolic steroids were originally manufactured to be more anabolic than androgenic when compared to testosterone. Synthesized for medical purposes, the idea was to develop a tissue building substance while minimizing the side-effects linked to the androgenic index. Of course, this is at the cost of libido, which is also governed by the androgenic index. So no libido enhancement can take place with these substances. In fact, it is well known that these prescription 19-nor steroids actually decrease the bodies own natural testosterone production through negative feedback. My concern is that any over-the-counter 19-nor, if possibly anabolic, will also be relatively non-androgenic. The result?--a decrease in libido and a shut-down in your bodies own testosterone production.
I guess the moral of the story is to stay informed. Don’t kid yourself. Just because a veritable plethora of andros are available in health food stores and gyms without a prescription, all andros are not alike. Whereas DHEA and androstenedione might be better for erectile function and libido for select individuals, the 19-nor prohormones might be more anabolic. In particular, 19-norandrostenedione may be the closest thing on the vitamin store shelves to a prescription anabolic steroid. Ever the one to leave you with a controversial statement to ponder, my bottom line is quite clear—In my opinion, whether or not you believe that 19-nor’s are “king of the andro’s”, for better or worse if you’re going to take 19-nors, you might as well consider yourself on steroids!
Not sure on the differences yet flash, im not running this until Dec 1 i think, i just ordered my caber from gwp, and got hooked up with a couple bottles of unleashed from a buddy going over seas who cant take them. My cycle is pretty much complete at this point, just waiting for a shipment to come in for some new n2slin and bridge, pct is all in, caber will be in this week the last thing im waiting on is for n2guard to be back in stock
bluetoolpaul
New member
I was able to control tren sides w/ forma and adex. And im very gyno prone. I haven't tried oral tren but it's definitley more w/ in my budget.
