Zigzag methode for steroids...

[fast_lane]

Reffering to the answers i had from u guys in my last post"How long for orals to begin having an anabolic effect" if it takes a few hours for orals to begin working and building muscle fiber and it takes a few days of ingesting thems (orals or short half life A.S.S.)to shut down hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - y not use a zigzag methode in order to keep the HPTA from shutting down...or being inhibited?

U know the same type of zigzag methode used for dieting,3 hypocaloriques days followed by 2 normals caloriques days(2500 cal/3 days,3000 cal/2days) and so on,in order to keep the metabolism from going on "starvation mode" and keep on loosing fat.

So with short half life A.S.S. my theorie would be that the same type of "mini cycles" ,(a litle like G.H. in youngsters is being secreted by the body by "spurts")coud be used. As an exemple :



turanabol 60 mgs/4 days
2 days off
turanabol 60 mgs
3 days off

And so on for i dont kno how long,maybe 8 weeks,could maybe even go like that for a fews months or even years(still have to figure it out).


I also still have to figure out a fews other things,like the amount(mg's) to be taken,the best type of orals for this type of cycle(i have 500 turnaplex maybe i'll try it with this one... )

And i have to do blood draws so i can know exacly when to stop and when to restart taking the shit.This is going to cost me alot as i am going to do blood work draws every day or every 2 days for a week,im not shure yet whats the thing to do here,and i'm hoping u guys could help me figure it out.I want to know exacly how (whats the patern)short halflife A.S.S are influencing my hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - in order to keep it from shutting down or being to repressed.

Some of u guys will probably say that this is B.S. cycle etc but when u think about it y would'nt it work?Shure its gonna take more time to build muscle,but i want to keep my hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - as healthy as possible as in Canada (were i live)u dont get any h.r.therapy if u fuck up whith it... ,and i'm not doing competition etc,what i'm looking for here ,is a litle more muscle mass 10-15 pounds(long term)retainable...and getting my bodyfat to around 10-12%.Right now its 15 %. at 202 lbs 5'9"

Questions:

#1-should i do blood work every day for a week or every 2 days,3 days?So i can point out were my hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - starts to drop and be inhibited?Or maybe one of u guys already kno...Or maybe there's some kinda of "chart" u can refer to a litle like this one
http://www.bulkmuscle.com/pct/ unfortunately it does not work if u want to know for orals...

#2-how much mg's should i take?I would tend to think of hitting hard for 2 or 3 days(80 mg-100/day)And taking off for the next 2.What do u think?

#3-what patern do u guys think i should use (2 days on 3 days off? 1 day 3 days on 3 off?)obviously the blood work will tell me but i'm curious to see if u guys can guess it...

#4-Like i said i have 500 turanabols so i'm shurly gonna try theses for this "experiement" but what type of orals(or short half life injectables) would be the best in ur opinion?

 

[GUARDIAN]

Whoa that is quite the post! If u want to increase traffic and probability that members will read what u right and respond u may want to limit your questions and post size.

I want to address to your statement about orals and "building muscle fibers" in a few hours.

"Of the several recognized pathways of action, the MAIN one we are interested in, the anabolic component of protein synthesis (transcrption/translation, etc.) takes a good two weeks to occur. No amount of loading dose is going to increase the speed of this process."

imo u r better off running tbol ed for a specified length and then recover and do another cycle recover etc.

1) U need to get a base line done before starting any cycle and then get another once pct is complete to see if u have truly recovered. getting a blood test every couple of days would be ridiculous. unfortunately the charts u r referring to are used to gauge the amount of the compound in your system based on your dose schedule and half-life. the reason orals are typically not a selection is because of their short half-lives. they do not impact when to start pct like a long estered injectible. i do have a program i am working on that calculates orals and injectibles and charts the levels. but this will give u no indication of your hpta.

2)20-40mg ed for 4-6 weeks is sufficient for tbol for a first time dose.

3) ed due to the short half-life

4) test prop

 

[Nelson Montana]

Yeah, that's a little convoluted bro. Can you simplify your statements/questions? It sounds like you have an interesting idea but I'm not sure exactly what you're looking to do.

 

[needtogetaas]

This could be a good thread.

 

[str8nubin]

How funny I was going to actually start a thread kind of like this. I think this might be a good one.

I was over @ AM for lulz and came across this, from "DR D." He calls this the "pulse method" and I have NO IDEA what to think of it. But it seems to be similar to the zigzag you are proposing. It is a long read but here it is directly from that board.

*********

A lot of guys have been asking me to clarify my method on this cycling technique, so here's a good explanation if you're interested in trying this. It can generally be applied to any steroidal compound.


What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.

There are three common approaches to pulsing:
1) EOD dosing, so 3-4 times per week.
2) 2 days on / 2 days off
3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (some guys do this and think it's great, I don't practice it but it looks exceptionally safe at least)

Depending on your workout schedule, I would use one of these options for optimal pulsing efficiency. Doses can usually be high (40-60 mg instead of 10-30 mg) but take them close together preferably before 6 pm. It's not crucial you take the last dose before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for avoiding shut down. Take half of the total dose pre work out and half post work out instead of spread out evenly over the whole day like a conventional cycle. If an odd dose is to be used, like 30 mg, take the majority pre work out (so 20 mg pre/10 mg post). However, when pulsing non methylated compounds or fast acting ethers, take the greater dose post work out instead of pre work out. When pulsing, dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4 times to insure optimal results. 5 doses per week is pushing it and suppression will eventually ensue. If this is attempted, "holidays" of complete non use for up to a week per month may be required to discourage suppression. I do not recommend more than 4.5 doses per week and that is for advanced level only!

Also important to remember is nutrition. Have a good, high carb/calorie post work out meal or shake, and ingest sufficient protein especially on the off days. Off days are also a good time to take a cortisol antagonist or even just low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) if you're a slow healer or hard gainer especially. Cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon so dose at those 2 times minimum. Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (AI) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing. This bounce back phenomenon is an effect that is often noted when pulsing, so don't be alarmed if your testicular size increases dramatically on the off days. It is not uncommon for testicular volume and testosterone levels to increase above baseline, especially on consecutive off days during the pulse or after the cycle is over. This is like a built in post cycle therapy effect and if you're pulsing properly, you should experiences this to some degree. In pulsing, it is also important to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures means faster liver clearance. Normal safety ancillaries like healthy oils and lipid supplements are always advised on cycle and off, but be modest with liver protectants like Milk Thistle. They are generally counter productive and therefore not suggested when pulsing, except in conjunction with very potent or toxic compounds. If you elect to use liver protectants anyway, I would reserve them for off days only or take them no earlier than 6 hrs after your final dose of anabolics. Cycle safe!


Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:

Week-Dose(mg)
1 (10,20,30)
2 30
3 30-40
4 30-40
5 30-50
6 30-50
7 30-60
8 30-60

Example of a 4x/wk pulse Sat, Sun, Wed, Thur:

Week-Dose(mg)
1 (10,20,30,30)
2 30
3 30-40
4 30-40
5 30-50
6 30-50

 

[str8nubin]

As for sources, this gentleman says that he developed this method from taking AAS in the 80s when there was no PCT, so you had to be clever about preserving your balls. He doesnt have any clinical studies to back this up, other than that comparison to corticosteroid long term treatment in children.

In conclusion, it looks like he is saying "pulsing" / "zigzaging" etc will still shut you down, only it will take longer.

 

[Nelson Montana]

This is not unlike my "Cycling within HRT method." I don't agree with everything being said, but there's something to it. However, if cycles go too long the whole concept is for naught.

 

[fast_lane]

Whoa that is quite the post! If u want to increase traffic and probability that members will read what u right and respond u may want to limit your questions and post size.

I want to address to your statement about orals and "building muscle fibers" in a few hours.

"Of the several recognized pathways of action, the MAIN one we are interested in, the anabolic component of protein synthesis (transcrption/translation, etc.) takes a good two weeks to occur. No amount of loading dose is going to increase the speed of this process."

imo u r better off running Turanabol ed for a specified length and then recover and do another cycle recover etc.

1) U need to get a base line done before starting any cycle and then get another once PCT - post cycle therapy - is complete to see if u have truly recovered. getting a blood test every couple of days would be ridiculous. unfortunately the charts u r referring to are used to gauge the amount of the compound in your system based on your dose schedule and half-life. the reason orals are typically not a selection is because of their short half-lives. they do not impact when to start PCT - post cycle therapy - like a long estered injectible. i do have a program i am working on that calculates orals and injectibles and charts the levels. but this will give u no indication of your hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - .

2)20-40mg ed for 4-6 weeks is sufficient for Turanabol for a first time dose.

3) ed due to the short half-life

4) test testosterone propionate

Sorry for the lenght and number of questions but i was a litle enthousiatique about sharing an inspired thought i had the other day(zigzag methode with short half life A.S.S.)Anyway the main question i'm asking here is could this zigzag methode work with steroids?

I understand that if i take winstrol tabs oranavar or any other short half life steroids it'll take a few days,maybe even 1 or 2 weeks to see tangible results.But i dont think thats because nothing appens before 2 weeks,its probably just that u cant see it with ur own eyes,since it all begins by a myofiber scale buil up.
I realy dont know a many grams of muscle fiber it is possible to obtain by taking orals or any other short half life steroids for 2 or 3 days,but lets supose u get 100 grams after a "mini cycle" of 3 days of anavar.(numbers in the following lines are theoric numbers and have probably nothing to do with reality,they are just for the purpose of understanding my theorie.)
u stop for 2 days,because u know that ur Hpta begins being inhibited after those 3 days(u saw it on the blood draws ur doing every day...)
After 2 days off,u lost 50 grams of fiber.
U restart(still with the 50 grams left from the other "mini cycle") taking orals for an other 3 days and gain another 100grams of fiber. So now all together u have 150 grams of new muscle fiber from the strating point,
U stop again for 2 days,u loose another 50 grams of fiber.
U restart again 2 days later with 100 grams more then when u started and so on...


Just to make it clearer:


Cycle shedule weight of muscle fiber
in grams(gained or lost)


3days anavar 60mgs/ed 100 grams of fiber(gained)

2 days/off 50 grms of fiber (lost)

3 days anavar 60 mgs/ed 100 grms (gained)

2 days/off 50 grms (lost)

3 days anavar 60 mgs/ed 100 grms(gained)

So after 9 days on anavar 60 mgs u would get 300 grams of new muscle fiber,but u lost (on ur days off)100 grams so all together u still gained 800 grams of new fiber and ur HPTA is normaly fonctionning...

The point of doing all this of course is to avoid inhibiting(or even shutting down)ur HPTA in the same maner u would do a zigzag diet so ur nt shutting down ur metabolism and going on "starvation mode"and stop loosing fat...
The same for clenbuterol,even the human body use this methode naturaly in youngster by sereting gh by spurts...So y not try this with steroids?

 

[kidd73]

This could be a good thread.

Oh yes, it will be good.
Bro I'm stuck on the Canada thing. Can you help me out with something? You mentioned in Canada you get no help with HRT. As you may be aware, we have an election coming up and the idea of National Healthcare has come up. I have heard, maybe rumor, maybe not, that people in Canada are going to Veterinarians to get procedures like X-rays and MRI's because the waiting list at doctor's offices are sometimes a year long. Any truth to this???
Best of luck in your Amway method of cycling.

 

[fast_lane]

Oh yes, it will be good.
Bro I'm stuck on the Canada thing. Can you help me out with something? You mentioned in Canada you get no help with HRT. As you may be aware, we have an election coming up and the idea of National Healthcare has come up. I have heard, maybe rumor, maybe not, that people in Canada are going to Veterinarians to get procedures like X-rays and MRI's because the waiting list at doctor's offices are sometimes a year long. Any truth to this???
Best of luck in your Amway method of cycling.

Sorry bro but i cant help u with this one...Its truth that we whait very long for treatments,but its free right?...

 

[Cryptlord]

This sounds like "pulse cycling"

 

[fast_lane]

How funny I was going to actually start a thread kind of like this. I think this might be a good one.

I was over @ AM for lulz and came across this, from "DR D." He calls this the "pulse method" and I have NO IDEA what to think of it. But it seems to be similar to the zigzag you are proposing. It is a long read but here it is directly from that board.

*********

A lot of guys have been asking me to clarify my method on this cycling technique, so here's a good explanation if you're interested in trying this. It can generally be applied to any steroidal compound.


What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.

There are three common approaches to pulsing:
1) EOD dosing, so 3-4 times per week.
2) 2 days on / 2 days off
3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (some guys do this and think it's great, I don't practice it but it looks exceptionally safe at least)

Depending on your workout schedule, I would use one of these options for optimal pulsing efficiency. Doses can usually be high (40-60 mg instead of 10-30 mg) but take them close together preferably before 6 pm. It's not crucial you take the last dose before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for avoiding shut down. Take half of the total dose pre work out and half post work out instead of spread out evenly over the whole day like a conventional cycle. If an odd dose is to be used, like 30 mg, take the majority pre work out (so 20 mg pre/10 mg post). However, when pulsing non methylated compounds or fast acting ethers, take the greater dose post work out instead of pre work out. When pulsing, dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4 times to insure optimal results. 5 doses per week is pushing it and suppression will eventually ensue. If this is attempted, "holidays" of complete non use for up to a week per month may be required to discourage suppression. I do not recommend more than 4.5 doses per week and that is for advanced level only!

Also important to remember is nutrition. Have a good, high carb/calorie post work out meal or shake, and ingest sufficient protein especially on the off days. Off days are also a good time to take a cortisol antagonist or even just low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) if you're a slow healer or hard gainer especially. Cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon so dose at those 2 times minimum. Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (aromatase inhibitor) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing. This bounce back phenomenon is an effect that is often noted when pulsing, so don't be alarmed if your testicular size increases dramatically on the off days. It is not uncommon for testicular volume and testosterone levels to increase above baseline, especially on consecutive off days during the pulse or after the cycle is over. This is like a built in post cycle therapy effect and if you're pulsing properly, you should experiences this to some degree. In pulsing, it is also important to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures means faster liver clearance. Normal safety ancillaries like healthy oils and lipid supplements are always advised on cycle and off, but be modest with liver protectants like Milk Thistle. They are generally counter productive and therefore not suggested when pulsing, except in conjunction with very potent or toxic compounds. If you elect to use liver protectants anyway, I would reserve them for off days only or take them no earlier than 6 hrs after your final dose of anabolics. Cycle safe!


Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:

Week-Dose(mg)
1 (10,20,30)
2 30
3 30-40
4 30-40
5 30-50
6 30-50
7 30-60
8 30-60

Example of a 4x/wk pulse Sat, Sun, Wed, Thur:

Week-Dose(mg)
1 (10,20,30,30)
2 30
3 30-40
4 30-40
5 30-50
6 30-50

I'm righting this a litle in a hurry lol i'm late for work...But just wanna say that i am very pleased with this "article" of urs since it seems to give me plenty of answers i was hoping to here in this forum as for an exemple what is the best timing for the "on days" working out days?Or recovery days? etcThanks alot for ur help bro! i din't expect to have that much feedback for this tread but was hoping,and i appreciate every comment u guys can give me on that subject! I like EF!!

 

[str8nubin]

No problem always love to discuss. If you do any research on this then it would be really exciting to see. It seems like everyone is using orals for 2 or 3 purposes but there have to be some more creative purposes for them yet.

I'll be subscribed to this puppy 4 sure..

 

[kidd73]

Sorry bro but i cant help u with this one...Its truth that we whait very long for treatments,but its free right?...

...yep, it's free, and to that you have a good point. My point, and my post, belongs on another board, but screw it I'll say it anyway.
Free is great! But waiting a "long time" for a CT scan or MRI on a "lump" or tumor anywhere on your body isn't. I'll take my chances w/ rising cost here.
Good luck with your new cycle.

 

[motorol@]

...yep, it's free, and to that you have a good point. My point, and my post, belongs on another board, but screw it I'll say it anyway.
Free is great! But waiting a "long time" for a CT scan or MRI on a "lump" or tumor anywhere on your body isn't. I'll take my chances w/ rising cost here.
Good luck with your new cycle.

how is something from the government free?

 

[GUARDIAN]

how is something from the government free?

it is not. u should c their taxes! only the tourists can afford to eat out there....lol

 

[big___mike]

...yep, it's free, and to that you have a good point. My point, and my post, belongs on another board, but screw it I'll say it anyway.
Free is great! But waiting a "long time" for a CT scan or MRI on a "lump" or tumor anywhere on your body isn't. I'll take my chances w/ rising cost here.
Good luck with your new cycle.

My wife only waited 3 days for her MRI, In BC i havent heard about any ridiculous wait times for these simple scans

my mum just had ct scan and waited a week for it as well


for what its worth

 

[Tatyana]

Reffering to the answers i had from u guys in my last post"How long for orals to begin having an anabolic effect" if it takes a few hours for orals to begin working and building muscle fiber and it takes a few days of ingesting thems (orals or short half life A.S.S.)to shut down hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - y not use a zigzag methode in order to keep the HPTA from shutting down...or being inhibited?

This is very individual and depends on the effectiveness of the digestive enzymes, and variations in the cytochrome p450 proteins (which are coded for my mitochondrial DNA) just to name two of the big factors.


You are getting into the domain of genetic based medicine, which is still quite new, and geared to biochemical individuality.

You could probably have a general ball park guess at it if you look at the half life of the specific oral steroid.

If you want to be really accurate, it is going to take quite a few pubmed searches.

U know the same type of zigzag methode used for dieting,3 hypocaloriques days followed by 2 normals caloriques days(2500 cal/3 days,3000 cal/2days) and so on,in order to keep the metabolism from going on "starvation mode" and keep on loosing fat.

So with short half life A.S.S. my theorie would be that the same type of "mini cycles" ,(a litle like G.H. in youngsters is being secreted by the body by "spurts")coud be used. As an exemple :



turanabol 60 mgs/4 days
2 days off
turanabol 60 mgs
3 days off

And so on for i dont kno how long,maybe 8 weeks,could maybe even go like that for a fews months or even years(still have to figure it out).


I also still have to figure out a fews other things,like the amount(mg's) to be taken,the best type of orals for this type of cycle(i have 500 turnaplex maybe i'll try it with this one... )

And i have to do blood draws so i can know exacly when to stop and when to restart taking the shit.This is going to cost me alot as i am going to do blood work draws every day or every 2 days for a week,im not shure yet whats the thing to do here,and i'm hoping u guys could help me figure it out.I want to know exacly how (whats the patern)short halflife A.S.S are influencing my hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - in order to keep it from shutting down or being to repressed.

Considering the natural pulsatile cycle of your pituitary hormone release may have to be established first (I think humans release LH/FSH every two hours), and then you would have to determine how much that the steroid is suppressing the HPTA.

You may be able to do it if you take bloods every two or three days, but do you have the scientific background to interpret endocrinology results?

It is not always as straightforward as it seems as there are so many interactions.

I did find this old paper relating to testosterone and LH secretion in rats:

Negative feedback control of LH by testosterone: a quantitative study in male rats
DA Damassa, D Kobashigawa, ER Smith and JM Davidson


Adult male rats were castrated and implanted sc with testosterone (T)- filled Silastic capsules of different sizes which produce stable plasma T levels proportional to capsule length. T and LH levels were determined in blood samples obtained at 3-day intervals for 21 days.

Plasma T values greater than 1.8 ng/ml suppressed plasma LH to levels below the intact range, while a plasma T of less than 0.5 ng/ml yeilded no significant inhibition of the post-castration LH rise.

Animals with a plasma T of about 0.7 ng/ml, however, showed intact, castrate, or immediate LH levels. The feedback-effective range for all animals was between 0.5 ngT/mg (castrate-like LH response) and 1.8 ng/ml (LH at or below intact levels), but individual rats seemed to have a more restricted feedback range than that indicated by these group data.

To test this hypothesis further, rats were implanted at the time of castration with five 5-mm T-filled capsules. One capsule was removed each week, producing step function drops in plasma T, and allowing examination of the LH responses of individual animals.


Plasma t levels greater than 1.6 ng/ml maintained LH values at or below intact levels. However, when plasma T dropped to 1.1 ng/ml, some rats showed castration-like LH increase and others did not respond until after a further drop to 0.6 ng/ml. It was concluded that the feedback- effective range of plasma T is very restricted and differs in individual rats.


Some of u guys will probably say that this is B.S. cycle etc but when u think about it y would'nt it work?Shure its gonna take more time to build muscle,but i want to keep my hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - as healthy as possible as in Canada (were i live)u dont get any h.r.therapy if u fuck up whith it... ,and i'm not doing competition etc,what i'm looking for here ,is a litle more muscle mass 10-15 pounds(long term)retainable...and getting my bodyfat to around 10-12%.Right now its 15 %. at 202 lbs 5'9"

Questions:

#1-should i do blood work every day for a week or every 2 days,3 days?So i can point out were my hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - starts to drop and be inhibited?Or maybe one of u guys already kno...Or maybe there's some kinda of "chart" u can refer to a litle like this one
http://www.bulkmuscle.com/pct/ unfortunately it does not work if u want to know for orals...

#2-how much mg's should i take?I would tend to think of hitting hard for 2 or 3 days(80 mg-100/day)And taking off for the next 2.What do u think?

#3-what patern do u guys think i should use (2 days on 3 days off? 1 day 3 days on 3 off?)obviously the blood work will tell me but i'm curious to see if u guys can guess it...

#4-Like i said i have 500 turanabols so i'm shurly gonna try theses for this "experiement" but what type of orals(or short half life injectables) would be the best in ur opinion?

In so many ways, you are almost asking how long is piece of string without proteonomics and metabolic profiling.

There is no know 'set' amount of muscle that a person can build.

I have posted somewhere on this site the theoretical maximum amount of protein that the muscle can take in each day, which would give you SOME idea of how many grams of muscle can be created.

It is really interesting, but for any really solid answers, as I mentioned earlier, it would take quite a bit of research.

I may have some time this weekend to look into it more rigourously, but tonight, no.

 

[fast_lane]

As for sources, this gentleman says that he developed this method from taking anabolic androgenic steroids in the 80s when there was no PCT - post cycle therapy - , so you had to be clever about preserving your balls. He doesnt have any clinical studies to back this up, other than that comparison to corticosteroid long term treatment in children.

In conclusion, it looks like he is saying "pulsing" / "zigzaging" etc will still shut you down, only it will take longer.

Came back from work and finaly had time to read ur article.Very very interesting bro,makes me even more want to give my zigzag cycle a try...
Should start it around the 12 may,i have a few thing still to elaborate and questions to find answers,but forshure i will document my cycle and i will give u guys regular feedbacks from it and a complete post with my conclusions etc once the cycle finished witch will most certanly be a 4 weeker to start with and if things go as i expect i will try a 6 or 8 weeks zigzag cycle afterwards probably a month or 2 after my first 4 weeks cycle.I am very open to any comments or advices...

 

[fast_lane]

In so many ways, you are almost asking how long is piece of string without proteonomics and metabolic profiling.

There is no know 'set' amount of muscle that a person can build.

I have posted somewhere on this site the theoretical maximum amount of protein that the muscle can take in each day, which would give you SOME idea of how many grams of muscle can be created.

It is really interesting, but for any really solid answers, as I mentioned earlier, it would take quite a bit of research.

I may have some time this weekend to look into it more rigourously, but tonight, no.

Ur right i dont have the scientific background to understand and interprete the endocrinology results,but its not my intention to comprehend every aspects and details of the blood draws results.Nor am i wanting to kno exacly how many grams of muscle my body can build in a day etc(even if i would find it interesting to know anyways).I dont think it has to be that precise.
My goal here is to build muscle with out suppressing my HPTA(or at least the less possible)and doing so by immitating paterns the body seems to be naturaly doing its self,with spurts or pulses if u prefer...

 

[GUARDIAN]

i wish u luck with your experiment and hope the results do not disappoint u. i am looking forward to your progress and will be willing to help the best i can along the way.

btw - your chest looks very full and thick.

 

[Nelson Montana]

There is a simpler way of doing this and it's what I've been proposing for years.

Shorter, less suppressive cycles.

And there you go.

Another technique that is considered a waste of time but I feel is beneficial is using orals only on intense training days.

It essentially is the same concept, but without the elaborate scheduling. It takes more time but in the long run, builds more permanent muscle.

 

[needtogetaas]

There is a simpler way of doing this and it's what I've been proposing for years.

Shorter, less suppressive cycles.

And there you go.

Another technique that is considered a waste of time but I feel is beneficial is using orals only on intense training days.

It essentially is the same concept, but without the elaborate scheduling. It takes more time but in the long run, builds more permanent muscle.

Is there one oral that would be better then others for this?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Is there one oral that would be better then others for this?

I'd say dbol, simply because it works so effectively and for many, gives an immediate increase in strength. Var is supposed to be increase strength as well but I never felt it as much as dbol. But anything would work.

The other advantage is nitrogen retention post workout. It'll be short lived but the anabolic advantage would be heightened due to the steroid. Of course, these are subtle things and many may feel it's a waste, but if you're into the long haul, it makes sense. It's relatively safe, and the gains are more solid because they're obtained more slowly. If you just want to get swole quick for spring break, it's not for you.

 

[fast_lane]

i wish u luck with your experiment and hope the results do not disappoint u. i am looking forward to your progress and will be willing to help the best i can along the way.

btw - your chest looks very full and thick.

Thanks bro,for the compliment(my chest is one of my best body parts..)And i will let u know forshure for the progress and i'll try to make it as complete as possible,with pics and a good desription of my diet training etc.

 

[fast_lane]

There is a simpler way of doing this and it's what I've been proposing for years.

Shorter, less suppressive cycles.

And there you go.

Another technique that is considered a waste of time but I feel is beneficial is using orals only on intense training days.

It essentially is the same concept, but without the elaborate scheduling. It takes more time but in the long run, builds more permanent muscle.

I got a tell u someting Nelson,I'm 100 % with u on that and u know what?Ur the one that hooked me up...
Yup back in the days i was weight training at 18 years old for about 2 years(before that i was partying all the time loll),i finaly ended up practicing moutain biking for about 14 years,had some kind of a break for sport in general for a few years and 3 years ago dicided i'd go back and train at the gym again.
So i began training and reading all i could get my hands on and i came along a very interessting book called the "botomline" that has inspired me very much since then.(were talkin about 2 years ago now)With out righting everything u said...lol,one of the things or phrase that catched my attention very much was"there is a way" concerning taking A.S.S. in a safe way and with the less sides possible...And also all ur concept about short cycles etc(and i still refer to ur book often when i need infos)I like the way u can make things simple and clear.Continue the good work my freind!!

 

[fast_lane]

i wish u luck with your experiment and hope the results do not disappoint u. i am looking forward to your progress and will be willing to help the best i can along the way.

btw - your chest looks very full and thick.

Btw i love dips...

 

[Nelson Montana]

I got a tell u someting Nelson,I'm 100 % with u on that and u know what?Ur the one that hooked me up...
Yup back in the days i was weight training at 18 years old for about 2 years(before that i was partying all the time loll),i finaly ended up practicing moutain biking for about 14 years,had some kind of a break for sport in general for a few years and 3 years ago dicided i'd go back and train at the gym again.
So i began training and reading all i could get my hands on and i came along a very interessting book called the "botomline" that has inspired me very much since then.(were talkin about 2 years ago now)With out righting everything u said...lol,one of the things or phrase that catched my attention very much was"there is a way" concerning taking A.S.S. in a safe way and with the less sides possible...And also all ur concept about short cycles etc(and i still refer to ur book often when i need infos)I like the way u can make things simple and clear.Continue the good work my freind!!

I'll take that as a high compliment bro. Glad the info helped.

 

[fast_lane]

Ok before i spend a small fortune on blood line draws,does somebody heard or knows about a chart or some kind of a study or research concerning the way orals influences the HPTA at a day by day thing?
Am i clear here?I'm looking forward to take blood draws every days for a week during my zigzag cycle so i can see how oral steroids are influencing my HPTA...But maybe there's already something i can get my hands on insteady of spending money on the tests...Anybody heard about something like that or knows about that?

 

[fast_lane]

Can i bump myslef?lol i need answers guys...Just the blood drwas are gonna cost me like 500.00$ for a week...

 

[str8nubin]

I checked my academic search premier and a few other med journals...

The only thing I could find is related to AAS free Roosters very sad really

Its going to have to vary based on so many factors anyhow

Would be ideal if we had a 40 dude panel to generate our own graphs

 

[GUARDIAN]

i seriously doubt such a things exists and even if one did it is such an individual thing.

Ok before i spend a small fortune on blood line draws,does somebody heard or knows about a chart or some kind of a study or research concerning the way orals influences the HPTA at a day by day thing?
Am i clear here?I'm looking forward to take blood draws every days for a week during my zigzag cycle so i can see how oral steroids are influencing my HPTA...But maybe there's already something i can get my hands on insteady of spending money on the tests...Anybody heard about something like that or knows about that?

 

[fast_lane]

i seriously doubt such a things exists and even if one did it is such an individual thing.

Ya well ur probably right,but was hopping to find someting to give me an idea...So i'll have to check it out for myself with my own blood draws.I'll post the results on EF on this tread anyways so u guys can take a look at it..Cant wait to start that,i have a good feeling about it.

 

[GUARDIAN]

Ya well ur probably right,but was hopping to find someting to give me an idea...So i'll have to check it out for myself with my own blood draws.I'll post the results on EF on this tread anyways so u guys can take a look at it..Cant wait to start that,i have a good feeling about it.

that is gonna be a small fortune in blood tests in the name of science

 

[fast_lane]

There is a simpler way of doing this and it's what I've been proposing for years.

Shorter, less suppressive cycles.

And there you go.

Another technique that is considered a waste of time but I feel is beneficial is using orals only on intense training days.

It essentially is the same concept, but without the elaborate scheduling. It takes more time but in the long run, builds more permanent muscle.

I talked to a guy at the gym about my intentions,he is a "nutritionist and a competitive bodybiulder that works at the gym,he was saying to me that this type of cycling(zigzag)is going to be worst to my hpta.He says that hpta is not like closing or opening a light switch,and my body is going to read for a fews weeks the "on and off" thing and react by doing fucked-up backloops (aromatase estradiol etc)and will be even harder to recover since i wont know whats going on...What do u think about that?

 

[fast_lane]

No problem always love to discuss. If you do any research on this then it would be really exciting to see. It seems like everyone is using orals for 2 or 3 purposes but there have to be some more creative purposes for them yet.

I'll be subscribed to this puppy 4 sure..

Hey bro can u just tell me is there a notification option so i can know if somone responded to me on the forum in some tread?

 

[aquatic_glories]

I talked to a guy at the gym about my intentions,he is a "nutritionist and a competitive bodybiulder that works at the gym,he was saying to me that this type of cycling(zigzag)is going to be worst to my hpta.He says that hpta is not like closing or opening a light switch,and my body is going to read for a fews weeks the "on and off" thing and react by doing fucked-up backloops (aromatase estradiol etc)and will be even harder to recover since i wont know whats going on...What do u think about that?

bump

 

[ASC]

bumpp!

 

[fast_lane]

Just to let u guys know whats going on..I've been exploring things since a month and a half.Started by trying a2 days on 2 days off cycle for almost a month but since i'm using a relatively "long" (turanabol)short half life oral(short half life are better for that type of cycling), i've finaly decide after reading a big tread about pulsing in another forum that this steroid wasn't the best for pulsing...So anyway i got 500 of those t-bols so i decided to go for a 2 weeks on 2weeks off and see what happens.Ounce finished with theses experiments i'm going to post everything in details on the forum.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I talked to a guy at the gym about my intentions,he is a "nutritionist and a competitive bodybiulder that works at the gym,he was saying to me that this type of cycling(zigzag)is going to be worst to my hpta.He says that hpta is not like closing or opening a light switch,and my body is going to read for a fews weeks the "on and off" thing and react by doing fucked-up backloops (aromatase estradiol etc)and will be even harder to recover since i wont know whats going on...What do u think about that?

I'd say he's talking out of his ass. The body is in a constant state of fluctuation and can tolerate bumps along the way. Of course, too much of anything, be it dose or duration is bad. How can three 4 week cycles a year be worse than two 16 week cycles? The key is the recovery, and that isn't just PCT, it's time in between. You can't do a one month cycle and then jump back on in a couple of weeks. That fucks you up more than anything.

 

[fast_lane]

Ok just to let u guys know whats going on with my zigzag methode,i finaly stopped the experiment after 4 weeks(40 mgs/2days-followed by 2 days off)The results werent very obvious i lost maybe 1%bodyfat and got a pound or 2 of muscle but i'm not shure its the t-bol that gave me that since i started a new training regiment at the same time that i started the cycle...I'm notsaying this type of cycle ins't good i just think the coumpound i choosed for it was'nt appropriate the half life of turanabol being 16 hours.A better one would be d-bol with a half life of 4 hrs.
anyway i started a "regular" cycle of turanabol only and i,m in my week 4 of it and planing of going on for 6 or 8 weeks at 40 mgs/day.So far i have relatively good results:6 lbs of mass and another drop of 1% in fat(total drop of 2 % from the starting point).
One big question i have is for pct should i just go with tribulus,sustain alpha and toco-8??Or should i take some hcg as well?I mean is this cycle worth taking hcg or will i be ok with just the tribulus and susatin alpha?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Ok just to let u guys know whats going on with my zigzag methode,i finaly stopped the experiment after 4 weeks(40 mgs/2days-followed by 2 days off)The results werent very obvious i lost maybe 1%bodyfat and got a pound or 2 of muscle but i'm not shure its the t-bol that gave me that since i started a new training regiment at the same time that i started the cycle...I'm notsaying this type of cycle ins't good i just think the coumpound i choosed for it was'nt appropriate the half life of turanabol being 16 hours.A better one would be d-bol with a half life of 4 hrs.
anyway i started a "regular" cycle of turanabol only and i,m in my week 4 of it and planing of going on for 6 or 8 weeks at 40 mgs/day.So far i have relatively good results:6 lbs of mass and another drop of 1% in fat(total drop of 2 % from the starting point).
One big question i have is for pct should i just go with tribulus,sustain alpha and toco-8??Or should i take some hcg as well?I mean is this cycle worth taking hcg or will i be ok with just the tribulus and susatin alpha?

Tribulus? Where you been bro. That's so 90's.

PCT is PCT regardless of what you use.

 

[Varsearch]

Another outside the box thinker, I like that, granted you can't go wrong with the proven methods when done properly, but those proven methods had to start somewhere, good luck with the future of zig-zag you never know unless you try.