Why is my low row so damn weak?

[SouthernBell]

What am I lacking and how can I bring up my strength or is this normal?

On back day I usually hit the Wide lat pull downs first doing a pyramid set of 80lb then 90lb then 100lbs in the 12,10,8 rep range. I feel really strong in this exercise but when I get to the low row I can pull nearly that weight I usually have to start with about 50lbs and work my way to 70lbs. When I work out with hubby he can do more on the low row than the wide lat so why am I assbackwards? I usually do these two back to back and It dosen't matter which one I do first I am still weaker in the low row.

What is giving here. What part of the back are you using to pull? Could it be that I am doing something wrong?

SB

 

[spatts]

What is your form like on the pull down?

How weak/strong are you in other trap movements (rows)?

 

[RottenWillow]

Do you think you might unconciously be doing something to make the pulldowns easier than they should be? Maybe not pulling down all the way down? Or maybe using too much momentum or pulling too much with your biceps?

When I do rows I feel it more in the lower and inner lats and with pulldowns I feel it more in the upper and outer areas. If the weight difference isnt on account of form maybe its just a matter of being stronger in different areas of the back.

 

[SouthernBell]

On pull down I am usually at a slight angle not too much Pulling all the way down till the bar touches my upper chest. I try not to use any momentum but only the contraction of my lats as I pull down and then a slow release. I feel some soreness in my biceps but not alot. I also feel soreness in my traps area and the outside area of my lower lats.

I do bent over one arm rows with free weights and I usually can row 25 or 30 lbs dumbells for 10 or 12. I really don't know how to guage weither this is heavy or not because I don't have any other women around to compare to. Mabey compare is a bad choice of words but how do you know if You are strong in that area if you don't know what you should or could be doing.
I also do High row sometime and can do a 45lb plate on each side to start and work my way up to 55lbs on each side. Again I don't know what the strength factor is on this I just guage by me and Being I started out with 20lbs I have over double here too.

I am hoping my form isn't part the reason but I will lessen the weight and see. It took me over a year to work up to this weight because I did not want to sacrifice form but I will double check again.

SB

 

[spatts]

When you are doing lat pull downs, don't lean back very far. Squeeze your shoulder blades together, and stick your chest out/shoulders back. Squeeze your traps together through the WHOLE movement. Is that what you're doing? Pics? Vids?

 

[SouthernBell]

I will try to get some pic or vid. I think I am doing it that way at least the not leaning back to far. I don't squeeze my traps together though at least not purposly. I do however squeeze my shoulder blades together. I never thought of traps playing such a big role in wide lat pulldowns maybe this is where my weakness is. So is is that low row is not weak but that I am not executing wide lats correctly resulting in being able to pull more?

 

[bignate73]

the difference is usually in mid/lower trap strength. you use them to a lesser degree on the lat pulldown, and more lats on this movement. if you have strong lats, of course you are going to be stronger at pulldowns. start doing more rows, varieties of rows etc. focus on pinching your shoulder blades together at the top of the row, not shrugging up, but shrugging straight back. another thing i see people doing is trying to row...too low. they put themselves at a biomechanical disadvantage. make sure your forearms are moving the same direction as the cable. some people try to put the handle at their navel when they shouldnt be. so work on retracting your shoulder blades, first and foremost, your weight may go down but learn them right and the weight will catch up and pass quickly.

 

[SouthernBell]

Nate, so when doing the low row where am I supposed to be pulling to?

I am usually sitting at an angle for this movement is this right? I am pulling straight into my torso beneth my chest Solarplex (sp?)
and stragth back with the elbows. For a mental pic I prolly look like I am trying to stick my boobs out during the pull with shoulder blades squeezed together and elbow back.

Is this correct or should I be pulling higher?

SB

 

[spatts]

That sounds about right to me, for a "low row." Is the starting point lower than the ending point? In other words, are you still kinda pulling up?

I think of pull downs as lat work and rows as trap work, even though both hit both, and a close grip row will smash the lats. Where's your grip on the low row, did you say? This makes a HYUGE difference (wide vs close).

Also, "I don't squeeze my traps" and "I do squeeze my shoulder blades" doesn't make sense. You ARE squeezing your traps when you pinch your shoulder blades together...same as when you row. Your traps are more than a hunk of muscle on each side of your neck. They go to the middle of the back and extend all the way over to the edges of each shoulder blade.

Here's how I do them:

XXXXXXXXXXX

I know it's hard to tell in my pullover, but my back is arched tight and traps are squeezed together, chest out, and shoulders naturally pinned back because the traps are squeezed. I do this because that's exactly how I bench. I use the same stretegy for rows.

Have you ever considered starting back day with something a little more compound? Like deadlifts (real ones, not RDLS) or Barbell rows? These can also be done in the bench plane with back arched and traps squeezed. That really hits my traps and lats hard at the same time, plus it recruits alot of other muscles for the job, and to stabalize.

 

[SouthernBell]

Spatts, yes the starting point is lower than the ending point. Also my grip on the low row is close the handle I use is kinda a v shape with my hands vertical.

I hear ya on the traps thing I just never thought of traps being used for wide lat pull downs so I never consciencely used them. I just thought of pulling my shoulder blades back.

Your vid seems similar to what I am trying to do... Notice I say trying this is what I want to do but I have never watched myself so I don't know that it is what I am doing, If that makes sense.

I need to revamp my back day so your suggestion sounds good but one question I am not used to the training lingo what Is RDLS deads? I usually do deadlifts with an long bar or bar bells.

One more ques. what is barbell rows? I am sure I know them but just don't know the training name.

SB

 

[spatts]

SB, I wasn't meaning to use your traps more to pull down, but by pinching them, it' actually easier to ISOLATE the lats.

RDL = Romanian Deadlift (Isolation-hamstrings)
Deadlift = Pick the weight up off the floor (compound-whole body)

Barbell Rows:

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

[msboss]

If you're are doing the Lat Pulldowns before Low Rows you are pre exhausting the muscle group. When I do Low Rows I try to lean forward with my back erect. I don't roll my shoulders to far forward. As I pull back I concentrate on pulling with the Romboids/anterior delts/lats and try not to start bending at the elbow( bicep pulling) until I reach close to a 90 degree angle at the hip joint. Does this make any sense to you? I pull as long as I can with the arms straight and really squeezing the shoulder blades together, pushing chest forward and then incorporate the compound movement with the arms. I see alot of people pull to soon with their biceps. Hope this helped you.

msboss

 

[SouthernBell]

Spatts, I do the real deadlifts, but does it matter weither I use a bar or dumbells? I usually mix them up.

And I tried to open the url but it says it can't find the site.

MSboss, Makes perfect sense, I also try somewhat the same tecnique but I always seem to go alittle past 90 degrees. Will it hurt to go past or is it ok

SB

 

[spatts]

She also mentioned that this happens no matter what order she does them in (pull downs first or not).

Good suggestions, boss...

 

[msboss]

She also mentioned that this happens no matter what order she does them in (pull downs first or not).

Good suggestions, boss...

Oops! Missed that!

msboss

 

[RottenWillow]

Since we are talking kinesology I have a very simple Bench question. I have a big chest so I try to maximize the range of motion by lowering the bar to my collarbone instead of the nipple which would be a considerably shorter range of motion. My stepdad criticizes me bitterly for improper form and since I have no history with observing serious female lifters I am not sure whos right here, him or me.

Sorry to go off topic here moderaters. Please move if this should have been a new thread.

 

[spatts]

If you are benching to isolate your chest, then do whatever you have to do to isolate your chest. Not what I would do, but that doesn't mean much.

I bench to about 8" below the nipple, if that tells you anything. I don't use my chest to bench. At least it's not a primary mover; tirs, lats, shoulders.

 

[SouthernBell]

spatts, could you re-list that url, it is not working?

 

[spatts]

Done.

 

[msboss]

Neither one of you are 100% wrong. But by benching to your collarbone you are emphisizing more of the upper pec. Also, this can cause impingment to the shoulder joint which could hurt you in the long run. I think your best bet would be to stay with a regular bench but maybe try to come down a little bit lower on the chest. Not below it hwere the breast meets the ribs but between that point and the nipple. This "might" get you a little more range. You could use a bench machine which has no bar to get a better ROM but nothing does like a good flat bench. Hope that this has helped.

msboss

 

[SouthernBell]

wow, spatts ya one strong woman. I have never tried those but hey it looks fun. Back day is next monday I will start with the DL and then go straight to these. Something new I love it..... I will let you know how it goes.


Thanks

SB

 

[RottenWillow]

I think I end up working my front delts pretty hard which I dont intend to do. I make very poor gains on overhead press so I think I might unwittingly be overtraining my shoulders.

You go 8" BELOW the nipple? So you are lowering the bar completely below your boobs? That sounds like it would seem awkward, but I'll give it a try. Would lowering the bar right to the nipple and letting it compress a little into my chest to increase the ROM be a safe option?

 

[msboss]

Spatts, I do the real deadlifts, but does it matter weither I use a bar or dumbells? I usually mix them up.

And I tried to open the url but it says it can't find the site.

MSboss, Makes perfect sense, I also try somewhat the same tecnique but I always seem to go alittle past 90 degrees. Will it hurt to go past or is it ok

SB

I think by going to far past the 90 degrees you will put to much emphasize on the lower back and not get as great of a "squeeze" out of the upper back. It will give away some of the strength to that lower area. But, you are aware of this form and that is good. I hope you see the improvements you're looking for.

msboss

 

[SouthernBell]

Thanks Thanks Thanks to all the replys, I will put all this knowledge to work.

I will work at not going past 90degrees and see if this helps somewhat. There is a problem somewhere in my form I am sure so I will get someone to take a look. And hopefully I can work out all the kinks....


SB

 

[spatts]

You can't do a real deadlift with dbs.

If you are trying to isolate your chest DON'T BENCH LIKE ME. I'm a powerliter. You will still get good growth, but on the downside, you will bench HYUGE numbers.

XXXXXXXXXXX

As you can see, the bar lands right above my belt.

SB, you may want to alternate every week doing BB rows heavy and deads heavy...deads are HARD to perfect, and going into them or into BB rows with your back prefatigued is probably NOT a good idea. If you want a good artical on deadlift form, or the form on any major compound move, check the stickies on the powerlifting board.

Here's an old view of the difference between a BB bench and a PL bench. The first has no leg drive, flat on the back, bar hits high, arms wide, elbows out, etc...the second bench is traps tucked, legs driving back pressing the traps in the bench, elbows in and close to the body, and bar low to use the traps/lats/shoulders to press:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

[SouthernBell]

(You can't do a real deadlift with dbs. )

really. then what would that be called... . I do also do them with a long bar which I prefer but I sometime are outnumberd by the bozos using the bar to curl.

(you may want to alternate every week doing BB rows heavy and deads heavy...deads are HARD to perfect, and going into them or into BB rows with your back prefatigued is probably NOT a good idea. )

Spatts, I am glad you pointed this out. I would have prolly killed myself trying though... lol. I will try the BBrow on monday and see how it feels. I will start with just the bar to get the feel of it then work the weight up as weeks past.

Funny you mentioned the PL forum I was browsing there just a second ago I will check out the stickies but I hope they have pics because my training lingo sucks....

SB

 

[SouthernBell]

Spatts in that vid of you benching PL Is your back arched somewhat?

 

[spatts]

It's not an intended, dramatic arch, no. It's just a natural arch from having the traps squeezed together and driing back with the legs, and erectors tight. It's not forced at all.

When you do DB deadlifts, do you start upright, go down, and back up? If so, it's not a deadlift.

 

[SouthernBell]

When doing DB deads I start at the bottom just like when I do them with the long bar. I guess it wouldn't be consided DL because I don't always drop the weights at the bottom. I do however let the entire weight touch the ground before lifting again. (Hope this makes sense)

SB

 

[spatts]

Well, that sounds about a close to being a dedlift as it can be and still using dumbbells. I have to wonder if the back recruitment's the same though. Is your hand position the same as if it were a barbell?

 

[bignate73]

Well, that sounds about a close to being a dedlift as it can be and still using dumbbells. I have to wonder if the back recruitment's the same though. Is your hand position the same as if it were a barbell?

they are usually considered dbell squats in some circles, just because the hip motion isnt the same as a deadlift. now if someone is mimicking the motion of a deadlift, then its a dbell deadlift. many people think just because they are holding dbells at their sides and bending the knees, its a deadlift. not all squats have the weight up at the shoulder (as you know), so what constitutes the difference between exercises is the motion of the hip and torso (degree of back recruitment as you said)

 

[SouthernBell]

Spatts, I think the difference lies in the position of my hands, I don't think I have thought about this before you metioned it. My hands are prolly at somewhat an angle to start (I will pay more attention next time) I don't think that the weights are in a straight line in front of me. They are pulled close and straight up then back down following the contour of my legs and placed back to the ground but more to the sides of my feet in stead of in front because I am going straight down I would have to put them on my feet.

SB