well, remember the joos were givin land to them that wasn't theirs............by force! So it's a different situation............they were given a country. As for the black here in the states............I beleive that every individual in the end has to own up to his own fuckups............but some things are ingrained in the culture. What Vick did goes beyond any societal pressuring.......so I'm not even going to talk about him, what he did has no precedence going back to no injustice at no time in our human history, he crossed a line reserved for the worst our species has to offer..........so forget about him. But BRR does have a point that when you subculture a people for so long..........a counterculture will always form that the ruling class will not like, and it's done that way on purpose. But it does seem like things are getting worse in the black community..........especially how they treat women, that's been my biggest problem with them. I"ve never held their hustle against them.......they're born in the hole so they have to do what they have to do to eat. I don't condone it...........but I "understand". But how they treat women and how they treat animals is abborent. Portis pretty much confirmed that when he said Vicks' dogs were his dogs "to with what he likes"............so I'll bet there's alot of black people that don't necessarily agree with what Vick did..........but they also don't understand what all the fuss is about. And remember that it was only a few years ago that prison guards made inmates fight each and bet on them..........care to guess the respective race of the guards vs. the inmates? If you refused to fight they made sure you'd get some privilege or something taken away from you.............so I'll bet black people view this as some sort of thing where white people are up in arms over another black person doing something that white people have done "WITH HUMANS"...........and I would see the point to that............but it doesnt' excuse an individual from taking pleasure in torturing another living being..........be it person or animal................so in the end they still have to own up to this shit!