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When was it official that Dbol was only to be used to "jumpstart" a cycle?

Jenetic said:
Law of diminishing returns? Why?

The majority of people with problems don't incoporate the proper supplements amongst many other things.

The lipid profile is affected regardless which AAS you use. This is to be expected. Your cholesterol can easily be maintained with a combination of OTC supplements such as Policosanol, a clean diet, a realistic cycle duration of 8 weeks and ancilliary drugs such as nolvadex. Glucophage is also a possibility.

Most people have a problem with thier lipids already and they don't even know it. It's called a poor diet and it's evident with majority of users no matter how much the try to deny it. This is specifically in regards to people with a body fat percentage of approximately >15%. Most people with cholesterol issues are in that range and it's primarily diet related.

You will encounter some side effects regardless of AAS choice which are not life threatening. To what degree depends on your preparation.

Jenetic

That's absolutely correct in that lipid profiles are skewed regardless of what AAS you use. However, like anything else, the longer they are skewed the longer it takes to get back to baseline. 17AA's are the major offender in this. I realize liver toxicity is overrated but my main concern in running 17AA's over a long period of time is the dramatic effect is has on my HDL levels. There are plenty of presciption drugs that lower high LDL levels but there are only a few supplements - Policosanol, Omega 3,6,9, etc. that has been shown to raise low HDL levels. There is no drug on the market that does this and the supplements mentioned above do not have that pronounced of an impact. Afterall, they are "supplements".
 
SO Juice Authority, I guess you are saying that the benfits dont outway the risk of the lipid profile? How long or should I saw what is the longest YOU would run dbol or any 17aa drug alone 4wks,6wks,8? and have you ever run a dbol only cycle? thanks
 
small but working on it said:
SO Juice Authority, I guess you are saying that the benfits dont outway the risk of the lipid profile? How long or should I saw what is the longest YOU would run dbol or any 17aa drug alone 4wks,6wks,8? and have you ever run a dbol only cycle? thanks

Not necessarily. Jenetic raises some good points but one thing he is overlooking is a person's genetic disposition regarding lipid profiles. I was only speaking for myself. See, high cholesterol runs in my family. High cholesterol is more hereditary than anything else. Sure, diet plays a part but it mainly depends on your genes. When I use 17AAs for a long period of time it dramatically skews my lipid profiles and completely shuts down my HDL - the good cholesterol.
 
Juice Authority said:
Plus, running a 17AA for long periods of time is bound to greatly skew your lipid profile, especially shutting down your hdl to the single digit range. This is well documented.



This is what I was refering to Jenetic. 17aa steroids wreck havoc on hdl and ldl. This is the reason I dont use them longer than 4-6 weeks, not the liver issue.....


So, did the guy running 200mgs a day for 15 weeks get any of this tested?
 
Guvna said:
This is what I was refering to Jenetic. 17aa steroids wreck havoc on hdl and ldl. This is the reason I dont use them longer than 4-6 weeks, not the liver issue.....


So, did the guy running 200mgs a day for 15 weeks get any of this tested?

Of course he had those numbers tested. You owe me for making another international phone call. J/K LOL

Total Cholesterol: 151
Triglyceride: 98
HDL :47.8
LDL: 87

Jenetic
 
Jenetic said:
Of course he had those numbers tested. You owe me for making another international phone call. J/K LOL

Total Cholesterol: 151
Triglyceride: 98
HDL :47.8
LDL: 87

Jenetic


LOL....

holy hell those numbers are better than mine off-cycle and months clean......





so I wonder when they are coming out with that synthetic HDL......mmmmmmmmmmm
 
Juice Authority said:
Not necessarily. Jenetic raises some good points but one thing he is overlooking is a person's genetic disposition regarding lipid profiles. I was only speaking for myself. See, high cholesterol runs in my family. High cholesterol is more hereditary than anything else. Sure, diet plays a part but it mainly depends on your genes. When I use 17AAs for a long period of time it dramatically skews my lipid profiles and completely shuts down my HDL - the good cholesterol.

Thanks for sharing.

I haven't overlooked the genetic predisposition factor. This is common sense and self explanatory.

Regardless of your predisposition, your nutrtion is more than just a part and plays a major role.

Jenetic
 
Jenetic, I have to disagree on the Lipid aspect. It's very individual. My normal HDL/LDL as tested pre cycle are excellent. during a long cycle on anavar I checked my lipid profile and it was horrible. I don't recall but the HDL was 6 (?!?) and LDL was 240 or so. A terrible ratio.. Again, I stress the fact that pre-cycle the lipids were fine. I also took 40mg a day of policosanols, 30g of fishoils a day. And my diet is ages from being considered bad.

As a sidenote: You can search a thread back several months about giving my mom policosanols for several months straight with ZERO changes in her lipid profile.

I'm a bloodwork freak btw ;)
 
i hope this thread convinces more and more people to get blood work done before during and after cycles...
 
junk said:
Jenetic, I have to disagree on the Lipid aspect. It's very individual. My normal HDL/LDL as tested pre cycle are excellent. during a long cycle on anavar I checked my lipid profile and it was horrible. I don't recall but the HDL was 6 (?!?) and LDL was 240 or so. A terrible ratio.. Again, I stress the fact that pre-cycle the lipids were fine. I also took 40mg a day of policosanols, 30g of fishoils a day. And my diet is ages from being considered bad.

As a sidenote: You can search a thread back several months about giving my mom policosanols for several months straight with ZERO changes in her lipid profile.

I'm a bloodwork freak btw ;)

Thats not the first time I have heard that policosanol did nothing for someone. There is supposed to be another OTC supp that works like this does, I think that its called Choleve or something? Some form of Black tea extract? Ever here of this?
 
When you guys get bloodwork done and your numbers come back looking terrible, what do you tell the doctor?? Just spill your guts about juicing??
 
junk said:
Jenetic, I have to disagree on the Lipid aspect. It's very individual. My normal HDL/LDL as tested pre cycle are excellent. during a long cycle on anavar I checked my lipid profile and it was horrible. I don't recall but the HDL was 6 (?!?) and LDL was 240 or so. A terrible ratio.. Again, I stress the fact that pre-cycle the lipids were fine. I also took 40mg a day of policosanols, 30g of fishoils a day. And my diet is ages from being considered bad.

As a sidenote: You can search a thread back several months about giving my mom policosanols for several months straight with ZERO changes in her lipid profile.

I'm a bloodwork freak btw ;)

Thanks. That's precisely the point I was trying to make. The only difference between you and me is that pre-cycle my cholesterol levels are still high. 17AAs greatly affect the lipid ratio. I agree with you, Policonsanols didn't do much for me either.
 
junk said:
Jenetic, I have to disagree on the Lipid aspect. It's very individual. My normal HDL/LDL as tested pre cycle are excellent. during a long cycle on anavar I checked my lipid profile and it was horrible. I don't recall but the HDL was 6 (?!?) and LDL was 240 or so. A terrible ratio.. Again, I stress the fact that pre-cycle the lipids were fine. I also took 40mg a day of policosanols, 30g of fishoils a day. And my diet is ages from being considered bad.

Was the change in your lipids permanent?

Any particular reason you didn't incorporate niacin?

Jenetic
 
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The effect of AAS on the lipid profile is evident with all AAS. Some to a higher degree than others. What is important to understand is that this is not permanent and does reverse itself after cessation. It takes years for atherosclerosis to develop and manefist itself in to a life threatening disease.

Serum lipids in power athletes self-administering testosterone and anabolic steroids.
Alen M, Rahkila P, Marniemi J.


The purpose of the present investigation was to study the effects of testosterone and anabolic steroids on serum lipids in power athletes. Altogether 11 national top-level adult athletes completed the study. Five of them volunteered for the study group and the rest for controls. The follow-up consisted of 9 months of a strength training period. During the first 6 months, the subjects in the study group self-administered androgenic steroids on an average of 57 +/- 24.9 mg/day. The most interesting observation was the extremely low high-density lipoprotein (HDL) and HDL2 cholesterol concentrations of the androgen users. After 8 weeks of training, the study group had significantly (P less than 0.05) lower HDL cholesterol concentrations than the control group (0.53 +/- 0.11 and 1.14 +/- 0.19 mmol/l, respectively). This difference remained significant from 8 to 32 weeks of training. No systematic changes were observed in the control group. The HDL2 cholesterol concentration decreased by about 80% (P less than 0.01) and HDL3 cholesterol by about 55% (P less than 0.01) from the onset values in the study group. A substantial decrease in HDL cholesterol to total cholesterol and in HDL2 cholesterol to HDL3 cholesterol ratios were also noticed under the influence of exogenous androgens. The results of this study suggest that the sustained use of testosterone and anabolic steroids have a marked unfavorable effect on the pattern of HDL cholesterol in the serum of male power athletes.

Effects of androgenic-anabolic steroids on apolipoproteins and lipoprotein (a). Hartgens F, Rietjens G, Keizer HA, Kuipers H, Wolffenbuttel BH.

OBJECTIVES: To investigate the effects of two different regimens of androgenic-anabolic steroid (AAS) administration on serum lipid and lipoproteins, and recovery of these variables after drug cessation, as indicators of the risk for cardiovascular disease in healthy male strength athletes. METHODS: In a non-blinded study (study 1) serum lipoproteins and lipids were assessed in 19 subjects who self administered AASs for eight or 14 weeks, and in 16 non-using volunteers. In a randomised double blind, placebo controlled design, the effects of intramuscular administration of nandrolone decanoate (200 mg/week) for eight weeks on the same variables in 16 bodybuilders were studied (study 2). Fasting serum concentrations of total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol (HDL-C), HDL2-cholesterol (HDL2-C), HDL3-cholesterol (HDL3-C), apolipoprotein A1 (Apo-A1), apolipoprotein B (Apo-B), and lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a)) were determined. RESULTS: In study 1 AAS administration led to decreases in serum concentrations of HDL-C (from 1.08 (0.30) to 0.43 (0.22) mmol/l), HDL2-C (from 0.21 (0.18) to 0.05 (0.03) mmol/l), HDL3-C (from 0.87 (0.24) to 0.40 (0.20) mmol/l, and Apo-A1 (from 1.41 (0.27) to 0.71 (0.34) g/l), whereas Apo-B increased from 0.96 (0.13) to 1.32 (0.28) g/l. Serum Lp(a) declined from 189 (315) to 32 (63) U/l. Total cholesterol and triglycerides did not change significantly. Alterations after eight and 14 weeks of AAS administration were comparable. No changes occurred in the controls. Six weeks after AAS cessation, serum HDL-C, HDL2-C, Apo-A1, Apo-B, and Lp(a) had still not returned to baseline concentrations. Administration of AAS for 14 weeks was associated with slower recovery to pretreatment concentrations than administration for eight weeks. In study 2, nandrolone decanoate did not influence serum triglycerides, total cholesterol, HDL-C, HDL2-C, HDL3-C, Apo-A1, and Apo-B concentrations after four and eight weeks of intervention, nor six weeks after withdrawal. However, Lp(a) concentrations decreased significantly from 103 (68) to 65 (44) U/l in the nandrolone decanoate group, and in the placebo group a smaller reduction from 245 (245) to 201 (194) U/l was observed. Six weeks after the intervention period, Lp(a) concentrations had returned to baseline values in both groups. CONCLUSIONS: Self administration of several AASs simultaneously for eight or 14 weeks produces comparable profound unfavourable effects on lipids and lipoproteins, leading to an increased atherogenic lipid profile, despite a beneficial effect on Lp(a) concentration. The changes persist after AAS withdrawal, and normalisation depends on the duration of the drug abuse. Eight weeks of administration of nandrolone decanoate does not affect lipid and lipoprotein concentrations, although it may selectively reduce Lp(a) concentrations. The effect of this on atherogenesis remains to be established.

Reversibility of the effects on blood cells, lipids, liver function and hormones in former anabolic-androgenic steroid abusers.
Urhausen A, Torsten A, Wilfried K.


BACKGROUND: In contrast to the acute effects of anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse, the long-term risk profile of former long-term abusers (ExA) is less clear. METHODS: Blood parameters of 32 male bodybuilders and powerlifters were studied. Fifteen ExA had not been abusing AAS for at least 12-43 months on average (mean dosage 700 mg for 26 weeks per year over 9 years), 17 athletes (A) were still abusing AAS (750 mg for 33 weeks per 8 years). FINDINGS: Hemoglobin (+5%), leucocytes (+33%) and platelets (+38%) were significantly higher in A. Alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and aspartate aminotransferase (AST) were higher, cholinesterase activity (CHE) lower in A (65+/-55, 38+/-27 and 3719+/-1528U/l) compared to ExA (24+/-10, 18+/-11 and 6345+/-975U/l; each P<0.001) with normal values for gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase (gamma-GT) and bilirubin. ALT, AST and CHE correlated significantly with the extent (duration and weekly dosage, expressed as a point score) of AAS abuse in A (r=0.68, 0.57 and -0.62; each P<0.01). Total and LDL-cholesterol were similar, HDL-cholesterol was distinctly lower in A than in ExA (17+/-11 and 43+/-11 mg/dl; P<0.001) and correlated negatively with the extent of AAS abuse (r=-0.50; P<0.05). Testosterone and estradiol were significantly higher, while LH, FSH and the sexual-hormone-binding (SHB) protein were lower in A than in ExA (each P<0.001). Two ExA had testosterone levels below the normal range. INTERPRETATION: The alterations in cell counts, HDL-cholesterol, liver function and most hormones of the pituitary-testicular axis induced by a long-term abuse of AAS were reversible after stopping the medication for over 1 year. In some ExA, an increased ALT activity and a depressed testosterone synthesis were found.

Personally, I've been on a cycle that lasted over one year that consisted of various AAS. The only problem I encountered afterwards was an extreme suppresion of my HPTA which ultimately lead to a very long recovery process. Granted, my lipid profile, was not in the best shape during the cyle. I was on constantly and cycled my orals at 8 week intervals. Once again, I took many precautionary measures. The only thing that really messed with my body hard was usnic acid. Regardless, I was able to once again estbalish normal healthy values within 4-8 weeks. This was done with basic supplements and a diet that focussed on specific elements to repair these issues. This type of diet is far from the typical bodybuilder diet. The proper diet can have drug like effects and it's one of the reasons I always emphasize nutrition.

Current test readings:

Total Cholesterol: 135
Triglyceride: 88
HDL: 51
AST: 21
ALT: 23

Jenetic
 
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Jenetic said:
Was the change in your lipids permanent?

Any particular reason you didn't incorporate niacin?

Jenetic

Hey Jenetic, I didn't make another blood test since the last one cause
I'm waiting a few more weeks for all nolvadex and clomid to clear from
the body, then I'll know. But apparently, even without testing, it's know
that the rise in lipids is just temporary. I had this happen before on one
of my cycles. Had terrible ratio, but I've recovered. I'm very confident
that my PCT which included policasonals and lots of Nolva fixed most
of the damage. I'll let you know. BTW: I didn't incorporate Niacin, because
during my cycle I was convinced that the omega-3 along with the polis
will help and was concerned about hepatoxicity of niacin at doses needed
for lowering LDL. When I found out the levels it was end of cycle anyway.
 
junk said:
Hey Jenetic, I didn't make another blood test since the last one cause I'm waiting a few more weeks for all nolvadex and clomid to clear from
the body, then I'll know. But apparently, even without testing, it's know
that the rise in lipids is just temporary. I had this happen before on one of my cycles. Had terrible ratio, but I've recovered. I'm very confident that my PCT which included policasonals and lots of Nolva fixed most of the damage.
I'll let you know. BTW: I didn't incorporate Niacin, because during my cycle I was convinced that the omega-3 along with the polis will help and was concerned about hepatoxicity of niacin at doses needed for lowering LDL. When I found out the levels it was end of cycle anyway.

Keep me posted. Hit me with a PM when you know.

Niacin is actually the staple ingredient of my cholesterol stack. Make sure you get the non flush one otherwise it takes some getting used to.

All I was trying to say is that a negative lipid profile is one side effect amongst many that is only temporary, non life threatening and subsides after cessation of AAS intake. The same preventive and recovery methods need to be incorporated just like any other possible side effect. The way JA said things, it may have been interperted by some that Dbol is very dangerous, life threatening and shouldn't be taken for more than 4-6 weeks for the sake of the discussion. If a person has a genetic predisposition to high cholesterol and heart disease, I still wouldn't worry that much as long as cycle durations are approximately 8 weeks, bloodwork during and post cycle are incorporated for evaluation and the proper ancilliaries and supplements are included. If the person is that worried, paranoid and values their health that much simply don't use AAS.

Jenetic
 
Jenetic said:
If the person is that worried, paranoid and values their health that much simply don't use AAS.

That's what it comes down to, doesn't it?

Good work, Jenetic "the Don"

DIV

:chomp:
 
another advantage of nonflush niacin is that suppossedly it has no negative liver impact.

Did use of the noflush niacin keep your HDL levels normal-ish during an anavar cycle or other hdl-killer?


Jenetic said:
Keep me posted. Hit me with a PM when you know.

Niacin is actually the staple ingredient of my cholesterol stack. Make sure you get the non flush one otherwise it takes some getting used to.

All I was trying to say is that a negative lipid profile is one side effect amongst many that is only temporary, non life threatening and subsides after cessation of AAS intake. The same preventive and recovery methods need to be incorporated just like any other possible side effect. The way JA said things, it may have been interperted by some that Dbol is very dangerous, life threatening and shouldn't be taken for more than 4-6 weeks for the sake of the discussion. If a person has a genetic predisposition to high cholesterol and heart disease, I still wouldn't worry that much as long as cycle durations are approximately 8 weeks, bloodwork during and post cycle are incorporated for evaluation and the proper ancilliaries and supplements are included. If the person is that worried, paranoid and values their health that much simply don't use AAS.

Jenetic
 
geoboy said:
another advantage of nonflush niacin is that suppossedly it has no negative liver impact.

Did use of the noflush niacin keep your HDL levels normal-ish during an anavar cycle or other hdl-killer?

2,000-3000 mgs ED regular niacin. Either one is fine. Both of them have a potentially hepatoxic effect but it's nothing major. The time released version is primarily the one that is associated with hepatoxicity. With the regular version, start with 500 mgs and slowly build your tolerance to it.

Jenetic
 
Jenetic said:
2,000-3000 mgs ED regular niacin. Either one is fine. Both of them have a potentially hepatoxic effect but it's nothing major. The time released version is primarily the one that is associated with hepatoxicity. With the regular version, start with 500 mgs and slowly build your tolerance to it.

Jenetic

Just 500mg makes me itchy all over. My body probably goes crazy releasing
histamine. I guess 2000-3000 mg would make me look like an obsessed man
itching his body and being tomato red.

BTW: Niacin's extreme flushing for some people may be associated with
a defeciency in Omega-3 in favor for excessive Omega-6. I should probably
check this theory now that 50% of my body is DHA (LOL) taking 30g of
fishoils a day..hehe

JUNK

P.S.
I'll keep you updated Jenetic. From the HPTA stand of point I think I've
recovered extremely well from my last 18 weeks cycle, but I wonder
what the blood test would reveal.
 
junk said:
Just 500mg makes me itchy all over. My body probably goes crazy releasing
histamine. I guess 2000-3000 mg would make me look like an obsessed man
itching his body and being tomato red.

The first time I used niacin, I had the same reaction. It's similar to the first time taking clenbuterol when your heart starts racing and you get the shakes. Dramatic but subsides shortly as your body develops a tolerance to it. Otherwise, use the no flush version.

Jenetic
 
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