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HansNZ

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Saddam has gassed the Kurds, but US has gassed its own sailors.

US admits it tested nerve gas on its sailors

Matthew Engel in Washington
Saturday May 25, 2002
The Guardian

The US has admitted that it deliberately sprayed nerve gas on its sailors in the 1960s as part of a series of tests, and the government has begun contacting those involved to discover what damage may have been done to their health.
The tests used several of the poisons which the Americans are now most afraid may be used in a possible biological attack, including sarin, the lethal gas used in the Tokyo subway murders in 1995.

It was showered on to the deck and injected into the ventilation system of the USS George Eastman 31 years earlier, in a test with the gentle codename Flower Drum.

According to documents just released by the Pentagon, Flower Drum, together with other tests with names like Autumn Gold and Shady Grove, were part of Operation Shad (shipboard hazard and defence), which was designed to evaluate the weapons themselves, the forces' protective gear, and decontamination procedures.

The Pentagon started releasing the previously classified information about Project Shad after being pushed by a Democrat congressman from California, Mike Thompson. More than 600 ex-servicemen have now been contacted by the government, out of about 4,300 believed to have been involved.

"We are committed to helping every veteran who took part in these tests," the secretary of veterans' affairs, Anthony Principi, said.

"If we find any medical problems or disabilities we can attribute to Project Shad, we'll ensure these veterans receive the benefits they deserve."

Project Shad lasted from 1963 to 1970. Other potential weapons involved included SEB (staphylococcal enterotoxin B), which produces classic symptoms of food poisoning, and VX, the deadly nerve agent which the Americans believed was about to be manufactured in the Sudanese factory they bombed, apparently wrongly, in 1998 and which was detected by weapons inspectors in Iraq at about the same time.

Mr Thompson said there might have been up to 113 Shad tests, and he was alarmed by what he had learned.

"We now know that our military personnel were exposed to Sarin gas and VX nerve agent, which are both lethal, and other agents that are known carcinogens."

Monkeys were also used in the exercise so that their bodies could be examined. Details of most of the tests remain secret.

Dr Michael Kilpatrick, a medical official in the office of the assistant secretary of defence for health affairs, said it was unclear whether sailors were intentionally exposed to the germ and chemical toxins without the benefit of protective masks and gear.

It was also uncertain whether any had given their permission to become human guinea pigs in medical experiments with the deadly substances.

"When you read the over-arching plans for the testing, people were to be protected," he told the New York Times.

"But when we get to individual reports, we do not see things like informed consent or individual protection. We don't have the records for what, if any, protection was given to people."

A Pentagon official said their records and the ships' logs did not show anyone suffering serious health problems at the time, but admitted that the records were sketchy.

VX was used in a test called Fearless Johnny, also on the George Eastman. SEB was sprayed by planes over the USS Granville S Hall, five tugboats and parts of the Eniwetok Atoll, the US Pacific naval base in the Marshall Islands. SEB is unlikely to kill healthy soldiers, but could incapacitate them for up to a fortnight.
 
The War Thread: it has started !!!

Since we don't need 83 different threads on the war created by each EF strategists, war stuff will go here. As soon as the party starts, I'll open the thread and we guys/girls we'll have fun discussing about this 72 hours war as I expect it.

txtop.takeoff.ap.jpg
 
Cruise missile attack on a leadership target of opportunity

This isn't the full blown strike
 
damn, this is the 3rd war that i have lived through (Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, and now Iraq). Don't really count the Vietnam War, since i was born in 1972.

Usually, a generation goes through at least one war, but 3 (4 if you count) and i'm only 30yrs old. :( Hopefully this will be the last one i live through.
 
Oh shit its about to start, this is crazy I can't believe its happening. God bless our troops. 10:15 president will speak
---PEACE---Mad Max
 
jnuts said:
Cruise missile attack on a leadership target of opportunity

This isn't the full blown strike

they are just prepping the battlefield, and seeing what kind of anti-aircraft capabilities they have.
 
does shok come before aw or how is that workin dcup or is it both at sam time
?

im thinkin it shoulda been namd 'aw shit"
 
US took over Iraqi Radio network! Hacked in to give liberation message to Iraqies
 
supersizeme said:
don't pull the thang out
unless you plan to bang

Bombs over bahgdad!!! Dont even bang unless you plan to hit somethang!!
 
well, a perhaps bigger concern is now that hes in, when do you think somones gonna do some terrorism? next 2 weeks?
 
does shok come before aw or how is that workin dcup or is it both at sam time
?

im thinkin it shoulda been namd 'aw shit"

It depends MG if you see it coming it will be awe, but if you dont it will be shock and awe!

Awe Shit? I will put you it to the DOD and see if they will change it for you!:D

Sounds like they may have got a lot of Iraqi leadership! Gotta love the CIA, NSA and the Military!
 
They were saying we never bomb really during the daytime so if its morning there now, then around mid-afternoon tomm. at least in NY the real shit will start.
---PEACE---Mad Max
 
manny78 said:


they have next to nothing in temrs of AAA.....

But the have a shitload of SAMs. The area around Baghdad is called the Super MEZ (Missile Engagement Zone)
 
Well its really just one guy Saddam but he has all his ass kissing puppets below him!

And his sons! It seems to be a tomahawk attack based on ground intel of leadership as target! Also fiber optics cables may have been destroyed! They all ready have hacked into Iraqes media!
 
i salute our people in the military and i hope them all a safe return.

When we do a full out assult you will here just shit blowing up left and right just like the first war.
 
They say that Saddam and his troops are all throughout Bahgdad to use the civilians as a sort of "hostages" so that we dont do mass bombing, instead they want us to go door to door lookin for them. Just another act of an army and a leader that is showing nothing but cowardness.
 
I think it may take several months to conquer Baghdad proper.
 
Quiet! No well fires! Scuds! Missles! Maybe we cut out their communications! Or we got lucky and Tomahawk Saddam! I bet the predators are having fun flying around right now!
 
I live in a giant metropolis! Very silent now! Like after Sept 11! News ratings must be sky high!
 
Saddam was the target! He was meeting with his leadership! Bunker Busters Used Along with Tomahawk and F17!

May have got the SOB!
 
Wouldn't that be some shit, where did you here this????????We would have to get the sons to really effect them.
---PEACE---Mad Max
 
on nbc they just reported that bombing television and radio stations is "free game"...........sooooo if somebody blows up the CNN building, think they will report it as a"free game" or "an act of cowardly terrorism"?
 
Wouldn't that be some shit, where did you here this????????We would have to get the sons to really effect them.

White House! It's all over the news now!
 
Where is the iraqi retaliation?

I posted the same thing earlier! Maybe they did get him! I would think he would retaliate! Nothing just quiet! I'm sure they have predators and U2 along with the Sats buzzing around his bunker in case he did live! Try to get him on the run! But it is very quiet now!
 
I posted the same thing earlier! Maybe they did get him! I would think he would retaliate! Nothing just quiet! I'm sure they have predators and U2 along with the Sats buzzing around his bunker in case he did live! Try to get him on the run! But it is very quiet now!

On the other hand you could have had a double spy that set up the US and maybe we bombed a civilian bunker! Well we will have to wait and see! But I cant believe no retaliation, no oil fires etc etc!
 
I would be hopeful that they got Saddam, but in order to attack via cruise missle they have to prep hours in advance....so chances are if he was the intended target he probably escaped.
 
Saddam is alive, he is due to address the iraqi people very shortly. Fuck we didn't get him yet.
---PEACE---Mad Max
 
lol no shit he's alive...there's no way that guy would be hanging out in a bunker or cruising around in a jeep when he's knows what's coming. the guy is probably far underground somewhere deep in his network of tunnels hiding out, giving orders, surfing the internet. he's probably on bangbus.com right now downloading some of the good stuff
 
supersizeme said:
lol no shit he's alive...there's no way that guy would be hanging out in a bunker or cruising around in a jeep when he's knows what's coming. the guy is probably far underground somewhere deep in his network of tunnels hiding out, giving orders, surfing the internet. he's probably on bangbus.com right now downloading some of the good stuff


:lmao: :lmao:

You ain't right boy!
 
Saddam is not in Iraq... he is in Saudi Arabia...

Check this theory.

Of the 17 or so terrorists from 9/11... they were Saudi and Egyptian. None were Iraqi. The terrorist operations are headquartered out of Saudi Arabia. But they are our allies, no? Sure... but that is where Osama is... and it is where Saddam is, if he is smart.

So why attack Iraq? If we invaded Saudi Arabia... they produce a little over 30% of the world's oil... Iraq... in the low 20%. If we were to march into Saudi Arabia... we would have the shut down of 50% of the world's oil right there... we couldn't make the move, it would be too financially devistating.

So... move into Iraq... Capture a foothold... set up a sympathetic government... who will honor our oil needs... setting it up... to take out the big dog... Saudi Arabia...

That's the theory.

C-ditty
 
Dont be so sure. I think it was taped.
Reasoning for assumption....
1. It was a written speech. How long did it take him to write it, a couple hours, then he popped up on t.v., right after a bombing and doesnt mention the bombing?
2. He was blabbering about the allah is great shit over and over, and america is evil and committing crimes, etc. etc. Yet he never mentioned any thing specific, like perhaps the fact we just blew some shit up. This was ready to be put on after the attack had begun.
 
We will not here from terranoble for a while once he sees the sight. Its good to get your mind off the war for a little while.
---PEACE---Mad Max
 
He cannot take the risk to be live on TV as it will be too dangerous for himself to show his ass live ...Was a tape!
 
after listening to saddams speech if that all thats on tv over there i believe i would just shoot myself to end the misery!



RADAR
 
I'm pretty sure that wasn't even Saddam... he has a billion look-a-likes ... he's not in Iraq... we will capture a person who looks just like Saddam... and the real one will be sitting in Brazil.

C-ditty
 
i understand the CIA used to fill a lightbulb with LSD and place it in a small shitter. when someone flipped on the light, it would explode the acid all over them. were talking about a bit more than 900mcg that it takes for a full blown acid trip.

ever seen Rude Awakening?
 
The article states that everything about which you are trying to stir shit is "unclear". Also, consider the source. So what is your point?

Just in case you hadn't noticed, there is a difference between testing gas on military personnel who are wearing protective gear and using gas to intentionally kill citizens of your own country. Your lame attempt at demonstrating a parallel is just that.

Bad America. Bad! Bad!

Now, back under your rock.
 
Frackal said:
Where does it say our guys had protective gear?

Dr Michael Kilpatrick, a medical official in the office of the assistant secretary of defence for health affairs, said it was unclear whether sailors were intentionally exposed to the germ and chemical toxins without the benefit of protective masks and gear.

AND


When you read the over-arching plans for the testing, people were to be protected
 
Is there a chance that Germany, Russia, or China warn USA that if the attacks on Iraq don't stop that they will declare war on USA?
 
fistfullofsteel said:
Is there a chance that Germany, Russia, or China warn USA that if the attacks on Iraq don't stop that they will declare war on USA?

Noone will attack the USA for SAddam Hussein. There will be no consequences at all, except some diplomatic tensions.
 
Citruscide said:
Saddam is not in Iraq... he is in Saudi Arabia...

Check this theory.

Of the 17 or so terrorists from 9/11... they were Saudi and Egyptian. None were Iraqi. The terrorist operations are headquartered out of Saudi Arabia. But they are our allies, no? Sure... but that is where Osama is... and it is where Saddam is, if he is smart.

So why attack Iraq? If we invaded Saudi Arabia... they produce a little over 30% of the world's oil... Iraq... in the low 20%. If we were to march into Saudi Arabia... we would have the shut down of 50% of the world's oil right there... we couldn't make the move, it would be too financially devistating.

So... move into Iraq... Capture a foothold... set up a sympathetic government... who will honor our oil needs... setting it up... to take out the big dog... Saudi Arabia...

That's the theory.

C-ditty

I'm glad someone else has noticed what a bunch of pricks the Saudis are.
 
Hangfire said:
The article states that everything about which you are trying to stir shit is "unclear". Also, consider the source. So what is your point?

The source? US officials are the sources cited by the Guardian.

Just in case you hadn't noticed, there is a difference between testing gas on military personnel who are wearing protective gear and using gas to intentionally kill citizens of your own country. Your lame attempt at demonstrating a parallel is just that.

Exactly, UNCLEAR. And of course things will remain unclear while people try to cover their backs. The fact remains that people were exposed WITHOUT any of the protection the plan suggested was necessary but went unused.

Intentionally gassing your own citizens or your own sailors. It sounds like you are creating a division for the purposes of convenience. Neither sounds particularly ethical to me. At least the Kurds knew that Saddam was their enemy who had malicious intent towards them.
 
Last edited:
2/3's of the Iraqi conscript army ready to surrender

Sky News

'CONSCRIPTS TO SURRENDER'

Two-thirds of Iraq's conscript army are ready to surrender without a fight, according to US military sources in Kuwait.


Two army divisions totalling 20,000 troops based in the south of Iraq are set to give themselves up to Allied forces in nearby Kuwait, the sources told Sky News reporter Colin Brazier.

The sources said Iraq's 11th infantry and 51st mechanised divisions were "ready to capitulate".

They said troops from the 6th armoured division were also believed to be considering giving themselves up.

Brazier, with US troops in Kuwait, said recent intelligence briefings had reported the troops were badly motivated.

Asked why the conscripts would surrender, Sky's Foreign Affairs Editor Tim Marshall said: "They are underfed, underpaid and extremely scared."

Sky correspondent David Chater, in Baghdad, said there had been a lot of campaigning by Allied forces to encourage conscripts to give themselves up.

US planes have been dropping leaflets in Iraq urging Iraqi troops to surrender.

Chater said the decision was "no real surprise" - but the crucial matter was whether Saddam Hussein's elite Republican Guard would fight.

Last Updated: 07:03 UK, Thursday March 20, 2003
 
According to documents just released by the Pentagon, Flower Drum, together with other tests with names like Autumn Gold and Shady Grove, were part of Operation Shad (shipboard hazard and defense), which was designed to evaluate the weapons themselves, the forces' protective gear, and decontamination procedures.
*************************
Nothing new here.
The US Military tests on its Soldiers as safely as it knows how at the time.
When Nuclear testing was first done in the 40's, they thought Sunglasses were sufficient to protect soldiers in the field.
They know different now thanks to these tests..

Again, not a close comparison to what others have done
intentionally hansnz..
Go back to clipping your sheep now bro..
 
This was alleged to have happened over 40 years ago. At one time we also used to hang suspected witches and own black people. What does that have to do with anything now?

One day some dictator may march his army in to New Zealand. Will you bitch when we send our soldiers to bail your whiny European ass out?
 
Fast Twitch Fiber said:
This was alleged to have happened over 40 years ago. At one time we also used to hang suspected witches and own black people. What does that have to do with anything now?

Saddam's famous gas attack against the Kurds occurred nearly 20 years ago. So "what does that have to do with anything now?"

One day some dictator may march his army in to New Zealand. Will you bitch when we send our soldiers to bail your whiny European ass out?

I see you are displaying the renouned American knowledge of geography. New Zealand is not in Europe.

Typical American mentality - everyone owes you something. We owe you nothing. If some theoretical dictator did march into my country he would no doubt have been an American creation somewhat like Saddam. In any case the US wouldn't come and "save" us because we don't have any resources you need.
 
Last edited:
Re: 2/3's of the Iraqi conscript army ready to surrender

p0ink said:
Sky News

'CONSCRIPTS TO SURRENDER'

Two-thirds of Iraq's conscript army are ready to surrender without a fight, according to US military sources in Kuwait.


Two army divisions totalling 20,000 troops based in the south of Iraq are set to give themselves up to Allied forces in nearby Kuwait, the sources told Sky News reporter Colin Brazier.

The sources said Iraq's 11th infantry and 51st mechanised divisions were "ready to capitulate".

They said troops from the 6th armoured division were also believed to be considering giving themselves up.

Brazier, with US troops in Kuwait, said recent intelligence briefings had reported the troops were badly motivated.

Asked why the conscripts would surrender, Sky's Foreign Affairs Editor Tim Marshall said: "They are underfed, underpaid and extremely scared."

Sky correspondent David Chater, in Baghdad, said there had been a lot of campaigning by Allied forces to encourage conscripts to give themselves up.

US planes have been dropping leaflets in Iraq urging Iraqi troops to surrender.

Chater said the decision was "no real surprise" - but the crucial matter was whether Saddam Hussein's elite Republican Guard would fight.

Last Updated: 07:03 UK, Thursday March 20, 2003

That's sad :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: I was expecting a better show.
 
Re: 2/3's of the Iraqi conscript army ready to surrender

p0ink said:
Sky News

'CONSCRIPTS TO SURRENDER'

Two-thirds of Iraq's conscript army are ready to surrender without a fight, according to US military sources in Kuwait.


Two army divisions totalling 20,000 troops based in the south of Iraq are set to give themselves up to Allied forces in nearby Kuwait, the sources told Sky News reporter Colin Brazier.

The sources said Iraq's 11th infantry and 51st mechanised divisions were "ready to capitulate".

They said troops from the 6th armoured division were also believed to be considering giving themselves up.

Brazier, with US troops in Kuwait, said recent intelligence briefings had reported the troops were badly motivated.

Asked why the conscripts would surrender, Sky's Foreign Affairs Editor Tim Marshall said: "They are underfed, underpaid and extremely scared."

Sky correspondent David Chater, in Baghdad, said there had been a lot of campaigning by Allied forces to encourage conscripts to give themselves up.

US planes have been dropping leaflets in Iraq urging Iraqi troops to surrender.

Chater said the decision was "no real surprise" - but the crucial matter was whether Saddam Hussein's elite Republican Guard would fight.

Last Updated: 07:03 UK, Thursday March 20, 2003


No surprise here either. I was in Gulf War I and had the job of rounding up the cowards that surrendered. There is not a courageous soul among them. Also, the ridiculous reports that there will be 500,000 Iraqis killed are just stupid and reports of heavy American casualties are crazy. There is a higher likelyhood that we will kill more of our own with friendly fire than the Iraqi's will. That has always been a problem.

It also appears that the argument that we shouldn't attack Iraq because we cannot go after Al Qaeda at the same time has been disspelled. Anti-War protesters are idiots and chicken shits. We're doing a good thing and the future will show that Bush's leadership and action was responsible for radically ending the threat of terrorism. Terrorists are not going to be more active. They are cowards and we have them running scared.
 
HansNZ said:


Saddam's famous gas attack against the Kurds occurred nearly 20 years ago. So "what does that have to do with anything now?"


What does it have to do with anything now? A Lot considering Saddam is still in charge. Whoever ordered these "alleged" tests on US soldiers is not likely to still hold any power in the US military. That's assuming that this incident even ocurred at all.
 
Fast Twitch Fiber said:


What does it have to do with anything now? A Lot considering Saddam is still in charge. Whoever ordered these "alleged" tests on US soldiers is not likely to still hold any power in the US military. That's assuming that this incident even ocurred at all.

So you are playing up a time division for the purposes of saying that your case is "different".

I notice this time division has been conveniently overlooked while French bashing has been goingg on. We've heard endless comments about how the Americans saved everyone 60 years ago and before.

Typical double standard.
 
So you are playing up a time division for the purposes of saying that your case is "different".

No, that wasn't a time division. I'm pointing out that the same person who ordered the gas attacks on his own country and invaded his neighbor is still in charge.
 
Fast Twitch Fiber said:
No, that wasn't a time division. I'm pointing out that the same person who ordered the gas attacks on his own country and invaded his neighbor is still in charge.

OK then, for argument's sake I will accept your reply. Sadly though this brings up a whole new double standard. What about Ariel Sharon in Israel? He was committing war crimes against the Lebanese at much the same time as Saddam was gassing Kurds. Are the Americans giving him ultimatums to leave Israel?
 
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