Understanding AAS Dosing

[Realgains]

Newbie's and even some experienced bros often wonder about how much steroid they should take in order to gain at a decent rate.

Dose needed depends mainly on how close to, or how above you are form your natural max, or the maximum size you could attain as a natural.

Now you may ask what is ones natural max anyway....well as a general guide the average man of 5'9 or 10" can get to a fairly lean 190 without steroids. This takes smart training with infrequent low volume and fairly high intensity training, not to mention good rest and nutrition.

So if you are 5'10" and 160 pounds then you do not need steroids in order to make good gains.

If you are under your natural max but have put on some good mass as a natural then using simply 500 mg of test per week would give you good gains. You could also stack and make the cycle almost as good but less androgenic by doing 250 of test and 250 of Boldonone per week or 250 of test and 250 of Nandrolone per week.

In order to break through your natural max you will likely need larger doses. Using test as an example I would say that 500-750mg per week would be needed by the average guy in order to break past ones natural max providing diet, training and rest are in order.

Higher doses are needed to make gains as you get progressively larger than your natural max.

To give you idea what the really big boys take please read on.......

Top competitors routinely take up to 2 grams of test per week as well as GH and perhaps some insulin. Other gear may be used.
The freaky pro's commonly take up to 4 grams of test per week along with GH, IGF-1 and insulin. Other gear may be added as well.

I would recommend that you use as little gear as possible in order to see good gains but this takes some experimentation.
Hopes this helps.

RG

 

[Quadsweep]

Good post Real!

Quad

 

[Maxx Out]

Nice post!

 

[myasshurts]

What would you estimate the natural max to be for a person who is 6'1?

 

[firstenrgy]

Good post!
firstenrgy

 

[Realgains]

What would you estimate the natural max to be for a person who is 6'1?

Generally I would add 8-10 pounds for every inch about 5'10" so at 6'1" you should be able to get to about 215 at least, unless you are small boned quite rare actually. If you have a 7" wrist size you are medium boned. 7.5 and up and you are larged boned.

One also need to know if one is ectomorhic, mesomorhic or endomorphic or a combo of the above .

Guys that are really thin with not a lot of muscle mass and with a small or medium bone structure are ectomorhic in structure and should reduce their expectations. There are plenty of men over 6 feet tall that are ectomorphic. They can be most easily recognized at the gym by their narrowish shoulder structure and especially thin upper and lower legs .

True mesomorphs are rare. These men have a medium to perhaps medium large bone structure. They are naturally muscular and put on mass fairly quickly. Dorian Yates comes to mind here...come to think of it most pros are mesomorphic ,or at least almost so.

True endomorphs are not as rare as mesomorhs and are large boned, naturally strong and have a tendancy to put on a layer of fat. Most top power lifters are endomorhs or endo/meso.

Most men are a combo ecto/meso and as such should be able to attain to 215 at 6'1" with proper training, nutrition and rest.

 

[Hauge]

very good posts to those who for like their 2 nd cycle or even there first cycle go crazy with this shit. I dunno why they always think more is better. Ah well what can ya do except try and educate them like you did Real. Karma to ya.

 

[Willyumyum]

Great post!

YUM

 

[duff_rose]

Thanks for the info! I think a lot of newbies do go beyond what they need. I obviously did too much my first cycle.

 

[The Man Child]

No, not a good post, AWESOME POST!

I'd like to take it a step further with my own 2 cents...

It kills me to see guys that have been juicing for a year or two or even more taking huge amounts of gear. I read it somewhere else, but its a great quote "what ever happened to when a cycle meant something? When you pour your heart and soul into a low dose Test only cycle. Now a days people are using heavy doses and treat it as though it were just another 8 weeks out of their lives."

I think the key to getting the most out of your cycles is getting involved in your cycle. Devote 110% of your life to it. Stay moderate, and bust your ass. Remember, nothing and I mean nothing beats hard work!

 

[monkeyballs]

Good stuff RG. Keep it coming.

I agree that the typical doses that are passed around on this board are way too much. Newbie's being told that 100mg ED of winny is the only dose that will produce gains. Test doses that are about three times what has been shown to have effective results in clinical studies.

My first cycle was using Upjohn winny V at 50mg EOD for six weeks. The results were outstanding.

I also think that if High quality domestic human grade gear is used, the effective dose is generally much less than what is thought to be an acceptable min dose.

Animal posted that 20 mgs BTG is working wonders for him.
I've seen people bitching about TT at 40
and about IP at 80

 

[donkeydick]

.
Now you may ask what is ones natural max anyway....well as a general guide the average man of 5'9 or 10" can get to a fairly lean 190 without steroids.

So if you are 5'10" and 160 pounds then you do not need steroids in order to make good gains.

I disagree with this statement. If you are 5'10" and have 5% bodyfat, you would have to have freaky genetics to weigh 190 pounds. I'm about 5'10" 175 have done 3 cycles and I'm fucking ripped. It all depends on your genetics bros.

 

[Realgains]

Re: Re: Understanding AAS Dosing

I disagree with this statement. If you are 5'10" and have 5% bodyfat, you would have to have freaky genetics to weigh 190 pounds. I'm about 5'10" 175 have done 3 cycles and I'm fucking ripped. It all depends on your genetics bros.

I am quite certain that the average man at 5'10" can get to 190 lean(NOT ripped) without juice but a very good understanding of correct natural training is needed.

There is no natural that can be at natural max and be 5% body fat bro....when I said fairly lean I was not talking about 5%. If a natural tries to get below about 7% he will loose muscle mass.

Also at 5'10 and 175 ripped you are probably a litttle on the ectomorphic side bro, but that doesn't mean you don't look great...you probably do. You probably don't carry a lot of mass in the lower body because if you did then you would be heavier and ripped at 5'10".

 

[Silent Method]

Great post.

Realgains, I wonder, whats your take increasing the minimal doses for us who have not reached our "genetic limit," and the effect of that increased dose on the rate of progress? How about stacking to increase the rate of progress.

Before you answer, I must say that I agree on the notion that one should "use as little gear as possible in order to see good gains." However, many of us have differing opinions on what "good gains" are as a factor of rate of growth.

 

[Keep it beefy]

Re: Re: Re: Understanding AAS Dosing

I am quite certain that the average man at 5'10" can get to 190 lean(NOT ripped) without juice but a very good understanding of correct natural training is needed.

There is no natural that can be at natural max and be 5% body fat bro....when I said fairly lean I was not talking about 5%. If a natural tries to get below about 7% he will loose muscle mass.

Also at 5'10 and 175 ripped you are probably a litttle on the ectomorphic side bro, but that doesn't mean you don't look great...you probably do. You probably don't carry a lot of mass in the lower body because if you did then you would be heavier and ripped at 5'10".

very good point. i was 215 at 6 foot at around 10% before i started gear. and i have a lot of leg size. so much that, when i tell people what i weigh (230's), they always do a double take or whatever cause they wonder where it all is. if i had chicken legs, i'd probably be like 210 or something.

 

[Realgains]

Great post.

Realgains, I wonder, whats your take increasing the minimal doses for us who have not reached our "genetic limit," and the effect of that increased dose on the rate of progress? How about stacking to increase the rate of progress.

Before you answer, I must say that I agree on the notion that one should "use as little gear as possible in order to see good gains." However, many of us have differing opinions on what "good gains" are as a factor of rate of growth.

There is big difference between genetic limit and natural limit but I will assume that you are talking about natural limit. To reach your "genetic limit" requires huge amounts of gear.

Someone that is not yet at there natural max could use higher doses than I recommended and would probably gain at a slightly faster rate but remember this bro .....we need to consider side effects when calculating the dose. Someone MAY gain a little faster on a gram of test but I can assure you most men would experience some unwanted sides at this dose too. I do advocate pretty large doses of fast acting gear , although not very large amounts, but only for a 2 week on 4 week off cycle, since one is only "on" for two weeks, and rapid maximum saturation is needed in order to produce the best gains

Note this......
The human body can only gain so fast. The ratio between speed of gain and dose is not proportional, that is, a gram of test will not cause one to gain twice as fast as 500mg of test. Also, the body will not gain in a linear fashion week after week after week.

There seems to be a certain dose of gear that produces optimal gains for an individual yet nothing but the same gains but more sides at higher doses.

When looking for the best possible gains you need to experiment a little in order to find the dose of gear that gives you optimal gains. My recommendations where "general" recommendations. Then you need to run this dose for 8-10 or12 weeks. One usually sees best gains between weeks 2 and 6.

Also, two people could take the same amount of gear and gain at different speeds depending on genetics and proper training, nutrition and rest. Those that are wise trainee's and use a lowish volume and somewhat infrequent schedule(3-5 days per week) with plenty of rest and good nutrition are likely to gain better than those that train 6 days per week with high volume, no matter how much sleep and good nutrition they get.

When looking to achieve the very best gains in a cycle it is a very good idea to front load slower esters like test cyp, enanthate and especially sust, deca and EQ. For example..if you were going to do 500 of test cyp per week then you need to front load about 600mg on day one and then inject twice per week after that with the first injection starting three days after the front load. In this way blood hormone levels reach optimal levels quickly and gains begin sooner. In this way you can optimize and speed up your gains in a cycle without triggering more in the way of sides. Most men can handle front loads without trouble since hormone levels are still elevated somewhat slowly and not all at once.

I am all in favor of stacking gear. You can stack gear for two completely different reasons. #1. to make a cycle less androgenic yet plenty anabolic. A test/EQ stack would be a good example of this. As mentioned above, 250 of EQ and 250 of test will produce almost the same gains as 500 of test but will be less androgenic and cause fewer sides.
#2. The other reason people stack is to try to achieve better gains. Some hormones work best when paired with other hormones. An example of this would be test/tren. An explaination goes like this ......... some steroids work primarily via the Androgen receptor and others work more in non AR mediated ways. Nandrolone for example is great at the AR but poor in non AR mediated ways. Winny on the other hand produces gains via the AR but also via non AR mediated mechanisms much more so than deca and thats one reason why a winny and deca are a good combo the same could be said about deca and d-bol.
Testosterone is the only hormone with good activity at the AR and also via non AR mediated mechanisms. That is why test alone is a good choice.

Hope this helps.
RG

 

[Quadsweep]

STUCK!

 

[MadCow1]

You can stack gear for two completely different reasons. #1. to make a cycle less androgenic yet plenty anabolic. A test/EQ stack would be a good example of this. As mentioned above, 250 of EQ and 250 of test will produce almost the same gains as 500 of test but will be less androgenic and cause fewer sides.

What kills me is that within an hour someone will post asking about running a 250mg test + 250mg equip cycle and twenty people will answer:

"You need at least 500mg of test and 400mg of equipoise to see results from those drugs."

The newb ends up asking a follow-up about dbol which someone responds with the minimum 30mg ED (but don't exceed 4 weeks cause even 5 mgs ED for over 4 weeks will kill any human).

Now the 5'9" 165lbs. guy will be running 1 gram+ for his first cycle which will then lead to a 1.5 gram 2nd cycle and so on via his strict following of time on/off protocol where he never takes more than the minimum off.

And no matter how many times it is intelligently explained this will happen for all but a few. I am so thankful that I started before the internet thing. When people knew they could grow off 200mg of test or deca and 20mg of dbol daily.

As sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives....

 

[Silent Method]

Thanks for your reply. Nothing but good solid info here. Yes, I meant to say natural limit, not genetic limit. (I felt something wrong with that, hence the " " around genetic!)

#1. to make a cycle less androgenic yet plenty anabolic. A test/EQ stack would be a good example of this. As mentioned above, 250 of EQ and 250 of test will produce almost the same gains as 500 of test but will be less androgenic and cause fewer sides.
Can you point to some data for this or is this based on observation?

 

[MadCow1]

Can you point to some data for this or is this based on observation?

There's never any hard data on roids and combinations etc..Scientists aren't running these types of experiments and those that have been done (most likely Olymp. atheletes from Eastern Block) obviously aren't public domain.

That being said I did read a study about a decade ago where the conclusion was that the total mg dosage was the most important factor in the muscular weight gain achieved. This flew in the face of those designing the perfect combinations and stacks of drugs in the 80's. When it all came down, dosage was the overriding most important factor.

Now, when I think about side effects, drug choice plays a much larger role although sides are also related directly to total dosage. This is where a cycle can be manipulated a bit.

From my own experience and observations, I'd agree with the statement.

 

[Realgains]

Thanks for your reply. Nothing but good solid info here. Yes, I meant to say natural limit, not genetic limit. (I felt something wrong with that, hence the " " around genetic!)

#1. to make a cycle less androgenic yet plenty anabolic. A test/EQ stack would be a good example of this. As mentioned above, 250 of EQ and 250 of test will produce almost the same gains as 500 of test but will be less androgenic and cause fewer sides.
Can you point to some data for this or is this based on observation?

I don't have the scientific data but I will make a few comments.

#1 Boldenone is highly anabolic but less androgenic than test or tren. It is slightly more androgenic than nandrolone . #2.It does aromatize to estrogen but doesn't have a high affinity to do so. It aromatizes at about half the rate of test.
So you can see how it would be useful with a strong androgen in order to keep the androgen level moderate and bloat down yet keep the ananbolic component high.

Nandrolone is also highly anabolic and aromatizes at about a quarter the rate of test. It has a very high affinity for the AR. It is somewhat progestogenic however and progesterone can also cause bloat and gyno....still nandrolone causes much less bloat, or gyno for that matter, than does an equal amount of test. It is also the only steroid that is somewhat safe for the hairline as it converts to the very weak DHN and not the very strong androgen DHT form test.

You could also run straight Boldonone and get pretty decent results but a mix of test and boldenone proves to be better.

Nandrolone has been run by itself too. It is moderately affective at a 2mg per pound of body weight dose. It can give nice slow but steady gains without a lot of bloat. Proviron or a little test is needed in order to keep ones sex drive alive as nandrolone is very low in androgen.

Sorry for the rambling.

RG

 

[jdog9304]

About the EQ/Test cycle.
What do you think would be the best Test to use in conjunction with 400mg of EQ?
What i mean is which test would produce least sides at 250/week and promote soid lean gains?

 

[Realgains]

About the EQ/Test cycle.
What do you think would be the best Test to use in conjunction with 400mg of EQ?
What i mean is which test would produce least sides at 250/week and promote soid lean gains?

Test is test bro...they all give the same degree of sides. Some guys think prop gives less bloat but I don't think so....it's probably due to the lesser weekly dose of test that many guys do when using prop..... it has to do with volume and frequency of injections.
Actaully 500 of prop has more actual testosterone in it than 500 of cyp(very small) as cyp has a tiny bit more weight as ester.

You may notice sides sooner with faster esters of test but in the end they are all the same IMHO.
With 250 of test you will likely notice no sides bro.

Just remember that Boldenone has a long half life so start clomid between 17 and 21 days after your last injection.

 

[Dr.X]

I don't have a whole lot of cycle experience but what Realgains has said seems valid in 2 respects:
1. You need more juice to make gains the closer you are to your natural limit - even moreso if you are above your limit.
2. You're probably not going to maintain as much of those gains between cycles.

I got up to ~190-195 lbs naturally (5'9") and my cycle results (2 so far) have been nothing like the ones I read about claiming permanent 25lb gains, etc.
Not only do I gain less overall (12-20 lbs), but I only maintain probably 1/2-1/3 of my gains (5-8 lbs) - using clomid and HCG.

 

[juggernaut7]

yeah

start off at what gives u crazy gains,ull have to up it soon enuff,ride it while u can baby!good post/advice...always good to keep reminders like this up and goin!peace

 

[OKIE]

Re: Re: Understanding AAS Dosing

I disagree with this statement. If you are 5'10" and have 5% bodyfat, you would have to have freaky genetics to weigh 190 pounds. I'm about 5'10" 175 have done 3 cycles and I'm fucking ripped. It all depends on your genetics bros.

I would have to agree with RealGains on this one. I am 5'9" and weigh around 190lbs. I have done a couple of mild cycles a few years back, not including the one I just started, but I feel that I could have attained my current weight w/o gear. I am by no means ripped, I am around 10%-12% bf, which I consider fairly lean for most common purposes. I have also had 2 shoulder surgeries which diallowed me from lifting for almost 6 months at a time. During those times my weight dropped to about 165lbs and I was able to put the weight back on naturally. I would agree that a hard gainer or an ectomorph may not be able to reach this weight naturally, but I don't think you would need freaky genetics to obtain it either.

Good Post Real!!!!

 

[Dingo12]

I am a juicing female. I was wondering if anyone knows, just for interest the equivalent doses of test cyp. that would provide a test level equal to that of an adolescent male?

Just curious so I can put my dosing into context.

 

[ryker77]

Re: Re: Understanding AAS Dosing

I disagree with this statement. If you are 5'10" and have 5% bodyfat, you would have to have freaky genetics to weigh 190 pounds. I'm about 5'10" 175 have done 3 cycles and I'm fucking ripped. It all depends on your genetics bros.

You've done three cycles of what?? I sure hope you've not wasted money on gear to be at 175lbs. Please tells us what you took so as we can stay away from that kind of cycle/training.
BTW I'm not saying that you probably don't look and feel good. Cause on my first cycle I used test prop and tren at real low doses and toward the middle of the cycle I was a shredded 175. At least my upper body looked good.

 

[Realgains]

I don't have a whole lot of cycle experience but what Realgains has said seems valid in 2 respects:
1. You need more juice to make gains the closer you are to your natural limit - even moreso if you are above your limit.
2. You're probably not going to maintain as much of those gains between cycles.

I got up to ~190-195 lbs naturally (5'9") and my cycle results (2 so far) have been nothing like the ones I read about claiming permanent 25lb gains, etc.
Not only do I gain less overall (12-20 lbs), but I only maintain probably 1/2-1/3 of my gains (5-8 lbs) - using clomid and HCG.

Here is a perfect example of what I was talking about.....here is a bro that made it 190 fairly lean at 5"9"...thanks for the comments bro.

It is possible to keep up to 100% of ones actual muscle and strength gains, minus water and intracellular glycogen weight, up to ones natural limit. For example...a man can gan 20 pounds of pretty solid mass on his first cycle, if he is not at his natural limit. He can keep probably around 15 pounds of that gain providing proper clomid therapy was used, diet remains A-1 and training was" toned done" to natuarl training after the cycle. The loss is not actually muscle IMO. Once one breaks natural limit then I think you do loose muscle mass after a cycle.

Once one breaks ones natural limit is is indeed harder to keep the gains. The body always wants to go back down to natural limit while on natural test levels.

I do think that if one keeps training with a lower volume and perhaps less frequency(natural training) then one can keep some of the gains above natural limit without using steroids. I think that if a person that is say 20 pounds above natural limit stops using gear altogether then he should be able to keep about 10 of that gain. It doesn't sound logical but it is a fact ....you see steroids not only cause individual muscle cells to grow they also cause NEW cell growth .

 

[Realgains]

I am a juicing female. I was wondering if anyone knows, just for interest the equivalent doses of test cyp. that would provide a test level equal to that of an adolescent male?

Just curious so I can put my dosing into context.

I don't think you would want to mimic the test level of an adolescent male.........it would be too much IMO.

Test is a good choice for the ladies actually as it is not a foreign hormone to the female body and is already the most abundant female sex hormone.

A couple words of advice.....search for my post "Injectables guide for females by Realgains and wife"

Also stick with prop as it has a short half life(probably 2 days) and this gives females a chance to bail out of a cycle should bad sides start to come on.

My wife is on 50 mg of QV prop per week. She injects every other day with an insulin syringe and 27 guage 1.5 inch pin(they can be found)...no pain at all. 50 mg per week for 8-12 weeks is plenty unless you are a top competitor looking to turn pro.
I wouldn't run 50 for more than 12 weeks as time "on" is also palys a factor in the developement of androgenic sides.

 

[Dingo12]

I am not intending to mimic any male test levels - I was just curious as to what sort of equivalent levels a male would have during adolescence.

Just for my own interest really.

 

[ebear]

Dingo,

A 200-250mg shot of cyp or enanthate every 2 weeks will allow a female, female-to-male transsexual or non-test producing male to maintain normal adult test levels. Not quite sure what common adolescent levels are but I'd guess about twice to three times as much.

Ebear

 

[Keep it beefy]

I don't have a whole lot of cycle experience but what Realgains has said seems valid in 2 respects:
1. You need more juice to make gains the closer you are to your natural limit - even moreso if you are above your limit.
2. You're probably not going to maintain as much of those gains between cycles.

I got up to ~190-195 lbs naturally (5'9") and my cycle results (2 so far) have been nothing like the ones I read about claiming permanent 25lb gains, etc.
Not only do I gain less overall (12-20 lbs), but I only maintain probably 1/2-1/3 of my gains (5-8 lbs) - using clomid and HCG.

i'm in the same boat bro...sucks don't it? only thing is, low dosages work best for me.

 

[Keep it beefy]

I don't think you would want to mimic the test level of an adolescent male.........it would be too much IMO.

Test is a good choice for the ladies actually as it is not a foreign hormone to the female body and is already the most abundant female sex hormone.

A couple words of advice.....search for my post "Injectables guide for females by Realgains and wife"

Also stick with prop as it has a short half life(probably 2 days) and this gives females a chance to bail out of a cycle should bad sides start to come on.

My wife is on 50 mg of QV prop per week. She injects every other day with an insulin syringe and 27 guage 1.5 inch pin(they can be found)...no pain at all. 50 mg per week for 8-12 weeks is plenty unless you are a top competitor looking to turn pro.
I wouldn't run 50 for more than 12 weeks as time "on" is also palys a factor in the developement of androgenic sides.

whoa, that means your wifey is using all most as much test as a grown man at 70-100 mg per week. what sides does she exhibit? enlarged clit, deepening voice or anything? i would imagine that 50 mg would almost be enought to drop her voice some.

 

[Realgains]

whoa, that means your wifey is using all most as much test as a grown man at 70-100 mg per week. what sides does she exhibit? enlarged clit, deepening voice or anything? i would imagine that 50 mg would almost be enought to drop her voice some.

Bro in order for a male to see test levels of 70-100 he needs to take about 200-250 of synthetic test in ester every two weeks.

My wife is taking 12 mg every other day which is 48 mg per week.

So far no problems except an enlarged clit. Using prop so she can bail out if bad sides come on.

 

[Yll]

Good post Realgains

I was also able to go from 170 to 190 naturally at 5'10" with good training and diet. I been lifting for 2 years. I am living proof that those natural test levels will hold you back. Ive tried bulking up a few times on a clean diet and have got my weight up to almost 230 at times and still I end up right back in the lower 190's. If I made any gains from it it was probably 1 lb of muscle each time I bulked. I have to disagree with some people who say it takes up to 5 years to reach your natural potential. It really depends on the genetics/diet/training. I always wondered what kind of gains I would of made bulking up with AS. I guess theres a first time for everything.

 

[me2dammit]

Ok is this natural limit with a low bodyfat(7-10%?)

Isn't there another natural limit with higher body fat(13-18% on up?)

Couldn't juice help you get to your other natural limit and trick your body into keeping that muscle without all that fat, which you could easily get if you chose to be a fat ass?

Wouldn't the body naturaly hold more LBM with alot more fat, knowing it has the back up energy stores to have energy for all that LBM?

I'm not even tallking about 5%, just being lean. I think the body hates to have all that muscle and not alot of fat and has to be tricked into a new set point.

So someone that is 5'10" and just ate and ate and ate and then trained(no anabolics) could get up to 300lbs and have alot of muscle and fat.
Someone can also cycle and end up at 220 at 5'10" and have the same LBM as the guy at 300#, but has trouble maintaining it because he doesn't have enough fat. Not that he is 5%, he could be 9%, the body just doen't think its right.

I think it takes time for the body to see it can survive at that "FAT NATURAL LIMIT", once you over come the time factor, you should have no problem!

 

[body72]

Nice post Realgains i'm with u 100%.
It's good and also rare to see posts like this with really good infos.
Bye
Body

 

[NFG123]

Realgains and the rest of the board,

What is your opinion on a 500 mg T, 400 mg nandrolone (phenyl prop) cycle for 10-12 weeks?

NFG

 

[Nathan]

Good post.

 

[Realgains]

Realgains and the rest of the board,

What is your opinion on a 500 mg T, 400 mg nandrolone (phenyl prop) cycle for 10-12 weeks?

NFG

Test and nandrolone is a classic combo and your dose would be good for a man that was sure he was at least at his natural max weight or more. If you are below your natural max then you will not need as much to make good gains........why use more than you need to?

If you are not yet at your natural max you can try this........Test Cyp or enanthate front load at 600mg on day one and then 200 every 4 days. The Nadrolone phenylprop should start at 200 and then 200 every 3-4 days. Thats at least 700mg of gear.

 

[projection]

Realgains- Realgood posts as always.

I remember before I ever took AS, my older AS experienced buddy saying its like taking 2 steps forward and 1 step back. I've found this to be true, you jump way ahead then hopefully you can settle back above where you started. Thanks Realgains

 

[Discipline]

Real, as so many have already stated, thank you very much for this most informative thread. A thread like this is truly why I'm a member of this board. I wanted to particularly thank you for the information about the different body types. I feel that this type of info is crucial to one understanding their potential and how to work with it. Again, thanks bro!!

 

[Realgains]

 

[ISN_Man]

Realgains, great posts in this thread. A lot of informative info that is very useful. Thanks. I had a couple of questions for you.
For my first cycle, I was going to run roughly 400mg of Cyp/week with either Ox (dosing dependent upon which brand I use) or 200mg of deca/week. I figured that this was a pretty mild cycle, but definitely effective enough for a first-timer and someone who is a little below their natural potential (6'1'' @ 209 currently, in the 10% vicinity).
So, I was curious what you thought of this cycle, and if you thought the dosing was appropriate or if things would need to be changed/substituted for something else. Also, if was going to front load the Cyp, how would it go? I mean, I read some of the other posts in the thread in which you talked about front loading doses, but I was unsure of how the dosing should go after the first week. Any feedback you can throw my way would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much Realgains.

 

[Realgains]

Realgains, great posts in this thread. A lot of informative info that is very useful. Thanks. I had a couple of questions for you.
For my first cycle, I was going to run roughly 400mg of Cyp/week with either Ox (dosing dependent upon which brand I use) or 200mg of deca/week. I figured that this was a pretty mild cycle, but definitely effective enough for a first-timer and someone who is a little below their natural potential (6'1'' @ 209 currently, in the 10% vicinity).
So, I was curious what you thought of this cycle, and if you thought the dosing was appropriate or if things would need to be changed/substituted for something else. Also, if was going to front load the Cyp, how would it go? I mean, I read some of the other posts in the thread in which you talked about front loading doses, but I was unsure of how the dosing should go after the first week. Any feedback you can throw my way would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much Realgains.

I like the nandrolone better than the var for two reasons #1. It will give you better mass gains and #2. It is not 17aa so it is easy on the liver and cholesterol profile.

As far as I am concerned it is best to inject cyp and deca twice per week. This will give you better blood hormone levels and this leads to better gains. Also the "spiking" seen with once per week injections can be enough to trigger sides in the sensitive.

Front loading is VERY important IMO, especially when using the very slow esters such as nandrolone deconate, and boldenone. Front loads really help with getting gains moving as soon as possible and this leads to better overall gains and potentially less time "on". Blood hormone levels do not jump dramatically even with large loading doses ,as the hormones still need to be de-esterfied and this takes some time.....so there is NO reason to be afraid of loading doses. We do loading doses all the time with all sorts of drugs in the medical field.

Doing a loading dose of injectables is way less "harsh" than starting a cycle off with d-bol.
As far as I am concerned loading an injectable is better, for even a newbie, than using d-bol, yet d-bol is recommended so often for the newbie by some men.

You don't NEED to do loading doses but it is a very good idea.

You should front load about 5 days worth of gear plus what ever your regular injection will be. If you plan on doing 500 of test per week, injecting twice per week, then this works out to about 70mg per day and 70 X 5 days equals 350...then 350 plus your regular injection of 250 equals about 600 mg for a loading dose.( or a little more)


For you I would recommend this...... load the cyp and deca at 450- 600 each on day one. Don't inject more than 3cc in one spot as more than this can sometimes cause a sterile abscess to form that can be a pain and can also get infected.

Then I would recommend 200 of cyp and 200 of Deca every 4 days with the first injection coming 3 days after the loading dose.
This is 800mg of gear for every 8 days, aside from the loading week, and is plenty. I do not think you will need more than this to reach your goals IF you train properly, eat well and get plenty of sleep.

Test and deca is a classic stack that builds well and that is fairly "safe" at moderate doses. This stack will be almost as productive as 800 mg of test in 8 days but it will be much less androgenic.

Generally, unless one is perhaps doing a two week cycle, I do not recommend any 17 aa roids at all as they are not needed by the average man. If you are a competitive power lifter that doesn't want to add much weight to the body then there may be a place for anavar or Halo.
Hope this helps

RG

 

[ISN_Man]

Realgains, thanks very much for the response. I greatly appreciate it. I fully understand everything you said within the post, though I was a little caught off guard by the fact that you said to front load deca @ 600mg. I guess I'm just a little worried about completely losing my libido, even though I'd be on 400-500mg of test/week, and having a hard time at restoring endogenous test levels, due to how severe the supression can be with deca. Any how, I still really appreciate the response. Thanks again. Karma for you!

 

[Realgains]

Realgains, thanks very much for the response. I greatly appreciate it. I fully understand everything you said within the post, though I was a little caught off guard by the fact that you said to front load deca @ 600mg. I guess I'm just a little worried about completely losing my libido, even though I'd be on 400-500mg of test/week, and having a hard time at restoring endogenous test levels, due to how severe the supression can be with deca. Any how, I still really appreciate the response. Thanks again. Karma for you!

Nandrolone is very inhibitory on HPTA and even 200 per week will completely "shut one down". As a matter of fact most AAS are quite inhibitory at pretty low doses.

600 of nandrolone is not a large loading dose bro...don't worry about it. However by reviewing my math I have discovered that I over shot the loading dose a bit and 450-500 would be enough for good affect but 600 would be just fine.
As a side ....Bill Roberts, my favorite guru ,recommends a loading dose of 800mg of nandrolone on day one, if injecting 400mg as a normal weekly dose.

Remember now loading is just a way to get hormone levels up to muscle building levels fairly rapidly....hormone levels do not sky rocket with loading doses unless you did a front load of a roid that had a very short half life like d-bol....but we do not front load orals as it isn't needed.


In regard to sex drive....even 200 of test per week will allow you to keep good sex drive and it doesn't matter how much nandrolone you take.


RG

 

[solidspine]

Very informative post,


Now explain the metric system and we are set.

 

[shadylask3]

thanx
very helpful post

 

[Baby Gorilla]

Great info....karma sent....

I've had goals, but never wanted to do high levels of AAS. Your post lets me know I'm nearing my natural max potential. If going higher means those kinds of AAS dosing, I'll be happy with my natural max.

Thanks.