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Training to Failure.
- Thread starter Cosmonaut
- Start date
ghettostudmuffin
New member
No, that is not going to failure. That is training 1 rep shy of failure.
Training to failure is not being able to finish your final rep. Say you do 9 reps and the 9th was hard and you attempt the 10th rep, but can't get it all the way up and stall out and can't complete it, that is training to failure.
IMHO, it is totally unnecessary and just places additional strain on the Central Nervous System(CNS).
As long as you know that the last rep you can complete is reall the last 1(which comes from some experience) then just do that. You can still gain reps and add weight just like you can training 1 rep shy of failure. I never purposely train to failure and might accidentally hit real failuir once every couple of workouts on maybe 1 set!
So, keep up what you're doing. If you did 9 reps and you know that's all you could do, then next workout go for 10 reps. If you can't then just do 9 again and the next you will hit 10, but if you can then do 10 reps and then add 5lbs next workout and do as many as you can and repeat.
You can progress the exact same way as someone that trains to failure. It's not needed imo, but some like to train that way.
Training to failure is not being able to finish your final rep. Say you do 9 reps and the 9th was hard and you attempt the 10th rep, but can't get it all the way up and stall out and can't complete it, that is training to failure.
IMHO, it is totally unnecessary and just places additional strain on the Central Nervous System(CNS).
As long as you know that the last rep you can complete is reall the last 1(which comes from some experience) then just do that. You can still gain reps and add weight just like you can training 1 rep shy of failure. I never purposely train to failure and might accidentally hit real failuir once every couple of workouts on maybe 1 set!
So, keep up what you're doing. If you did 9 reps and you know that's all you could do, then next workout go for 10 reps. If you can't then just do 9 again and the next you will hit 10, but if you can then do 10 reps and then add 5lbs next workout and do as many as you can and repeat.
You can progress the exact same way as someone that trains to failure. It's not needed imo, but some like to train that way.
GhettoStudMuffin said:
Great information as always!! Welcome to the boards brother!! Yes, failure means just that. Not being able to continue the set. Im real big on training to failure, but people are making gains both ways so it all comes down to experimenting and trying different methods to see what works best for you. Occasionally its good to change things up too.
mad_monkey59
New member
Many, if not all pros train past failure, i know this sounds contradictory so let me explain.
Train to the point that you can no longer lift the weight in good form(failure). Training past failure is adopting a technique in which the 2lbs or so, that is stopping you from continuing with your set is removed from the bar, and you can now continue with your set until you hit failure again, in which case you can repeat the method, or finish the set.
Some of these techniques are, partial reps, negative reps (with spotter), partner assisted reps, and my personal favourite a strip set, to name but a few.
Tom Platz is famous for training to the point where if someone lifted the weight for him, he physically couldn't slow it down when it dropped, now that's intensity!!!
Obviously, constant use can lead to over-training, so if your new to the sport I would do it sparingly, if at all.
Train to the point that you can no longer lift the weight in good form(failure). Training past failure is adopting a technique in which the 2lbs or so, that is stopping you from continuing with your set is removed from the bar, and you can now continue with your set until you hit failure again, in which case you can repeat the method, or finish the set.
Some of these techniques are, partial reps, negative reps (with spotter), partner assisted reps, and my personal favourite a strip set, to name but a few.
Tom Platz is famous for training to the point where if someone lifted the weight for him, he physically couldn't slow it down when it dropped, now that's intensity!!!
Obviously, constant use can lead to over-training, so if your new to the sport I would do it sparingly, if at all.
Cosmonaut
New member
Yeah, the reason i dont go all out is i've overtrained 3 times since the summer for varous dumb reasons and dont want to put extra strain on the CNS. It's actaully pretty easy for me to judge whether i can perform the last set or not and i always progress so i was just making sure. Thanks.GhettoStudMuffin said:
ghettostudmuffin
New member
No problem.
Some people have a very strong or adaptive CNS and need that extra strain or stimulation to make optimal progress whereas some people like me respond great to just enough intensity like training 1 rep shy of failure and anything more just stresses me out.
Use whatever works for you.
Some people have a very strong or adaptive CNS and need that extra strain or stimulation to make optimal progress whereas some people like me respond great to just enough intensity like training 1 rep shy of failure and anything more just stresses me out.
Use whatever works for you.
JohnRobHolmes
Well-known member
i have personally found that training to failure puts me out for days at a time. going all out like Platz makes sure that i cant do anything with that muscle set for at least 3 days. i try to train for everyday, usable, enjoyable strength- so not having use of a muscle group because of soreness is just plain wasteful of my time and silly IMO. if your goals are size or gym numbers, then you could train till failure. just depends on your body and goals. welcome to the board man!
mad_monkey59
New member
Remember the first time you went to the gym, and couldn't move for a week? But after going for it solid for a month or so, the same routine didn't produce the same tightness in the muscle, the same amount of fatigue... the body adapts to the routine, it gets stronger, so although going to failure or past it will initially lead to a sore muscle group for a couple of days or so, ultimatley the muscle will adapt and you will no longer feel the same pain.
It is the same principle of raising the weight each workout, make the muscle work harder; create more hypertrophy, and as a result it grows faster to adapt to the new stimulous...
muscles are lazy, they don't grow unless they have to.
It is the same principle of raising the weight each workout, make the muscle work harder; create more hypertrophy, and as a result it grows faster to adapt to the new stimulous...
muscles are lazy, they don't grow unless they have to.
Phreezer_Machine
New member
Training to failure imo is over rated... EMG studies show that muscles are actually workerd harder by training on the threshold of failure rather than to failure and beyond (EG Negatives after immediatly completing a set).
InTraining
New member
After I made a thread about this a few weeks and got some good responses I decided that I would take my training 1-2 reps shy of failure(my goal is growth).
WOW is all I can say. Training to failure was getting me nowhere and most likely preventing any big gains I should have made.
The gains are starting to roll in again and this is how I am going to train from now on.
IMO failure is overrated for muscle growth. All it does is lengthen recovery time with minimal results compared to going a couple reps shy of it.
The only time I would advocate going to failure is on the DC routine which I did and got a lot of results from. Analyzing it further shows that it has ultra low volume(1 set per muscle group) and that muscles are trained 2 times every 8 days(sometimes more if the trainee doesn't have great recovery abilities). So these two factors along with the constant progressing overload of weight makes this program work.
WOW is all I can say. Training to failure was getting me nowhere and most likely preventing any big gains I should have made.
The gains are starting to roll in again and this is how I am going to train from now on.
IMO failure is overrated for muscle growth. All it does is lengthen recovery time with minimal results compared to going a couple reps shy of it.
The only time I would advocate going to failure is on the DC routine which I did and got a lot of results from. Analyzing it further shows that it has ultra low volume(1 set per muscle group) and that muscles are trained 2 times every 8 days(sometimes more if the trainee doesn't have great recovery abilities). So these two factors along with the constant progressing overload of weight makes this program work.
InTraining
New member
BOOEY said:
Definitely a possiblity for sure. Also I train muscle groups 2x per week and that coupled with failure would have an even more profound effect on recovery.
Do you train muscle groups 1x per week? I think failure can be very useful in that case, with such "low" frequency training to failure prevents devoltion(spelling) since it will take a longer time to recover.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
I've been training for almost 3 months now and I have probably gone to failure on maybe 5 sets TOTAL the whole time by ACCIDENT.
Not necessary at all for progress, but if you like training to failure and have a fast and/or very tolerant recover ability than go for it.
Not necessary at all for progress, but if you like training to failure and have a fast and/or very tolerant recover ability than go for it.
C
curgeo
Guest
One a side note.....When you do train to failure or just when you train.....Make sure to help your recovery by giving your body the proper nutrients after training......and also do things to stimulate recovery of the overly taxed area....Such as:
Ice area
Take a shower and put it on cold for 30sec and then hot for 30sec....alternating hot and cold will flush blood in and out of the muscle, helping recovery.
Make sure not to train the muscle again (in most cases....with the exception of maybe 30percent 1rm for recovery) hard until any DOMS goes away.
Massage the area to stimulate blood flow and allieviate scar tissue buildup.
Ice area
Take a shower and put it on cold for 30sec and then hot for 30sec....alternating hot and cold will flush blood in and out of the muscle, helping recovery.
Make sure not to train the muscle again (in most cases....with the exception of maybe 30percent 1rm for recovery) hard until any DOMS goes away.
Massage the area to stimulate blood flow and allieviate scar tissue buildup.
BOOEY
Banned
InTraining said:
I train delts, traps, tris, and calves twice a week. Everything else is once a week. I've tried eliminating failure from my entire workout this past summer and didn't like it at all. Could be a little pyschological but I tend to progress in weight and reps a lot quicker when I'm hitting failure on my main exercises.
mad_monkey59
New member
In Training: Atrophy is the word that describes the shrinking of a muscle due to lack of activity, nutrition etc. 
Training a muscle group to failure and beyond twice a week, will lead to overtraining.
If you only work a bodypart once a week, and you don't go to failure, it is my opinion that your are not training hard enough, and your results will suffer accordingly, mine certainly would.
Training a muscle group to failure and beyond twice a week, will lead to overtraining.
If you only work a bodypart once a week, and you don't go to failure, it is my opinion that your are not training hard enough, and your results will suffer accordingly, mine certainly would.
InTraining
New member
mad_monkey59 said:In Training: Atrophy is the word that describes the shrinking of a muscle due to lack of activity, nutrition etc.
Training a muscle group to failure and beyond twice a week, will lead to overtraining.
If you only work a bodypart once a week, and you don't go to failure, it is my opinion that your are not training hard enough, and your results will suffer accordingly, mine certainly would.
That's not the word...it is a word for when muscles will go backwards in strength, not necessarily size....anyways like you said it's basically because one isn't training hard enough especially since the muscles will recover in less than a week.
mad_monkey59
New member
Im not sure about the strength side of it, but if a muscle shrinks due to the reasons I've mentioned it is called atrophy...
"Atrophy is the wasting away of a normally developed organ or tissue due to degeneration of cells. This may occur through undernourishment, disuse, or aging. For example, muscle atrophy is the condition resulting from reduced muscle mass which is due to disuse of the muscles."
-neurolab.jsc.nasa.gov/glossab.htm
I was sure that is what you were saying, I apologize if it wasn't.
"Atrophy is the wasting away of a normally developed organ or tissue due to degeneration of cells. This may occur through undernourishment, disuse, or aging. For example, muscle atrophy is the condition resulting from reduced muscle mass which is due to disuse of the muscles."
-neurolab.jsc.nasa.gov/glossab.htm
I was sure that is what you were saying, I apologize if it wasn't.
InTraining
New member
mad_monkey59 said:
Sorry if I came off a bit strong...wasn't my intention
I read an article by Christian Thibideau(sp) awhile back concerning training splits and how if the muscle is not worked often enough ______ takes place.
He used the example of training muscles once a week or so and how the volume and intensity must be very high.
I will try to find that article and the word I am talking about!
EDIT: found it: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459292
involution was the word i was thinking of
Last edited:
mad_monkey59
New member
InTraining said:Sorry if I came off a bit strong...wasn't my intention
I read an article by Christian Thibideau(sp) awhile back concerning training splits and how if the muscle is not worked often enough ______ takes place.
He used the example of training muscles once a week or so and how the volume and intensity must be very high.
I will try to find that article and the word I am talking about!
EDIT: found it: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459292
involution was the word i was thinking of
I googled it... its a different word for the same thing...
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define:involution&meta=
J
ghettostudmuffin
New member
IF you like to train to failure than do it, BUT it is not necessary to say it is needed for optimal strength and size building and in fact I think science proves it is not needed. Not saying it doesn't work, it's just causing more strain and fatigue than I think is necessary, but that's just me and knowing how I respond to it.
"If you only work a bodypart once a week, and you don't go to failure, it is my opinion that your are not training hard enough, and your results will suffer accordingly, mine certainly would."
This is totally bogus bro, sorry but it is. Check how powerlifters and weightlifters train to see where I'm coming from. I train a 4 day split training each muscle once a week and I don't go to falure at all unless by accident. I make as good gains as anyone training on any other method to failure because the only difference between training to failure and training 1 rep shy of failure like I do is incurred fatigue imo. You incurr less fatigue by stopping on the last rep you can complete. In fact, the only difference between that and training to momentary muscular failure is a FAILED rep. Who's to say it stimulated anymore growth than the last rep you actually could complete? I get stronger every week and consistently bigger using more volume and frequency than in the past training to failure and I make better gains now than I did then mainly becausing I'm not fatigueing myself as much as I used to. It has almost become dogma with training that one must go to failure to make optimal gains when scores of powerlifters, weightlifters, strong men and old school bodybuilders can say it simply isn't a requirement to get bigger and stronger.
I will say that some people need to hammer the fuck out of their body to get strength and/or size gains, but there are many people like me that make great gains by just stopping on the last rep we can complete because we don't need as much to get the gains AND/OR we can only tolerate so much total intensity rather than volume. What makes a set to failure harder than the set stopped on the last rep able to complete? Not much imo. The guy that went to failure with his set did the same rep the guy that stopped 1 rep shy of failure did and both would agree that it was a hard rep. The only difference is that the guy that trained to failure needlessly stressed and strained himself more than the guy that stopped on the last rep he could complete. That's it.
Arthur Jones mainly is responsible for the current thinking that that failed rep some how stimulates growth. Sorry, but that is only a theory and has never been scientifically proven. I can teel you what has been scientifically proven. Irregardless of whether you train to failure or not, a muscle will grow by adapting to greater than normal stress. Whether that means you did 1 more rep than normal, lifted heavier weight, did more sets or decreased rep time or whatever, it will adapt. In none of those methods is training to failure actually indicated as a requirement to cause adaptation. I am done.
"If you only work a bodypart once a week, and you don't go to failure, it is my opinion that your are not training hard enough, and your results will suffer accordingly, mine certainly would."
This is totally bogus bro, sorry but it is. Check how powerlifters and weightlifters train to see where I'm coming from. I train a 4 day split training each muscle once a week and I don't go to falure at all unless by accident. I make as good gains as anyone training on any other method to failure because the only difference between training to failure and training 1 rep shy of failure like I do is incurred fatigue imo. You incurr less fatigue by stopping on the last rep you can complete. In fact, the only difference between that and training to momentary muscular failure is a FAILED rep. Who's to say it stimulated anymore growth than the last rep you actually could complete? I get stronger every week and consistently bigger using more volume and frequency than in the past training to failure and I make better gains now than I did then mainly becausing I'm not fatigueing myself as much as I used to. It has almost become dogma with training that one must go to failure to make optimal gains when scores of powerlifters, weightlifters, strong men and old school bodybuilders can say it simply isn't a requirement to get bigger and stronger.
I will say that some people need to hammer the fuck out of their body to get strength and/or size gains, but there are many people like me that make great gains by just stopping on the last rep we can complete because we don't need as much to get the gains AND/OR we can only tolerate so much total intensity rather than volume. What makes a set to failure harder than the set stopped on the last rep able to complete? Not much imo. The guy that went to failure with his set did the same rep the guy that stopped 1 rep shy of failure did and both would agree that it was a hard rep. The only difference is that the guy that trained to failure needlessly stressed and strained himself more than the guy that stopped on the last rep he could complete. That's it.
Arthur Jones mainly is responsible for the current thinking that that failed rep some how stimulates growth. Sorry, but that is only a theory and has never been scientifically proven. I can teel you what has been scientifically proven. Irregardless of whether you train to failure or not, a muscle will grow by adapting to greater than normal stress. Whether that means you did 1 more rep than normal, lifted heavier weight, did more sets or decreased rep time or whatever, it will adapt. In none of those methods is training to failure actually indicated as a requirement to cause adaptation. I am done.
JohnRobHolmes
Well-known member
i just remembered the first few years i would break dance. it was like going to failure every time, because i was weak and breaking is some hard shit on the body. my strength went nowhere after a short time, but my endurance increased a lot. i got better balance after a while, but then my strength got weaker still because balance makes up for strong muscles. long story short, breaking too much caused little strength increase.
i trained the same way in my high school weight training. classic pyramid and burnout style of working out that many older coaches use. in 5 months of training i barely managed to bench my weight. within just a few months of my current routine where i have failed on only one single rep (i dont have a spotter so i know) i can now bench past my weight in a 5x5. my body simply hates failure as much as my father hates his life.
i trained the same way in my high school weight training. classic pyramid and burnout style of working out that many older coaches use. in 5 months of training i barely managed to bench my weight. within just a few months of my current routine where i have failed on only one single rep (i dont have a spotter so i know) i can now bench past my weight in a 5x5. my body simply hates failure as much as my father hates his life.
mad_monkey59
New member
Okay, I see your point that training to the point where you are one rep shy of failing, and then attempting the rep only to get a quater of the way and then failing, is a bad idea.
But, what I am saying is that logically, Hypertrophy is caused by damage to the muscle fibres through resistence training. The more damage caused to the fibres through training equats, logically to more hypertrophy... more growth.
So, in context, that quater rep will not help... but performing a strip set, or a partner assisted rep when failure is reached, extending the set, forcing the muscle to work harder, past what they normally would, causing more hypertrophy, causing more growth.
I have said this before, but it is the same principle as increasing the weight. You make the muscle work harder... it grows faster.
Ultimately, you say that you have seen studies saying that this doesn't work, you say look at how the pros train...
Tom Platz - Trained past failure.
Arny - Invented methods for going through failure...
Coleman - Once said that his workout hadn't begun until he hits failure.
I have seen studies that say failure is bad... I have seen twice as many saying that failure is the only way to get the full potential from your muscles.
The only concern, logically is overtraining - hence my previous post. But if you eat right, sleep right, and perform these techniques in moderation, then you will not overtrain.
Ultimately, I care not if I get flamed on this matter, if I got a quote wrong, or if the 'latest edition of flex' says otherwise... it works for me, it works for everyone I know... and thats good enough.
But, what I am saying is that logically, Hypertrophy is caused by damage to the muscle fibres through resistence training. The more damage caused to the fibres through training equats, logically to more hypertrophy... more growth.
So, in context, that quater rep will not help... but performing a strip set, or a partner assisted rep when failure is reached, extending the set, forcing the muscle to work harder, past what they normally would, causing more hypertrophy, causing more growth.
I have said this before, but it is the same principle as increasing the weight. You make the muscle work harder... it grows faster.
Ultimately, you say that you have seen studies saying that this doesn't work, you say look at how the pros train...
Tom Platz - Trained past failure.
Arny - Invented methods for going through failure...
Coleman - Once said that his workout hadn't begun until he hits failure.
I have seen studies that say failure is bad... I have seen twice as many saying that failure is the only way to get the full potential from your muscles.
The only concern, logically is overtraining - hence my previous post. But if you eat right, sleep right, and perform these techniques in moderation, then you will not overtrain.
Ultimately, I care not if I get flamed on this matter, if I got a quote wrong, or if the 'latest edition of flex' says otherwise... it works for me, it works for everyone I know... and thats good enough.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
Lol, if you train for strength then at the same time you are in effect also training for size to a certain extent. Most guys I've seen that can bench 400lbs or more are BIG, this includes powerlifters.
Also, you're not using what I said in the appropriate context.
"If you only work a bodypart once a week, and you don't go to failure, it is my opinion that your are not training hard enough, and your results will suffer accordingly, mine certainly would."
This is the statement I was referring to and it's total BUNK.
I never said training to failure doesn't work. What I did say was that training to failure is not necessary to stimulate anymore growth than going 1 rep shy of failure. Like I said before, the only difference between 1 rep shy and failure is a MISSED rep haha. That's technically it. I honestly don;t see that missed rep stimulating more than the last rep you were able to complete. I do see it fatiguing your system more though.
Quoting famous bodybuilders that use methods of going past failure has nothing to do with what I said and not training to failure. You take an average guy. No, excuse me, you take an above average fairly genetically gifted guy and you train him on drop sets, rest pause, and forced reps every week and you are gonna overtrain him real quick mainly because you will be stressing his system more than it can handle.
I'm talking about not training to failure to lighten the stress on the cns, that's it. You can bash your muscles all day hard, and provided you give them good rest and nutrition they will grow back stronger in 48 or 72 hours. The same cannot be said for your nervous system. Thaqt's what I'm saying.
Also, you're not using what I said in the appropriate context.
"If you only work a bodypart once a week, and you don't go to failure, it is my opinion that your are not training hard enough, and your results will suffer accordingly, mine certainly would."
This is the statement I was referring to and it's total BUNK.
I never said training to failure doesn't work. What I did say was that training to failure is not necessary to stimulate anymore growth than going 1 rep shy of failure. Like I said before, the only difference between 1 rep shy and failure is a MISSED rep haha. That's technically it. I honestly don;t see that missed rep stimulating more than the last rep you were able to complete. I do see it fatiguing your system more though.
Quoting famous bodybuilders that use methods of going past failure has nothing to do with what I said and not training to failure. You take an average guy. No, excuse me, you take an above average fairly genetically gifted guy and you train him on drop sets, rest pause, and forced reps every week and you are gonna overtrain him real quick mainly because you will be stressing his system more than it can handle.
I'm talking about not training to failure to lighten the stress on the cns, that's it. You can bash your muscles all day hard, and provided you give them good rest and nutrition they will grow back stronger in 48 or 72 hours. The same cannot be said for your nervous system. Thaqt's what I'm saying.
mad_monkey59
New member
"I honestly don;t see that missed rep stimulating more than the last rep you were able to complete. I do see it fatiguing your system more though."
-I absolutley agree with you...
"This is the statement I was referring to and it's total BUNK"
-Im sorry, it was worded wrongly, I did correct this in my last post, I apologize.
"Check how powerlifters and weightlifters train to see where I'm coming from."
-
"Quoting famous bodybuilders that use methods of going past failure has nothing to do with what I said and not training to failure"
-This is why I added the quotes, it seemed that you were saying BBers don't train to failure, I pointed out they do - and beyond... logically you have to get to failure to train beyond it, this is why there was confussion on my, and your own part.
"The same cannot be said for your nervous system. Thaqt's what I'm saying."
- With sufficient rest and nutrition... your body will recover, if the methods are used in moderation (has to be the forth time I've said this now)
"you take an above average fairly genetically gifted guy and you train him on drop sets, rest pause, and forced reps every week and you are gonna overtrain him real quick mainly because you will be stressing his system more than it can handle."
-"The only concern, logically is overtraining - hence my previous post. But if you eat right, sleep right, and perform these techniques in moderation, then you will not overtrain." (previous post) -(moderation, again)
The confussion over these previous threads has been down to a mis-worded post. For which I corrected and apologized. Moderation, Nutrition and rest, will give the body sufficient time to recover, if you train 6 hours a day everyday with every concievable method thrown in... you will overtrain (or die )... but the fact is in moderation, with apropriate rest and nutrition, beyond failure is beneficial. The end.
-I absolutley agree with you...
"This is the statement I was referring to and it's total BUNK"
-Im sorry, it was worded wrongly, I did correct this in my last post, I apologize.
"Check how powerlifters and weightlifters train to see where I'm coming from."
-
"Quoting famous bodybuilders that use methods of going past failure has nothing to do with what I said and not training to failure"
-This is why I added the quotes, it seemed that you were saying BBers don't train to failure, I pointed out they do - and beyond... logically you have to get to failure to train beyond it, this is why there was confussion on my, and your own part.
"The same cannot be said for your nervous system. Thaqt's what I'm saying."
- With sufficient rest and nutrition... your body will recover, if the methods are used in moderation (has to be the forth time I've said this now)
"you take an above average fairly genetically gifted guy and you train him on drop sets, rest pause, and forced reps every week and you are gonna overtrain him real quick mainly because you will be stressing his system more than it can handle."
-"The only concern, logically is overtraining - hence my previous post. But if you eat right, sleep right, and perform these techniques in moderation, then you will not overtrain." (previous post) -(moderation, again)
The confussion over these previous threads has been down to a mis-worded post. For which I corrected and apologized. Moderation, Nutrition and rest, will give the body sufficient time to recover, if you train 6 hours a day everyday with every concievable method thrown in... you will overtrain (or die
)... but the fact is in moderation, with apropriate rest and nutrition, beyond failure is beneficial. The end.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
As long as you moderate your efforts, than I agree that methods used to go beyond failure can be very productive, especially at platuea's if used prudently.
Training til heart failure, 
another method made popular in the early 70's by Frank Mcgee. HIT man training was also popular around that time, but didnt really catch on til Bozo the clown got a shotgun up his ass 
All in all when its all said and done KILL THAT SHIT!!
another method made popular in the early 70's by Frank Mcgee. HIT man training was also popular around that time, but didnt really catch on til Bozo the clown got a shotgun up his ass All in all when its all said and done KILL THAT SHIT!!
ghettostudmuffin
New member
You just lost all credibility with that statement yomama.
If you train a single bodypart each day and bash the hell out of it, yes, you can over train. You still end up training 4-5 days a week.
You may have good recuperative abilities, be on drugs or just be totally ignorant of what overtraining is and how easily it can affect many people, especially people that are average or "hardgainers".
"One can't overtrain doing one bodypart a week."
That is quite possible the most false statement I've read on these boards lol. Or stupid. If you train 4-6 days per week and bust your butt in the gym you can over train, especially if you abuse intensity by constantly using forced reps, drop sets, heavy negatives etc. Even just going to failure on every set can cause a person to over train if they are pushing it at every workout. The problem is not the muscles. Muscles do grow within 48-72 hours, but they don't necessarily atrophy within 5-7 days either. The issue is the nervous system DUH. Double DUH. If you are training hard and consistent it is the nervous system that feels it the most. Now maybe YOU can come back the next day and keep doing it every time no matter how hard you train, but not every one can. I could train 5 days a week if I wanted to cuz I already train 4, but if I went to failrue constantly and/or used forced reps, drop sets etc I would quickly overtrain regardless of how much I eat. sleep and supplement.
I think you need to read up more on training and recovery before you go saying something like that.
If you train a single bodypart each day and bash the hell out of it, yes, you can over train. You still end up training 4-5 days a week.
You may have good recuperative abilities, be on drugs or just be totally ignorant of what overtraining is and how easily it can affect many people, especially people that are average or "hardgainers".
"One can't overtrain doing one bodypart a week."
That is quite possible the most false statement I've read on these boards lol. Or stupid. If you train 4-6 days per week and bust your butt in the gym you can over train, especially if you abuse intensity by constantly using forced reps, drop sets, heavy negatives etc. Even just going to failure on every set can cause a person to over train if they are pushing it at every workout. The problem is not the muscles. Muscles do grow within 48-72 hours, but they don't necessarily atrophy within 5-7 days either. The issue is the nervous system DUH. Double DUH. If you are training hard and consistent it is the nervous system that feels it the most. Now maybe YOU can come back the next day and keep doing it every time no matter how hard you train, but not every one can. I could train 5 days a week if I wanted to cuz I already train 4, but if I went to failrue constantly and/or used forced reps, drop sets etc I would quickly overtrain regardless of how much I eat. sleep and supplement.
I think you need to read up more on training and recovery before you go saying something like that.
BOOEY
Banned
I wasn't going to chime in after my last post, but something is telling me to do so. I don't know how you can make the argument that "the missed rep [is not] stimulating more than the last rep you were able to complete. I do see it fatiguing your system more though." Muscle grows by fatiguing them/damaging them/whatever you want to call it and then replenishing it with nutrients. If I can do 11 reps of something, and I fail at 11, can't you see that I'm stimulating the muscle MORE than if I was doing only 10 reps. Well, one rep, what is that? It's something. Go tell a sprinter to stop short of running 100m and only do 90m. Failure isn't something to be afraid of. Overtraining is very overrated. It's something that was popularized by Mentzer and his boys because it sounds "right" and promotes their way of training. It's something that people like to use as a crutch to lessen the load on workout day. When I first started lifting I had the same mentality - and the gains came slowly. But my best gains in my life came when I went all out in the gym, 5 days a week, massive amounts of sets and failure on a lot of exercises coupled with varying intensity techniques. If you're eating, sleeping and training correctly, which you should be doing anyway, then overtraining should not be a concern. In fact I'm willing to say for someone who trains one b/p a week, it would be almost impossible for them to overtrain, if everything else is in order. Science can only tell you so much. Real world trials are what make up fact. I used to think certain exercises were better than other because EMG studies said so. But now, I realize some of those exercises that were labled "unneccessary" have given me great results. Just remember, there's a study published that says Cell-tech is 1887% better than regular creatine ... well I don't need to elaborate on that.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
LOL.
Big failure and mega volume fan eh? Hey, if it works for you fine, but saying a person can't overtrain when training one bodypart per week is stupid. It doesn't matter whether you train teh same bodypart 3x a week or once a week. It doesn't matter whether you train 2 days a week or 6. It's not the number of days trained it's the total amount of fatigue incurred.
You do realize that every time your muscle contracts your Central Nervous System is sending it a signal from your brain to contract? There have been scientific studies done that show a muscle recuperates in 48-72 hours. There also have been studies done that even though the muscle was recuperated it could not contract with 100% maximal force because the CNS couldn't effectively fire at maximal force do to systemic fatigue caused from training. So your muscles may be ready to go, but your CNS isn't.
When I say training to failrue isn't necessary it's because it isn't. If you like training to failure than do it. But, it is not needed to make optimal progress. I have about 5 years trainign experience and for 99% of that time I trained to failure on all my sets. I have done all kinds of splits, sets and rep schemes, HIT, high volume whatever. My experience is that training to failure does next to nothing to stimulate more muscle growth than ending a set at the last rep you can complete, but it does unecessarily fatigue your system more.
I've trained for the past 3 months without ever going to failure on purpose. I might hit failure on 1 set of 1 exercise once every 3rd workout or something by accident. My gains have been as good as they ever were in the past when training to failure and I can honestly say I am actually improving faster than when I trained to failure and am able to use more volume overall because I am not fatiguing myself as much.
I'm not against training to failure. What I am against is saying that it is necessary for optimal progress when it is not.
Big failure and mega volume fan eh? Hey, if it works for you fine, but saying a person can't overtrain when training one bodypart per week is stupid. It doesn't matter whether you train teh same bodypart 3x a week or once a week. It doesn't matter whether you train 2 days a week or 6. It's not the number of days trained it's the total amount of fatigue incurred.
You do realize that every time your muscle contracts your Central Nervous System is sending it a signal from your brain to contract? There have been scientific studies done that show a muscle recuperates in 48-72 hours. There also have been studies done that even though the muscle was recuperated it could not contract with 100% maximal force because the CNS couldn't effectively fire at maximal force do to systemic fatigue caused from training. So your muscles may be ready to go, but your CNS isn't.
When I say training to failrue isn't necessary it's because it isn't. If you like training to failure than do it. But, it is not needed to make optimal progress. I have about 5 years trainign experience and for 99% of that time I trained to failure on all my sets. I have done all kinds of splits, sets and rep schemes, HIT, high volume whatever. My experience is that training to failure does next to nothing to stimulate more muscle growth than ending a set at the last rep you can complete, but it does unecessarily fatigue your system more.
I've trained for the past 3 months without ever going to failure on purpose. I might hit failure on 1 set of 1 exercise once every 3rd workout or something by accident. My gains have been as good as they ever were in the past when training to failure and I can honestly say I am actually improving faster than when I trained to failure and am able to use more volume overall because I am not fatiguing myself as much.
I'm not against training to failure. What I am against is saying that it is necessary for optimal progress when it is not.
mad_monkey59
New member
"I'm not against training to failure. What I am against is saying that it is necessary for optimal progress when it is not."
Optimal, in this context meaning training to a point where biologically you are working hard enough to stimulate maximal muscle growth, whilst not overtraining. Doing nothing but straight sets, without going beyond failure is not working a muscle as hard as it could be worked, and therefore you are able to work the muscle harder, therefore you are not training optimally.
If you don't train to and beyond failure you are working at about 75 - 80%, beyond failure gives you much closer to 100%... the key is finding a balance.
Optimal training requires we get as close to 100% as possible without overtraining... therefore, if applied in moderation, training beyond failure is necessary for optimal training.
Didn't we just establish this?
Optimal, in this context meaning training to a point where biologically you are working hard enough to stimulate maximal muscle growth, whilst not overtraining. Doing nothing but straight sets, without going beyond failure is not working a muscle as hard as it could be worked, and therefore you are able to work the muscle harder, therefore you are not training optimally.
If you don't train to and beyond failure you are working at about 75 - 80%, beyond failure gives you much closer to 100%... the key is finding a balance.
Optimal training requires we get as close to 100% as possible without overtraining... therefore, if applied in moderation, training beyond failure is necessary for optimal training.
Didn't we just establish this?
ghettostudmuffin
New member
Lol, bro, you're speaking all theory, NOT fact.
I am speaking theory, but I'm not trying to pass it off as fact.
And if you really want to talk about intensity, the only way to accurately and scientifically establish it is through the use of a 1 rep max. This is old news.
My definition of intensity comes from the 1 rep max method which is the only legitimate gauge for intensity at this moment.
When doing a 1 rep max you find out just how much you can lift for 1 rep. So naturally you find out that say you can bench 300, but not 305. Well then, your max is 300. When you bench 300 you are using 100% effort or intensity, plain and simple. Let's not even talk about % ability to recruit and fire muscle fibers in trained lifters.
Now when doing a set of 10 reps with say 230 if you can only press it 10 times, but not 11, then you are in effect giving 100% on the completed rep because you just didn't have it the next rep. On the 11th you may have only had 90% and that wasn't good enough to actually get it up.
Doing forced reps, heavy negatives and drop sets or whatever is a totally different subject about going past failure and at that point becomes hard to establish how much intensity is generated.
All I'm saying is that you can train without going to failure and/or doing forced reps etc. and make optimal progress.
I am proof and I know others that don't go to failure that constantly make gains.
I am speaking theory, but I'm not trying to pass it off as fact.
And if you really want to talk about intensity, the only way to accurately and scientifically establish it is through the use of a 1 rep max. This is old news.
My definition of intensity comes from the 1 rep max method which is the only legitimate gauge for intensity at this moment.
When doing a 1 rep max you find out just how much you can lift for 1 rep. So naturally you find out that say you can bench 300, but not 305. Well then, your max is 300. When you bench 300 you are using 100% effort or intensity, plain and simple. Let's not even talk about % ability to recruit and fire muscle fibers in trained lifters.
Now when doing a set of 10 reps with say 230 if you can only press it 10 times, but not 11, then you are in effect giving 100% on the completed rep because you just didn't have it the next rep. On the 11th you may have only had 90% and that wasn't good enough to actually get it up.
Doing forced reps, heavy negatives and drop sets or whatever is a totally different subject about going past failure and at that point becomes hard to establish how much intensity is generated.
All I'm saying is that you can train without going to failure and/or doing forced reps etc. and make optimal progress.
I am proof and I know others that don't go to failure that constantly make gains.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
Good point booey.
We all have our methods and opinions, but like you said, as long as it works for ya, then use it.
You seem quite knowledgeable about training mad_monkey so I do respect your opinions, I just don't agree with them just as booey doesn't agree with me. Since we will never agree on this particular subject I'll just call it good.
We all have our methods and opinions, but like you said, as long as it works for ya, then use it.
You seem quite knowledgeable about training mad_monkey so I do respect your opinions, I just don't agree with them just as booey doesn't agree with me. Since we will never agree on this particular subject I'll just call it good.
mad_monkey59
New member
We could argue about this all day... good point by the way, however, lets agree to disagree.
