The latest "theoretical" misconception

[MS]

I beg to differ since I made my best ever muscle gains eating one hyooooge meal a day immediately post workout. Only prob was I found I had to reduce my veggie intake so I could fit enough calorie dense food in one meal. This was a fast all day, then train, then eat method of bulking and it was fantastic for minimum fat gain while bulking. I don't know how I would go if I had to do this as a cutting diet though. I guess I would just put lots of veggies back into the meal. And spend a lot of the day hungry

 

[blood_drinker]

What if you are on a 1 meal a day cutting diet? Since I now am pretty sure we are talking about weight LOSS,
when would this one meal be eaten? Post workout, or post cardio? Either way, muscle loss is inevitable if you skip one of these - as is failure with this diet. I think I have made my take on this as clear as it could possibly get - It just does not work. There are other factors to dieting than simply meal number(s) and quantity. At least to me - if you want to go the theoretical way, go ahead. My advice is to just destroy that idea out of our minds. It's all very unnecessary and progress-retarding suffering. Des-troy

 

[MS]

Well OK, I get the feeling Blood drinker wants to start a topic about meal frequency and muscle loss LOL. Fine, that's a different topic and does not negate the observation that eating one high calorie, high protein meal post workout can be effective for muscle gain with minimal fat gain (which I think was the original topic). No doubt someone who goes on a calorie restricted diet will lose muscle (and fat), the proportions which will be determined by their age, genetics, weight training program, initial %bodyfat and many other factors (such as anabolics). However I have not come across any research that shows that the proportion of LBM loss changes depending on how many meals are eaten each day. This is not to say that the research has not been done, and even if it hasn't been done that the conclusion is false. But I think it's a good idea to be clear when we are stating OPINION (and what it's based on ) versus when we are stating peer-reviewed research. Why do you think one post workout high protein meal each day will lead to greater muscle loss (or less fat loss) than the same calories spread more evenly over the day?? Is this just a gut feeling? Is it something you heard somewhere but can't remeber exactly where you heard it? Is this just 'common knowledge" along the lines of fats make you fat? I genuinely would like to know if you have some valid research data on this topic. I'm sure Mr X will come to the rescue at some stage. But until then can we be clear about opinions and research please?

 

[blood_drinker]

MS, you are the one going off track here. Never did I say that less / more / any muscle would be gained with a huge post workout meal. I was illustrating the point of NOT having a post workout meal. I was not aware you would have your only meal of the day post workout. In any case, your goal was fat loss, and as far as I am concerned, muscle gain will not happen especially if you are trying to lose fat. There have been no studies on meal frequency and muscle gain, no . That was just not my point, sorry - you must have misunderstood. Again, my point was, if you eat your meal in the morning or afternoon, instead of post workout, you are even more sure to lose muscle. Since the goal was fat loss, even eating your huge meal post workout would not make a difference - as it just does not work to have muscle gain and fat loss (or weight loss as you put it) at the same time. You confused the whole topic, by putting your muscle gaining experience post workout. We are talking weight loss. I have not seen anyother studies on the subject, nor do I care to - it just was not my point. It was an ABSENCE of a post workout meal. No gut feelings here. I have a quote two replies up from this.
I will post it again.

Recent muscle kinetic studies by Giovanni Bolio and colleagues (Am.J.Physiol.Endo Metab.273:E122-E129,1997) have substantiated that after weight training protein synthesis rates and muscle breakdown rates are both phenomenally accelerated And without the introduction of protein and carbohydrates immediately after training net protein loss is the result.

My last reply was just attacking your response. In any cutting diet, one would peform both endurance and strength training. Since you are on a one meal a day diet, ideally you would place your meals after one of these exercises.

Immediately after an endurance workout, protein synthesis (building) goes down and protein breakdown goes up. This leads to a negative Muscle Protein Balance and a loss of muscle.

And immediately after a strength workout, protein building either stays the same or slightly goes up but protein breakdown goes way up. This also leads to a negative Muscle Protein Balance and a loss of muscle.

A failure to bring your glycogen stores back up will certainly cause
1) Minimal gains despite a well designed training split and program.
2) Losses in muscle mass

Since you are abstaining from eating after at least ONE of these sessions, you better be sure: You will lose muscle, and you will fail, hence, the reason not to go on this theoretical diet.

There really is no need for rescuing here - but for more careful reading.

SIDE NOTE: MS, I am going to sleep now - Ill be doing some real proven recovery, and I will wake in the middle of the night and have a snack. This is the hardcore way to train and eat. I believe things that already work should not be tweaked with things that obviously do not work just in a useless search for something better. It seems I cannot convince you. But I am sure of something - that one meal a day bullshit does not work. I will stick to tried and very true methods. No gut feelings, not something I think I read but cant remember, MS. It is what works. And the one meal a day diet, that, it does not work. Plain and simple. You can sugar coat it - but it does not work. Again - it is unnecessary a progress retarding suffering. And, it does not work. I am having a hard time convincing you. I can't tell you much more. This is what I think, and you can take it as you wish.

 

[MS]

Well you sure as hell have me confused about what your point is. We obviously agree that protein is required post workout to avoid unecessary muscle loss. I just don't understand why you say one large post workout meal per day will not work (for either fat loss or muscle gain). Although I prefer to stick to what I think was sonny's original question which was muscle gain without too much fat gain. I was not implying that one could add muscle AND lose fat this way. Anyway, as you indicated, I can see that your mind is set on this issue. I was hoping that my prodding would send you off to do you own research and form your own opinions but instead you insist on being stubborn and saying it won't work without any reason other than opinion. I hope you have a very restorative sleep since rest and training are probably more important than meal frequency for growing new muscles.

 

[Hoffmeister]

blood, the point of trying to discuss and research this stuff is to try to train smarter and better.

In many cases, to do that you may need to experiment, and try things that aren't "tried and true". You need to determine, if possible, why something works, not just that it works.

Take some of the stuff regarding leptin and refeeds. Now, people have known for awhile that CKD's work; but some of us just don't like the way we look and feel on keto diets. Applying the "carbup" during a non-keto diet seems to work just as well, and I don't have to feel deflated during the diet.

Another example is the use of "intervals" for cardio. In less time, I can get more benefit than using the traditional, "tried and true" low-intensity cardio (dubbed by someone as WAMC, or "wimpy assed morning cardio").

The point is to try, if possible, to determine why something works, and if you can do it better. Personally, at 40 going on 41, I don't have the benefit of youth to get me by. I'm trying to put alot of effort into training and dieting, and trying to it as "naturally", for lack of a better word, as I can. And if I can do it smarter and more efficiently, all the better.

Anyway, my two cents.

 

[Cackerot69]

Well, I'd just like to say that MS is 100% correct

 

[blood_drinker]

My points rephrased on weightloss
I understand that we need to break away from tried and true. But I think the one meal a day is rediculous for losing fat. Short term, perhaps it might work. But ultimately, it does not. Like I said, in a cutting diet, you have both types of exercise, endurance and strength. Ideally in your ONE meal a day diet, you would consume the meal after one of these sessions, correct? Considering you will miss either a post cardio meal or a post workout meal, in one of those (the one you missed) you WILL lose muscle. And not solely because of the post workout meal or post cardio meal that was missed, but also because you do not have enough protein to sustain your lbm. A snickers and a burger definetely do not give me the protein I would need. Perhaps over the rest of the day you will lose fat - very probable. Perhaps as was said, you will GAIN fat, but then that fat will be mobilized for fuel. FINE. But, with the inevitable muscle loss, you will rebound and the yoyo effect comes into play. And you lose. Now, Im open minded - I love "new" things. But there are things that you can tell don't work from the start - and are rediculous and not even worth the debate. For weight loss - that is my standpoint - it does not work. And the whole discussion started with you MS, because you did not point out previously you were intending on having the meal after one of these sessions - I thought it would be randomly placed somewhere in the day .

My point on Muscle gain -I have never tried this and you say you have. Although I am not saying it does not work, I cannot seem to understand why it would. If it does, we are doing something wrong altogether in our bulking diets.

1) The point of frequent meals is to CONSTANTLY provide your muscle for needed nutrients needed for growth.

2) There have been studies and many bros with pers. exp that wake in the middle of the night and have a snack - this makes them significantly more muscular than they would with a normal day cuttting diet. What do you attribute this to , then? Meal frequency isn't related to muscle gain? I HIGHLY and wholeheartedly doubt it.

3) We all know the needs of a high cal diet while bulking. I bulk with around 4000cals. You saying Im gonna consume a 4000cal meal ? OR is less needed?
Perhaps your one meal a day thing works as it is a shocker, but (yes this is a gut feeling) I bet my ass your body will adapt to it. But, perhaps it works. If you would be able to consume 4000cals, those are too many cals and chances are many will be stored as fat - your body cannot possibly use so many cals at a time. But again, perhaps the fat will be mobilized for fuel.

4) Your body is constantly growing. You do not just feed it once and hope for the best. Look at babies for example. You feed them many times a day, and this is real anabolic and they need this for their early life growth spurt if you will - when they have their first test boost in life. My point is, post workout nutrition, while very important, is not the only time your body repairs your muscle fibers. Thus, the one meal a day bulk is not OPTIMUM for muscle gain by a long shot.

Those are my standpoints.

Sonny, you posted about three different threads. The one with the link above I believe was answered by my original post and everyone attacked me saying it was not the right question. Are we answering all three at once? What was the question?

 

[Mr.X]

Mr.X is on the side-lines, watching from the front row...very interesting...now I will go back to my seat

MS, I saw your other post, you have de-throned Bikinimom...you are now the queen of long posts lol

Very Informative, heck, I just spent 2 hours reading this and some studies about it, I see both sides of the story now

Mr.X

 

[gy]

One meal a day, despite a conscious effort at minimizing caloric intake, will eventually lead to endocrine dysfunction and leptin down regulation. This has been documented in a peer reviewed journal. I don't have the article at hand but a google MFW search should bring up a discussion about this very topic in relation to the study. Again, this is for only one meal a day and if I recall correctly it did not occur immediately but over a certain period of time. I don't know if the same situation would then apply to two meals.

Much of the anecdotal evidence from users of the "Warrior diet" showed almost identical results in many dieters: good weight loss for a week or two followed by an an almost complete attenuation of fat loss. A search on the T-MAG forum should bring up some posts that highlight this.

From personel experiences, I believe that if one is going to eat a hypercaloric diet that contains ample amounts of all three macronutrients, eating it in one meal instead of multiple may be advantageous to minimze fat gain. However, I have tried numerous time to use the one meal a day plan on a restricted energy basis with dissapointing results that seemed to not only halt fat loss but ironically lead to fat gain. If I then took the same amount of calories and nutrients used on my hypocaloric one meal a day plan and spread them out over 5 meals, fat almost immediately started to be lost on my frame. Again, these are my own experiences and opinions fostered by both science and BB hearsay. I have no doubt someone may succeed with a different approach as genetic and environmental variation is of utmost importance.

Lastly, in my own case, macronutrient breakdown makes all the difference in the world. Some feel that as long as you get adequate protein and EFA's the source for the rest of your calories does not matter. Well I have tried that approach by using things such as potatoes, bread, and sugar to make up the "rest of my calories" and compared it to vegeatbles, fruit, more lean protein, and EFA's and the results were not even close. I was extremely leaner and found that I could easily cut back on my cardio requirements. Now that's not to say that the opposing approach won't work, because it most certainly will, but people are different and you as an individual must search for what works best for you. These boards and others are a great start in acquiring your knowledge base in order to begin your own personel trials, failures, and successes.

My $00.02.