Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I have allways heard that strength is not a factor, but I have been watching some of these videos on like wrestlers and BJJ'ers and I have got to say unless the guy was a TRUE master I dunno if he could take me. If the guy was ANY less weight then me and not near my strength some of those holds I could just pick myself and him during it and body slam him on his head. I dont see how some of these can be effective if the other person has you really outmatched strength and maybe weight wise. Or are they?
Strength a factor?
- Thread starter tommboy
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Djimbe
New member
I agree with you . Im a LOT bigger than , well , Im bigger than everybody ! And whenever I train in Grappling theres never a Moment that i couldnt simply Power Out of any particular hold that Ive been placed in by anyone that I have 100 lbs or more on . And I dont even really consider myself particularly Strong or In Shape right now .
Most grappling stuff gives a Leverage Advantage against the common person . The Advantage is not Infinite . Most MAists have NO clue what kind of Power and BodyConnectivity you can get from Strength Training and PowerLifting . Look at the Royce Gracie/Kimo Leopoldo fight ! Kimo had less than 50 lbs on Royce at the time , but it was all GYM MUSCLE , and he nearly KILLED Royce , whom had more than 20 years of BJJ Experience over him .
Most grappling stuff gives a Leverage Advantage against the common person . The Advantage is not Infinite . Most MAists have NO clue what kind of Power and BodyConnectivity you can get from Strength Training and PowerLifting . Look at the Royce Gracie/Kimo Leopoldo fight ! Kimo had less than 50 lbs on Royce at the time , but it was all GYM MUSCLE , and he nearly KILLED Royce , whom had more than 20 years of BJJ Experience over him .
Yea ive really got to agree cause I can give u an example, My training instructor for San shou was showing people how to do a take down move and he said it even works on big bulky guys. And then he grabbed me (keep in my first MA training day of my life, and I only had like 10-15 pounds on him all muscle though) And he tried to do it but he couldnt over and over I would just overpower him, and then he said well I must have wrestling background haha. Nope.
Djimbe said:
strength plays a part no doubt but only to an extent.
i have thrown,choked,pinned and armlocked guys who had me by +100lbs but there have also been new white belts that i couldnt pin because of there pure strength
now im no master and neither were these guys but i was 'better' technique wise
but i kinda find it hard that you guys havent faced something you couldnt just power out of. not that its a bad thing but i think both of you might want to seek out partners that can do that to you because it will only make you stronger and better. smaller guys have it easier cause there is always someone stronger to work with so even if i dont have someone 'better' then me to work w/ i always have someone stronger to work with which is always beneficial
'people who say strength doesnt matter have probably lost a lot of fights'
-sensei
i have thrown,choked,pinned and armlocked guys who had me by +100lbs but there have also been new white belts that i couldnt pin because of there pure strength
now im no master and neither were these guys but i was 'better' technique wise
but i kinda find it hard that you guys havent faced something you couldnt just power out of. not that its a bad thing but i think both of you might want to seek out partners that can do that to you because it will only make you stronger and better. smaller guys have it easier cause there is always someone stronger to work with so even if i dont have someone 'better' then me to work w/ i always have someone stronger to work with which is always beneficial
'people who say strength doesnt matter have probably lost a lot of fights'
-sensei
araiber
New member
I will just quote my wrestling coach on this:
"It takes 20% skill, 10% luck, and 70% strength to win a match"
Of course before joining the wrestling team (and having the city champ on his back) I also took some Judo. I have always been strong for my bodyweight, so in those occasions where they placed me in matches according to weight, and not belt, I was still able to rip ass and get a green belt into an arm bar, when I was still a white belt.
In responce to Kimo almost being Royce? No way dude.. Royce is a professional, and he showed his skills not only with that title-winning match, but with the several after that followed.
In order to win against a person who is physically stronger than you, you must look for a weakness in their gameplan. Whether it be that they have low stamina, or that their legs are weak, or that they never protect their neck from a choke-out.. There are always advantages for being the lighter guy- but I still think that strength plays a huge factor in winning a match- or a fight.
Its a combination of actually knowing what your doing, and having the ability to do it.
"It takes 20% skill, 10% luck, and 70% strength to win a match"
Of course before joining the wrestling team (and having the city champ on his back) I also took some Judo. I have always been strong for my bodyweight, so in those occasions where they placed me in matches according to weight, and not belt, I was still able to rip ass and get a green belt into an arm bar, when I was still a white belt.
In responce to Kimo almost being Royce? No way dude.. Royce is a professional, and he showed his skills not only with that title-winning match, but with the several after that followed.
In order to win against a person who is physically stronger than you, you must look for a weakness in their gameplan. Whether it be that they have low stamina, or that their legs are weak, or that they never protect their neck from a choke-out.. There are always advantages for being the lighter guy- but I still think that strength plays a huge factor in winning a match- or a fight.
Its a combination of actually knowing what your doing, and having the ability to do it.
tommboy said:
you are both right and wrong
you are wrong in that it would not take a true master to tap you out
but you are right in that strength is very important people that tell you it isn't are one of two things
1.) inexperienced
2.) trying to sell something (so outright lieing)
I have been training jiu-jitsu for 7 years and am 6'1 345 lbs. and am considered strong. Makes no difference against guys from my school who go more consistently than I do, they end up tapping me. I last longer because of my strength, and even longer because of technique, but after awhile they are gonna catch me. I would rather be size with technique than size with little technique just having to go into a comp relying on power. Like Rickson says in choke, big strong guys are like monkeys in the trees, they are everywhere, but I am not worried about them. Just one of a million hilarious quotes from that movie.
asianlover
New member
strength is very important. all the technique and training in the world are useless
unless u have the strenght to use them. im sure judo to has beaten people much bigger than him but tom probable isnt a weekling eather. if u have decent strength and a lot of training u could take down a much stronger opponent. but if somone weighs 90lbs they probable wouldnt have a chance in hell agaist somone who weighed 260 no matter how much training they had. gracie was only 180lbs and 6'1" im 6'4" and 245lbs, and i am pretty sure he would kick my ass. i may be alot bigger and stronger but i dont think i would have much of a chance being that i have no experience.
btw if size and strenght didnt matter at all there would be no need for weight classes.
unless u have the strenght to use them. im sure judo to has beaten people much bigger than him but tom probable isnt a weekling eather. if u have decent strength and a lot of training u could take down a much stronger opponent. but if somone weighs 90lbs they probable wouldnt have a chance in hell agaist somone who weighed 260 no matter how much training they had. gracie was only 180lbs and 6'1" im 6'4" and 245lbs, and i am pretty sure he would kick my ass. i may be alot bigger and stronger but i dont think i would have much of a chance being that i have no experience.
btw if size and strenght didnt matter at all there would be no need for weight classes.
dgatehouse
New member
tommboy said:
This reminds me of a time when I started training. My master was demonstrating a simple throw on a student who literally weighed at the time over 400 pounds. My master is about 180. He tried to gently throw him but the guy resisted not knowing any better. My master went "Oh, don't want to fall huh?" He did the move again full power taking out his legs with the throw. Holy shit that dude looked like he caught air before hitting the ground. Good times. The look on his face was priceless.
rgjujitsu said:
you contradict yourself
you say strength makes no difference then you say you last longer because of your strength
your half right
the half that says strength does matter
if someone was 100lbs lighter and weaker then you with your same skill level they'd get tapped out that much faster
Djimbe
New member
araiber said:
firstly , after the match Kimo looked like someone BARELY made him JOG for 5 min - he was hardly even breathing heavy - and Royce not only went to the Hospital , but had to be CARRIED from the Ring by his Obi , his legs Dragging behind him .
The ONLY thing that saved Royce was TWENTY YEARS more Experience . And 50 lbs or so was almost an Equaliser . Honestly , had the fight been to the Death I would put my $ on Kimo , Hyperextended Elbow or not . Armbars DO damage , but if the stakes were real they would never decide a thing .
in most fights you dont have the luxury of looking at Film on your opponents b4hand . so you just better have YOUR game perfect , and not try to rely on any percieved weaknesses . Im not saying that if you see a shot dont take it , but a lot of ppl arent exactly weak were they appear to be .
What advantages are there to being Lighter ? I understand if the heavier guy is like Akebono , non-Muscle weight , but if hes like Ronnie ? or ceven a decent Amateur BB or PL ? Please . Id take Marius' build over ANY pro MMA guys any day .
Djimbe
New member
asianlover said:
Youre about the size Kimo was when they fought . The difference is he had Trainers getting him SPECIFICALLY ready for him , and I have no Idea how Stong you are . If you were a Serious PL you might have a Shot , but a 60 lb weight advantage isnt Insurmountable with skill , its when yu start to get to the 100+lb with muscle differences that it gets serious .
Ianhockey91
New member
Take a look at tank, hes quite strong (600lb BP and all) and he gets beat by lighter more SKILLED opponents all the time.
Djimbe said:
Marius does have a great build
but even if the extra weight is muscle it's more work on your cardio system to keep you moving so if the big guy hasn't put the extra effort into cardio (tho if he's got good definition we can assume he has) then the smaller guy with also no work into cardio will probubly have better stamina
also ground manuverability, it's easier for smaller guys to pull off moves that require a lot of movement then for a bigger guy
also if they dont' win they can say well what the heck he was bigger then me
not an advantage during the fight but helpful after
Djimbe
New member
Kane Fan said:
Well , firstly thats why I called Out Marius , specifically . His Cardio is GREAT despite his Musculature , and he shows that if you want you can do both .
Secondly strength cuts Cardio .
If I only have to hit you 3 times to ring your bell and you have to hit me 20 , I have to do CONSIDERABLY Less work than you do .
Ive never had any Issues moving on the Mat unless I was already tired . I weight 390-415 on any given day , and I move as fast as anyone else that I know . I think that that has more to do with Uneaven Weight Distribution - most o my Weight is in my lower body , and when youre built like a Golf Tee it really IS harder to move , and most ppl dont train their Legs well .
Djimbe said:
I prefer to Counter punch and Counter move as well but the problem is I'm only good at Countering when I'm moving backward, sideways or standing still
(so basically I can't counter moving forward) and I am on the short side with bad reach : o (
but I am heavy to so I can have someone lighter then me who outranges me, so I have to move in *sigh*
on the plus side if I pin them againt something they are screwed
GYMWEAR.ORG
New member
im an ex bodybuilder/powerlifter and probably one of the strongest in my class at mma/vale tudo and strength means nothing when up against someone with good skill levels and technique in my experience.
Djimbe
New member
Kane Fan said:
Thats Wierd ...
I mean , usually ppl with Smaller Reach want to be on the Inside ... You need to Find a system that is all about Infighting with the hands - you know a system that for whom Normal Clinch Range is Striking Range - like Xingyi or Wing Chun ... the only problem is finding a good school/Teacher ...
My Xingyi teacher is LITERALLY a foot shorter and 240 lbs lighter than I am and he gets in on me 50-50 . And thats with me having more than 2.5 DECADES of MA practice AND being a Hand Percussionist ! Systems like Boxing just rely too much on Attributes .
Djimbe said:
my inside fighting is quite good actually for my experience level
the problem is we spar in a wide open yard so I have nothing to pin the other guy against
with them generally being far lighter then me and having reach it's too easy for them to play keepaway
in a ring I'd murder most people with similar experience
Djimbe
New member
Kane Fan said:
no , just change your Tactics .
You have to take the "One Step Forward Two Steps ack" approach ! You step in when they step in , if they step out to even out thwat step you take 2 steps ack and wait until they come to you , then you again take one step forward .
Try it .
I've done that before
the problem is we are training more for sport competition then self defence
so if we stand outside of each other's range our instructor is like well nothing is going to happen from here
and the smaller people are being trained mostly to be runners and I'm trained to be a charger so if the fight stalls I'm the one that gets yelled at
it's basically set up so that any instrutor can bitch at me at any time over anything
no matter if I'm performing perfectly or badly
it's really quite annoying to be stuck in a wide open field against someone with better range and quicker feet then listen to the damned instructor talk like your the one that's learning slowly
the bad part is he's a good instructor and he KNOWS the situation is set up so that every advatnage is going to the other student
somehow he got it in his head the only way I'd be serious about training is if I"m pissed off all the time I guess
the problem is we are training more for sport competition then self defence
so if we stand outside of each other's range our instructor is like well nothing is going to happen from here
and the smaller people are being trained mostly to be runners and I'm trained to be a charger so if the fight stalls I'm the one that gets yelled at
it's basically set up so that any instrutor can bitch at me at any time over anything
no matter if I'm performing perfectly or badly
it's really quite annoying to be stuck in a wide open field against someone with better range and quicker feet then listen to the damned instructor talk like your the one that's learning slowly
the bad part is he's a good instructor and he KNOWS the situation is set up so that every advatnage is going to the other student
somehow he got it in his head the only way I'd be serious about training is if I"m pissed off all the time I guess
Strength does play a factor to a degree but you have to know how to utilize that strength effectively in combat situations through proper techniques cordination leverage balance etc..Pure strength alone is not enough to win a fight against another experienced fighter with only half your strenght but have all the other fighting attributes. You need to be a well rounded fighter to compete in this sport.
Wazzzzzzzup89
New member
Hmm it depends, alot of times while working we end up getting into "wrestling" matches, usually from someone randomly grabbing someone then it starts.
Im shorter then everyone there, and lighter, I have no idea if im weaker or not (Everybody likes to claim they are strong and run their mouths).
But I can take everyone there but a friend who has a over 100 pounds on me. Even them I can give him a run for his money more then anybody else there.
Mostly because even though I've never trained in a grappling art I do know a few things, and it helps alot. Let some random moron try to bring you to the ground and you'll realize that knowing a little bit is better then thinking you know how to fight.
^^^ so easy to get a great hold on someone who knows nothing about grappling. I'd say its more important to know how to use your strength and to stay thinking quicker then the opponent.
Im shorter then everyone there, and lighter, I have no idea if im weaker or not (Everybody likes to claim they are strong and run their mouths).
But I can take everyone there but a friend who has a over 100 pounds on me. Even them I can give him a run for his money more then anybody else there.
Mostly because even though I've never trained in a grappling art I do know a few things, and it helps alot. Let some random moron try to bring you to the ground and you'll realize that knowing a little bit is better then thinking you know how to fight.
^^^ so easy to get a great hold on someone who knows nothing about grappling. I'd say its more important to know how to use your strength and to stay thinking quicker then the opponent.
Djimbe
New member
this being the board it is Im betting that you ave Strength on everyone exept the guy you mentioned , despite being Smaller . Ppl tend to remember their "Glory Days" and think that they are still as powerful , while if youre actively training are stonger than they ever were . Remember , most ppl cant bench 500 , but a 150 lb man can train to be able to do so .
shamrock11
New member
Strength plays a part no doubt but the most important part a fighter can bring to the game it his/ her intelligence. The smarter fighter will alway win the fight no matter what. Just my opinion though
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