Squats for quad development? Or not?

[casualbb]

There are many variations on a squat: high-bar olympic, PL-style, front squat, zercher, and so on.

All of these motions, to varying degrees boil down to a combination of two movements:

1. Knee extension
2. Hip extension

For instance, a PL-squat is skewed towards hip extension, resembling almost a GM at times. A close-stance front squat, by contrast, would diminish hip extension and recruit the quads more.

But what should become obvious is that the quads are only responsible for the first of those two movements, knee extension. The quads would see much more direct stress from a leg extension exercise because you cut out hip extension and isolate their function.

Yet I frequently see people insist (and used to insist myself) that squats should be the staple of any leg program. Why is this? Obviously it's not because of their ham and glute recruitment during hip extension; most of that is covered to a much better degree by some form of a deadlift. Also, the "safe" style of squatting generally advocates limiting the forward travel of the knees over the toes, thus shifting the movement towards hip extension and reducing the desired quad effect!

I'm doing a personal experiment: next HST cycle, leg extensions will be my only quad exercise. No squats, no leg presses, no hack squats, no combination of leg and hip extension, just pure leg extension. I expect my quads (a lagging bodypart btw) to explode.

I know everybody's a fan of squats and I would be lying if I said I didn't love them myself. But as a bodybuilder, each movement is only a means to the end of increased muscularity, and squats have failed to deliver.

So, what do you guys think? I'm looking to stimulate some hardcore discussion here.

 

[revexrevex]

dont fuck around with leg extension and squat

 

[casualbb]

Please rev I said "discussion"

 

[revexrevex]

99% of people in my gym do leg extensions, 99% of those people have small legs

 

[louden_swain]

I think it really depends on the type of squat you use.

I have build really good quads from using a close stance. . .that was between 1999 and 2002.

Now, I use a really wide stance and I feel the majority of the stress directed to the hips and waist and less on the knee.

When it comes to building quads. . . knee extension is important.

I think leg extensions can certainly stress the quads. I personally have never been able to build huge thick quads using only leg extensions. Its funny when I think about it. . . leg extensions and squats can both break down muscle tissues. Call me crazty, but I think that squats help recruit more muscle fibers than leg extensions.

If you put yourself on a leg extension routine. . it had better be brutal (Tom Platz style).

I don't know where I am going with this. . .

 

[sk*]

I don't feel regular squats in my quads, now front squats are a different story (they hurt my shoulders a bit though, where I hold the bar).

I am sure bicep curling will do more for your legs than leg extentions though.

-sk

 

[coolcolj]

Just take a look at my legs - and I squat a lot
My leg size has gone from 24 to 28.5 inches with 2 years of squatting, and that's all I did. A lot of it too and no worksets over 5 reps either. My hips have gone up the same amount as well.
And I'm not even training for leg size.

The hips will grow in proportion to the legs, I used to think my hips grew faster, but the body never really lets things get out of hand. There is a natural size balance thing that kicks in.
I used to think my hips would outrun my quads, but that never did happen.

my legs starting blowing up when I started squatting oly style, all the way down and even more so with olyshoes. Olyshoes make a big difference here.

If you want to get the VMO heavily recruited you have to sit straight down and go rock bottom. Once you start to sit back they just down get hit as much.

Basicly you really need to crank the volume up. doing a few sets of squats HST is not gonna get it done. Especially if it's your weak point.

 

[from zero]

Squats = Quads.

I never had any quads before doing squats. Now after doing them, I have quads.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

 

[Debaser]

One thing to consider is that leg extensions are an unsafe movement. They place excessive shearing force on the knee. I know a couple guys that solely did them for their quads, and now have knee problems. During the very brief period in which I did them, I started to develop knee soreness as well. Snappy movements at the knee joint are unnatural and will lead to injury over time.

 

[Ish]

Deep front squats or zerchers? I'd pass on the extensions, if it were me.

 

[bigstve12]

Casual, your biomechanics is right on....but i think you have to look at whats tried and true...those who squat have larger quads. Maybe you should just play with your technique and switch it up a bit....

I know after a hard squat WO, only my ass and hammys are sore, but i do feel that my quads are larger then they were pre-squat days.

Try front squats, they are awkward at first, but once you get form down, they give you a killer burn

 

[Exodus]

i would recomend doing leg extensions first in your routine then squat, that seems like it will have a better yeild for you.

but if you just want to isolate the knee ext, with no hip extension, than you can still squat and do this.

sissy squats........... work like a leg extension, but using a squat movement, just keep your hip flexion down to a minimal and you will feel 90% quads, and barely be able to do any weight. by either holding a dumbell on top of the quad with 1 hand while holding on with the other, or strapping a dipping belt to you.

i just say be forewarned, all those exercises, including leg ext, are very rough on the knees.

X

 

[strangebrew]

Hmm, well in the 2 years ive been working out, squats have been the only leg exercise I've ever done. As a result, my quads have probably grown more than any other bodypart...

 

[Toozee]

I seem to have gotten pretty good results from Squats ......followed by several sets of 8-9oz Chicken + 1 or 2 cups pasta.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

I would give it a try. Obviously you aren't happy with your current leg development. Either you haven't found what works best for you (perhaps it's the hst program, exercise selection, etc), or you have crappy quad genetics. Although if squats aren't working for you, I don't know what will.

I would try a preexhuast (as someone else mentioned). Do leg ext, then a set of squats or leg press. See how that works.

 

[casualbb]

Casual, your biomechanics is right on....but i think you have to look at whats tried and true...those who squat have larger quads. Maybe you should just play with your technique and switch it up a bit....

Appreciate the advice...

Actually I've already done those things and I was so hoping that it would work. One of my main problems with squat is that I have residually F-ed up load distribution from injuring my right leg two years in a row, so only my left leg seems to grow from them. It's already wildly bigger than my right, and I want to halt that.

WRT knee issues, Debaser... I've heard that too. Seen some studies that leg extension puts more shearing force on the knee. Although since my legs are pretty weak I'm not worried about that.

The issue is that my hip extension is so much stronger than my leg extension (I SLDL 100 pounds more than I squat), I feel I need to target a weak point directly.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Actually I've already done those things and I was so hoping that it would work. One of my main problems with squat is that I have residually F-ed up load distribution from injuring my right leg two years in a row, so only my left leg seems to grow from them. It's already wildly bigger than my right, and I want to halt that.>>

Well it seems you found the problem. I would try ext, using one leg at a time, until the other catches up.

A lot of people are against using leg ext, but I think they are a fine addition to any leg program. As you put, your goal is building your thighs up, not to see how much you can squat. If squats weren't doing the trick for me, I would go in search of anything and everything that would.

 

[BigWh1tey]

Narrow stance ATF squats will blow up your quads. Stress on the knees is an issue when using maximal weights, but, if you stay in a resonable rep range ( 10+) and perform them in a slow specific manner you'll be fine.

 

[RottenWillow]

Excellent topic, one that's on my mind a lot lately.

I'm kind of trying to do exactly the opposite of casualbb however.

I'm a 5' 6" inch woman with 25.5' muscular thighs and 39" hips and I also want to determine for certain which exercises are most likely to build quad, hams, hips and glutes so I can avoid them. I have been concentrating more on extensions until lately since I thought they were the safest way to maintain a given level of muscularity and strength while minimizing the chance of hypertrophy.

I'm really enjoying the discussion, thanks guys.

 

[Ish]

Have you done much in the way of single leg squats to try and balance out your overcompensation?

Appreciate the advice...

Actually I've already done those things and I was so hoping that it would work. One of my main problems with squat is that I have residually F-ed up load distribution from injuring my right leg two years in a row, so only my left leg seems to grow from them. It's already wildly bigger than my right, and I want to halt that.

WRT knee issues, Debaser... I've heard that too. Seen some studies that leg extension puts more shearing force on the knee. Although since my legs are pretty weak I'm not worried about that.

The issue is that my hip extension is so much stronger than my leg extension (I SLDL 100 pounds more than I squat), I feel I need to target a weak point directly.

 

[spatts]

Narrow stance ATF squats will blow up your quads. Stress on the knees is an issue when using maximal weights, but, if you stay in a resonable rep range ( 10+) and perform them in a slow specific manner you'll be fine.

Well said.

All squats will recruit your quads. When's the last time you saw a PLer with small quads?

Most people I see with legs that are "too big" are really just carrying too much fat, that and/or they need to develop bigger shoulders. Remember, fat can be "hard" too.

 

[WalkingBeast]

Obviously it's not because of their ham and glute recruitment during hip extension; most of that is covered to a much better degree by some form of a deadlift. .

For whatever its worth. My DL off the floor is appraching 500lbs and I still dont feel it much in my legs at all. Even on the russian deadlifts from the floor, which I am approaching 600 on. They may get a little sore, but its more the joints then the muscle.

 

[coolcolj]

Appreciate the advice...

Actually I've already done those things and I was so hoping that it would work. One of my main problems with squat is that I have residually F-ed up load distribution from injuring my right leg two years in a row, so only my left leg seems to grow from them. It's already wildly bigger than my right, and I want to halt that.

WRT knee issues, Debaser... I've heard that too. Seen some studies that leg extension puts more shearing force on the knee. Although since my legs are pretty weak I'm not worried about that.

The issue is that my hip extension is so much stronger than my leg extension (I SLDL 100 pounds more than I squat), I feel I need to target a weak point directly.

Well why not do uni-lateral leg exercise ---> bulgarian splitsquats and stepups
This exercise really hits my VMO hard. And it will bring up the leg balance nicely.
Make the knee go really far forward though for your goals.
Just keep the upper body urpight.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

I cant help but think you just arent working them hard enough casual. Especially doing 100 pounds more on the SLDL than squatting. No way. Find the biggest guy in the gym and ask to train legs with him a few times. You just seem to have it in your head that squats somehow arent for you...and no doubt big legs wont be either.

 

[Becoming]

Lots of great posts in this thread... Bulgarians and step ups are awesome substituted in to the workout where people would normally use extensions... Also, they help develop stability aspects a leg ext does nothing for...

Also note you can start with dumbells and not a barbell on your back with the stepups, for safety reasons until you get some practice in!

 

[casualbb]

I cant help but think you just arent working them hard enough casual.

I wish it were an issue of effort and that I could just try harder and have it work. The issue is that my squats are screwed up! No matter what I do I shift off balance to the left and my right side comes up quicker and my left leg shifts out over the toe. Nothing I do both feels right and looks right. And it certainly doesn't grow right. My left leg looks like it belongs on a different person, and the reason it got that way is bilateral stuff like squats and leg presses. I need to change something... leg extensions may show promise.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Did you have some kind of injury?

edit: I see in your other post you mentioned having leg injuries. What are the nature of those injuries?

 

[casualbb]

Had a really bad right ankle sprain two years ago (actually tore some ligaments) that required a walking cast for 6 weeks. A year ago I reinjured it, but with less severity. My ankle is still pretty unstable... it randomly inverts inwards on unstable surfaces.

 

[Becoming]

I would try the step ups, start all the way down with no weight- I would be willing to bet it would quickly help bring up the strenght and stability of your weaker leg... I am sure there would be a huge difference at first, but after a few weeks, I think you would notice a huge difference...

 

[Backlash]

Great thread. I have noticed a lot of leg growth from doing squats (which I just started a few months ago), but it's mostly been in the upper thigh and butt area. I'd like to increase my lower quad size more... I think I'll give those bulgarian split squats a try.

Casual, for your leg imbalance - it still seems like even with unilateral instead of bilateral exercises your imbalance will remain unless you do a lot more work for your left leg than your right (or heavier weights, whatever). Is that your plan?

 

[bigstve12]

i think you might want to work on strengthening your ankles some. Torn ankle ligaments will cause you problems for the rest of your life. So what i would do in this situation is do unilateral leg stuff, step ups, leg ext, etc...but spend some time rehabbing the ankle.

 

[casualbb]

I may just do that... I don't know how I feel about this yet but I may ignore my left leg for half the cycle and see what happens.

I've been rehabbing the ankle according to my cert, which is a lot of core work and balance training. It's helped in terms of ankle stability but has had no effect on my squat.

Seeing as my left leg was built doing pressing motions (squat, leg press) I feel like the same should apply to the right.

What's a good height on the step-ups?

 

[Exodus]

nothing wrong with using an ankle brace to squat in.......... you know.

X

 

[casualbb]

nothing wrong with using an ankle brace to squat in.......... you know.

True... when I'm squatting it's not the ankle that was the issue though. In a nutshell, when I hurt the ankle and was in the cast, it changed some movement patterns and imbalanced some muscles. Instead of handling it then like I should've (I didn't know better), I just went ahead and built up my legs. The new muscle added just made the imbalances on my bad leg even worse.

In summary,
My left quad is much bigger,
My right hamstring is much bigger,
and my left abs and erectors are noticeably bigger

I just don't know what to do about this stuff

 

[Exodus]

In summary,
My left quad is much bigger,
My right hamstring is much bigger,
and my left abs and erectors are noticeably bigger

I just don't know what to do about this stuff

well actually everyone is like that. there is not such thing as a symmetrically pefect body.

even the wonderful arnold havd differences in arms, lats, quads pecs, etc etc.

peoples muscles you have this problem, 1 is larger, and stronger, but the other has a better shape.

unilatterals will help out a ton, but its something your going to have to reliaze effects us all.

X

 

[strangebrew]

well actually everyone is like that. there is not such thing as a symmetrically pefect body.

even the wonderful arnold havd differences in arms, lats, quads pecs, etc etc.

peoples muscles you have this problem, 1 is larger, and stronger, but the other has a better shape.

unilatterals will help out a ton, but its something your going to have to reliaze effects us all.

X

very true, basically my hold left side is bigger...my left arm is a whole half inch bigger than my right

 

[Exodus]

very true, basically my hold left side is bigger...my left arm is a whole half inch bigger than my right

im wierd. my muscles are like 50/50 in terms of which side is bigger. i have a bigger bicep on my right arm, but a bigger tricep on my left arm. right calf is bigger, left quad is bigger....... etc etc.

X

 

[strangebrew]

im wierd. my muscles are like 50/50 in terms of which side is bigger. i have a bigger bicep on my right arm, but a bigger tricep on my left arm. right calf is bigger, left quad is bigger....... etc etc.

X

I'm also pretty sure that my right side is stronger than my left