Some general Questions

[MrPink]

Hey folks...

First of all I have to say sorry for the questions.
I'm aware of the fact that they'd been posted before a thousand times I guess.
But forgive me, I'm a newbie.

1. For benching: Can I also use a smith-press? Coz the gym I visit just owns dumbells up to 85lbs and decline bench press can only be performed at a smith press.
For example to do max.effort benching decline at the smith press.

2. Benching: Some say "Don't use dumbells for max.effort just use 'em for dynamic bench day" and others tell the oposite...
Well, so what? Is it reasonable doing dumbell press with low reps?

3. Regarding the WSB-Principle: Would it work if I would do the 5x5 method for the Max.Effort exercises?
So, instead of lifting the maximum weight for one time just to do 5 sets of 5 reps?

4. For the dynamic effort bench day: I've read that some people here do light benching instead of speed training.
So I guess it's ok to replace the speed training by 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps?

5. light benching: I've read different things so far so please tell me: should I go to failure with these 8-12 reps or not? Or just in the last set?

6. I do heavy squat one time a week and heavy deadlift too.
But I don't do any speed training or even light training for the legs. Just 5 sets of 5 reps squats. Is it enough or should I add some more exercises on the heavy squat day?

7. I also do triceps and shoulder (some press. dumbell or smith press) one time a week in a range of 5 sets of 5 reps. I perform it on the light bench day. Opinions please, good or bad? (light triceps work and light shoulder work is done on the max.effort bench day)

8. In my gym I'm the only one doing Powerlifts and working in a lower range of reps. Now, some Bodybuilders told me that I'll lose size by doing "Powerlifting" and WSB-Method.
But actually I thought I'd grow up due to more heavy weights, less sets and higher intensity?

9. I change my accessory movements every 1-2 weeks but I always stick to my "basics" (squats, deadlift, flat barbell bench press). Should I change these too or may I stick to them coz I'm not working out with more than 80% of my 1RM?

Well, that's it I guess!
Would be nice if you could help me and gimme some hints.
Thanks!

 

[bignate73]

it sounds to me like you are doing more of a 5x5 with some WSB "terminology" mixed in. i would go read over at www.elitefts.com again to solidify your understanding of the protocol.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

First off, what are your goals? You posted on powerlifting, so I'll assume you're looking for more strength

Here's my opinions on your questions:

1. Smith Machine - no good. You need to stabilize the weight.

2. Low rep db press - I wouldn't do it. Too dangerous in my opinion.

3. 5x5 for Max Effort day - no. Max effort would be your max 1, 3, or 5 RM.

4. Dynamic effort day should be low reps. Bar speed is critical. When you do sets of 8-12 your speed slows down.

5. Light benching in 8-12 rep range is fine if you want bigger muscles, but not if you're training for strength.

6. Speed training on squat and deadlifts is important.

7. That's ok.

8. I doubt you'll lose size unless you've been training with high reps for years and years. I've added size by doing low reps.

9. You should at least do speed box squats, speed deads, and speed bench. You can rotate your ME movements with things like Good Mornings, Rack Pulls, Board Presses, etc.

 

[Liftbig]

1. i wouldnt use the smith machine unless you absolutely have to.
2. you can do dumbells for max effort in the 3-6 rep range if you have heavy enough dumbells. however i would only prefer to do dumbells for max effort if you are feeling pretty beat up, and in that case i would do higher reps.
3. you can work up to a 5rm if you like. but you will still want to do 3rm and 1rm too.
4. the point of dynamic benching is to develop power. light benching with 3 sets of 12 will NOT accomplish this.
5. dont go to failure on every set. dont go to failure all the time for that matter. occaisonally is ok.
6. going heavy twice a week on lower body is plenty, probably more than you need.
7. be more specific. i would prefer to do my heavier, lower rep, triceps on ME day, and do more high rep stuff on de day. but thats me, somtimes i do go heavy on de day though.
8. powerlifters are huge, period. you wont lose size.
9. when an accessory stops working for you, or you stop progressing on it, change to someting else. personally i change my accessories almost as often as my ME moves.

 

[MrPink]

Hey guys!

Thanks a lot for the quick replies!

I did Bodybuilding for years but for now I think it's time to add some strength and become more powerful, so I decided to give it a try for even a few months.

1. Ok, then I'll just use it for the next week for variety. Coz incline benching sucks imho and flat bench was done during the last weeks without any progress lately.

2. I'll stick to the dumbells on the dynamic day I guess.

3. So I should use the "regular form" like going to do 1RM? More weight at every set?
An additional questions:
I was told to do so:
- do 3 reps until weight is getting heavy
- add weight
- do 1 rep
- add weight
- do 1 rep
and so on until I'm unable to lift the bar alone.
Is this the correct method?
EDIT: Ok, that's the method. I've just read it.

4. Ok, speed sets will be added.

5. light benching gets kicked.

6. Ok, then I should really do the pure WSB with alternating squat and deadlift one week. One week heavy deadlift and light deadlift and the other same with squats.
But I should still do chins and rows on the max.effort day right?
And isn't it too less for my back just to do deadlifts every few weeks? Coz I've got a way better feeling in the back by doing deadlifts than doing squats!

9. Ok, as I said, my accessory changes every 1-2 weeks and as from now I'll also change the max.effort exercises periodically!

EDIT:
Ok, I just took a look at the WSB routines but I'm still not 100% sure if my improved routine now really fits. So please check it:

Monday: Max.Effort Bench day (I prefer to start the week with heavy benching coz it's my major goal)
- Bench Press down to 1RM, no matter how many sets it takes
- some triceps work 3x8-12 (sometimes last set to failure)
- some delt work (upright row, side raises,...) 3x8-12 (sometimes last set to failure)
- some abs

Wednesday: Max.Effort Squat/Deadlift day
- Squats or Deadlift to 1RM
- chins 3xmax
- some rows (T-Bar, dumbell, bent over) 3x8-12

Friday: Dynamic Bench day
- some chest exercise (barbell, dumbell) 10x3
- heavy delt work (presses) 5x5 (or should I change the sets and reps?)
- heavy triceps work 5x5
- abs

Saturday: Dynamic Squat/Deadlift day
- deadlift or suqats 10x3
- and then? Rows again?
- some biceps work 4x8-12
- abs

So please rate or gimme some more advices.
Sorry for asking so many qeustions, but I'm really a novice to that kind of training.

 

[spatts]

I'm new to this sport too, but I'll give it a go:

1. For benching: Can I also use a smith-press? Coz the gym I visit just owns dumbells up to 85lbs and decline bench press can only be performed at a smith press.
For example to do max.effort benching decline at the smith press.

Your question isn't geared toward powerlifting. People forget that powerlifting is a sport, and the whole point of training for a sport is to improve performance in competition. You will never bench with a smith machine in competition. If you were to do decline press as a main or accessory move, you would still want to make it as close to real bench as possible to recruit stabalizers and increase carry over. I personally haven't experience much carry over from declines.

2. Benching: Some say "Don't use dumbells for max.effort just use 'em for dynamic bench day" and others tell the oposite...
Well, so what? Is it reasonable doing dumbell press with low reps?

Once again, the idea is to improve your performance for competition, and in competition you're never going to bench with dumbbells. It would be silly to do them for max effort, IMO, for that reason. If you want to use them as accessory work, or in a special exercise after speed work for bringing up a weakness, I would never discourage that. I wouldn't do 1 RM db presses and then expect to see a PR on the platform. I would, however, expect an accident or injury.

3. Regarding the WSB-Principle: Would it work if I would do the 5x5 method for the Max.Effort exercises?
So, instead of lifting the maximum weight for one time just to do 5 sets of 5 reps?

You can do that, but don't call it Westside. I think this happens a lot. People take the general parameters of Westside, do it all wrong, and then say Westside doesn't work. Westside is set up SO loosely. You have a general guideline of principals, then you are expected to tailor it to yourself. This takes time, and the art of being able to listen to your body. It's also takes patience. I don't know how anyone could take a program so broad and generalized as writted, and change one of the few concrete functions of it, and still call it anything but Westside. Pick a method.

4. For the dynamic effort bench day: I've read that some people here do light benching instead of speed training.
So I guess it's ok to replace the speed training by 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps?

Once again, pick a method. If it's speed day, and you're not training for speed, then you aren't doing speed day. Moreover, you are not taining on a "westside split." You can replace it with 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps, but don't call it Westside, and don't tell people Westside doesn't work when you don't see the results.

5. light benching: I've read different things so far so please tell me: should I go to failure with these 8-12 reps or not? Or just in the last set?

See above.

6. I do heavy squat one time a week and heavy deadlift too.
But I don't do any speed training or even light training for the legs. Just 5 sets of 5 reps squats. Is it enough or should I add some more exercises on the heavy squat day?

I rotate max effort moves on a 3 week rotation (sometimes 4 weeks). One week is a dead move, one is a squat move, one is a GM move. I never max out a full ROM bench, squat, or deadlift in the gym. I only do that in competition. If you are looking to improve your squat, I would encourage you to look in to other moves like goodmornings, and heavy core work, to get the job done. If you get to a competition, and you're stuck at the bottom, you'll wish you had been training for speed and box squatting to get yourself out of the hole. Again, Westside is designed for a SPORT.


7. I also do triceps and shoulder (some press. dumbell or smith press) one time a week in a range of 5 sets of 5 reps. I perform it on the light bench day. Opinions please, good or bad? (light triceps work and light shoulder work is done on the max.effort bench day)

Light work is designed for hypertrophy. If you are looking to increase your bench, and want to do, for example, a 5 x 5 close grip bench as a secondary move to a speed day, I don't see the problem with that. However, don't neglect the point of that time, which is to work a different type of muscle fiber by varying the TUT (time under tension).

8. In my gym I'm the only one doing Powerlifts and working in a lower range of reps. Now, some Bodybuilders told me that I'll lose size by doing "Powerlifting" and WSB-Method.
But actually I thought I'd grow up due to more heavy weights, less sets and higher intensity?

I put on 20 pounds of LBM, clean, in my first year of powerlifting. That's more than in a previous year as a BBer that included a cycle. You have different muscle fiber types in your body, and some are gonna get stronger easier and some are going to grow easier. I don't know if you remember Arioch, but he mentioned that he could never get his tris to grow, although they were very strong. He had a biopsy done and found out that his fiber ratios were such that he was not EVER going to get large triceps. I suspect my hamstrings are similar. They aren't very big, but they aren't weak. Dave Tate told me I was all quad, and in size, he's right. But when he took me over to the glute ham calf raise, it took jacking up the back, putting a band around my neck, and holding a plate to get me to feel it. My point is, the more fiber types you're hitting, the more improvement you're going to see. With WSB you have low heavy reps (which can increase your natural test levels by around 20-30%), mid range moderate weight reps for speed, and high rep work for hypertrophy...then you also have recovery planned into your set up, and GPP work too. It's VERY well rounded, and I think that's why I get well rounded results. Many BBers train harder rather than smarter.

9. I change my accessory movements every 1-2 weeks but I always stick to my "basics" (squats, deadlift, flat barbell bench press). Should I change these too or may I stick to them coz I'm not working out with more than 80% of my 1RM?

Again, you're asking Westside questions about how to get around doing Westside. If you aren't working to more than 80% of your 1 RM on ME day, then it doesn't matter what your rotation is because you're not really doing the program. If you're going to make up your own thing, then make it all up. Otherwise you end up with a hybrid of some sort, and when it doesn't work, Westside will take the beating. From what I can see, you're not doing Westside at all. None of the fundamentals are in place, and there aren't many to begin with.

 

[MrPink]

Thanks for your detailed answer!
Well, for me it's not that easy to switch from well known Bodybuilding workout to a pure strength training, so i tried to mix it up a bit. But if you tell me that it's bullshit then I accept it and I'll change it (otherwise I wouldn't have asked)!

So I added a routine in my prior post, would this fit more?

About the Hypertrophy: Well, for bench I don't see any mid-rep exercises. It's just max.rep work and speed work!?
So no hypertrophy work for the pecs?

Another 2 points:
Is see no heavy shoulder work at the WSB routines.
May I stick to my beloved shoulder presses or should I kick it too?

You say that you never max out your 1RM in the gym.
So how does your workout look like? You're just going down to 3 reps and the quit the training?

 

[spatts]

Please understand that if you want to do your own hybrid, I'm all for that, just don't call it Westside.

Speed work IS mid-range.

Powerlifters don't use the pecs as the primary movers in a bench press. Powerlifters don't bench like body builders. If you want to add in extra work for hypertrophy in the pecs, then you can add a chest accessory movement to one of your bench days.

 

[MrPink]

Argh...your faster in answering than I can edit my prior message.

So you think 10 sets of 3 reps is for hypertrophy?

I'm not sure if I want to built up my own hybrid, I just wanna become stronger and due to that I watch out for some advice by people who are used to it!

 

[spatts]

I think it's ALL for hypertrophy, because different fibers get hit from different stimulus. I used to do high rep work...I grew some. Then I started westside, which only added low/heavy work to my training, and I gained a lot of muscle. People who believe in TUT theories will tell you that higher ranges are supposed to be for hypertrophy, and in most people that's probably true. I believe it varies person to person and muscle to muscle. It does for me, anyway. The point is that it's well rounded. When you're doing everything you can to get bigger and stronger, rather than just half of what you can do, you're going to see results. Any BBer who hasn't trained for strength hasn't even scratched the surface of his/her genetical potential.

 

[MrPink]

Ok, that's what I expected to hear.

But I still need a comment about my "improved" routine.
Do you think this would work better?

Monday: Max.Effort Bench day (I prefer to start the week with heavy benching coz it's my major goal)
- Bench Press down to 1RM, no matter how many sets it takes
- some triceps work 3x8-12 (sometimes last set to failure)
- some delt work (upright row, side raises,...) 3x8-12 (sometimes last set to failure)
- some abs

Wednesday: Max.Effort Squat/Deadlift day
- Squats or Deadlift to 1RM
- chins 3xmax
- some rows (T-Bar, dumbell, bent over) 3x8-12

Friday: Dynamic Bench day
- some chest exercise (barbell, dumbell) 10x3
- heavy delt work (presses) 5x5 (or should I change the sets and reps?)
- heavy triceps work 5x5
- abs

Saturday: Dynamic Squat/Deadlift day
- deadlift or suqats 10x3
- and then? Rows again?
- some biceps work 4x8-12
- abs

And again my 2 questions from above:
Is see no heavy shoulder work at the WSB routines.
May I stick to my beloved shoulder presses or should I kick it too?

You say that you never max out your 1RM in the gym.
So how does your workout look like? You're just going down to 3 reps and the quit the training?

 

[bignate73]

Any BBer who hasn't trained for strength hasn't even scratched the surface of his/her genetical potential.

that about sums it up for me!

 

[spatts]

Ok, that's what I expected to hear.

But I still need a comment about my "improved" routine.
Do you think this would work better?

I will tell you what I would do differently and why...that doesn't make it right or wrong.

Monday: Max.Effort Bench day (I prefer to start the week with heavy benching coz it's my major goal)
- Bench Press down to 1RM, no matter how many sets it takes
- some triceps work 3x8-12 (sometimes last set to failure)
- some delt work (upright row, side raises,...) 3x8-12 (sometimes last set to failure)
- some abs

I would save the abs for squat/dead day and do something for the lats instead.


Wednesday: Max.Effort Squat/Deadlift day
- Squats or Deadlift to 1RM
- chins 3xmax
- some rows (T-Bar, dumbell, bent over) 3x8-12

I would do a squat partial or a deadlift partial, not a full rom squat or dead. Chins and rows have nothing to do with your squat. On squat day, train your core and hamstrings. I would do a SLDL, reverse hypers, and heavy ab/oblique work on this day.

Friday: Dynamic Bench day
- some chest exercise (barbell, dumbell) 10x3
- heavy delt work (presses) 5x5 (or should I change the sets and reps?)
- heavy triceps work 5x5
- abs

Speed bench means your first move is speed bench in a full ROM for SPEED. This mean you should take around 40% of your bench max and do about 8 x 3 for SPEED, with a barbell. I would then do a tri move, a shoulder move, and a lat move in a high rep range at moderate weight. Done.

I would not do two speed days back to back. There's a reason Westside is split out like it is.

Saturday: Dynamic Squat/Deadlift day
- deadlift or suqats 10x3
- and then? Rows again?
- some biceps work 4x8-12
- abs

This day always starts with speed squats on a box, for about 8 x 2 @ 40%. Rows, biceps and abs have nothing to do with your squat or deadlift. My second move would be speed deads, then I would do a hamstring move, a lower back move, and a ab/oblique move.

And again my 2 questions from above:
Is see no heavy shoulder work at the WSB routines.
May I stick to my beloved shoulder presses or should I kick it too?

If you don't see any heavy shoulder work, then you aren't benching right. Your presses will fit in fine on ME bench day after your main move.

You say that you never max out your 1RM in the gym.
So how does your workout look like? You're just going down to 3 reps and the quit the training?

No. I max out on paritals. I said I never max out a "full ROM."

I would encourage you to start a training journal thread so we can help you on a day to day basis. It will be a good learning tool for you, and we can make sure you're understanding why you're doing what you're doing. Also, take a look at other training threads. I have an old one on training somewhere from my first days of Westside, liftbig has one, hannibal's doing one, etc...

 

[MrPink]

Ok, thanks again.

Since I'm doing good progress with the routine I've posted above I think I should stick to it for a while.
Just my bench press got stuck.

So for now I see no reason to change (just adding speed bench and speed squats) but I won't dare to call it Westside again.

But for sure I'll give the Westside routine a try in a few months.

I hope you aren't pissed and thanks for your help!

EDIT:
Sorry, I have to bother again.

I just read the previous posts again and for one thing I'm not sure:
My routine, posted above, do you think it could work or will work in general?
Coz sometimes it's seems that you were just pissed of me calling it Westside.

 

[spatts]

Oh, it takes more than you can dish out to piss me off, I'm sure.

Good luck!

 

[MrPink]

Ok, great.
Coz it's not my goal to drive you crazy!

Sorry, I have to bother again.

I just read the previous posts again and for one thing I'm not sure:
My routine, posted above, do you think it could work or will work in general?
Coz sometimes it's seems that you were just pissed of me calling it Westside.

 

[spatts]

It may or may not work, and if it doesn't, then you'll know what to fix. Trial and error...that's all you can do.

I was never pissed. If you're not doing Westside, don't call it Westside. I don't call what I do The Jane Fonda Workout. lol

 

[MrPink]

Just one more question.
By going down to 1RM or 3RM at the lifts, what about the prior sets?
How much sets should be done to failure?
Just the last one?

E.g. if I start warmup with 5 reps.
Then I put on some more heavy weight, do 3 Reps, add more weight and do another 3 and so on....at which set should I try to push maximum reps?
And how much maximum sets should be performed?

 

[spatts]

When 3 starts to get hard, switch to one.

"How much (I assume you mean "many") maximum sets should be performed?"

Think about what you just asked. If it's your max, you shouldn't be ABLE to do it again. If you can do it again, you should've added more weight.

 

[MrPink]

Ok, but for example I could do 3 reps by using such a wieght that I just can handle the 3 reps. The next set I add some more weight and do one rep or maybe 2 if possible.
After that I add some more and try again to do 1 rep.
With that method I would have 3 sets of maximum reps.
But ok, I'll do the way you told me.

And after that I could add another exercise for the chest where I use higher reps for 2-3 sets?
Or would this be overkill for my pecs?

 

[Liftbig]

dont worry about the 3 sets of maximum reps thing, heres how i would do things if i were working up to a PR on the reverse band press... with a current pr of 545
barx10
135x5
185x3
225x3
275x3
315x3
365x1 note: triples are not hard at this point, i just switch to singles here becuase i feel like it, and to save some energy for the PR lift, however if i was not close to a meet i would keep doing triples up to 425 or 455 to get some more work in,
405x1
455x1
495x1
525x1
550x1

after your me exercise you can do dumbell presses for your chest, or you can do illegal wide grip presses(take a wider grip then the rings) for your chest.

 

[spatts]

No, it's not 3 sets of maximum reps. You might be working close to your max...like 97%, 99%, etc...but you only have ONE TRUE MAX. The goal is to hit it.

 

[MrPink]

Ok, and it will be done that way.

About the accessory chest work:
how many sets, reps and to failure or not?

 

[spatts]

I haven't trained my chest or quads in years, so I couldn't tell ya.

I never train to muscle failure anyway.

 

[Liftbig]

sets and reps are up to you, i usually do something generic like 3x10, or 4x10. depends on how im feeling. occasionally i will take an exercise and try to break a rep PR, like bench with 225 or 315, or dumbell presses with 100's or 120's.

 

[MrPink]

Ok, then again to be sure.
My bench days now look like this:

Day 1:
Bench press (changing exercises) to 1RM
some more bench 3x10
tricpes 3x10
shoulder 3x10

Day 2:
speed bench 9x3
shoulder 5x5
tricpes (extension or close grip bench) 5x5

Ok? Or do you have some more suggestions for an improvement?

 

[Liftbig]

add some upper back work.

 

[BigWh1tey]

Raw Day:
work up to heavy triple (or fail trying) (eg: 135,185,225,275,315,365,385 )
Low board presses (3 board ) for triples
Rack lockouts work up to a heavy (110-120%)weight in triples then either 10 sets of 3 or 5-7 sets of 1.
( some lat work , some shoulder work , some tri work )

Day 2 Shirt :
work up to raw sub max triple ( about 60-70% shirted max),
shirt up and work up in triples or singles to new PR .
high board work* (5 board) work up to a heavy triple or fail trying.
move down a board* (4 board) work up to heavy triple or fail trying.
( maybe some tris or shoulders depending on how beat up you are).
*boards may be performed b4 shirt work on this day .

my .02 about speed work:
I am far more explosive now training MM style then i ever was when i concentrated on a Speed Day for BP. I can easily rail up 50% of my shirted max for a triple in less than 3 seconds w/o having done any "speed work" in about 9 months. My elbows and shoulders feel 100% better then they did when i was using the dynamic approach. Rarely, but occasionlly at NazBar some people will hit 50-60% for 8-10 sets of 3 after all the other work on Shirt Day, rarely. I have more to say about this , but this isn't the thread to do it on. just my .02