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should U.S. start controlling population growth?
- Thread starter decem
- Start date
THeMaCHinE
New member
I shouldn't even enter into this conversation as I don't have time to pursue replies, etc. If I don't reply, please excuse... it's not because I don't want to...
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"One-Child Population Control Policy" of Communist China
* Initiated In 1979
* One child per couple
* All pregnancies must be authorized.
* Birth quotas (allowed numbers) are determined to attain the population targets (goals).
* Women are required to obtain a birth coupon before conceiving a child.
* Menstrual cycles are publicly monitored.
* Pelvic examinations are performed on all those suspected of being pregnant.
* All unauthorized pregnancies are terminated by abortion when detected regardless of stage of pregnancy. Use of forceps to crush the baby's skull or injecting pure formaldehyde into the soft cap of baby's head during or upon birth are means for "aborting" fully developed babies. Drowning or Smothering occurs in rural areas.
* Mandatory IUD insertion in women with one child. A one size large steel "O" ring IUD is used. Removal is difficult and X ray detection is possible. Other type IUDs are banned.
* Mandatory sterilization of couples with two or more children (November 1982 official circular of the Party Central Committee and the State Council).
* High rate of infanticide and abandonment of girl babies.
In accordance with Chinese tradition, daughters join the families of their husbands upon marriage and are seldom able to offer support or care for their parents in old age. By 1990 thousands of ultrasound machines were being imported to China. Domestic factories in China began manufacturing at the rate of 10,000 a year. In 1993 authorities banned the use of ultrasound for the purpose of sex selection, but the ban seems to be virtually unenforceable. Reports of sex ratios at birth for some areas has been 300 males to 100 females. A 1991 article in a Shanghai journal warned that if the sex ratios continued to rise, by the end of the century China would have an army of bachelors numbering some 70 million strong.
Official data on abortions show the annual total number of abortions increased between 1985 and 1990. Official data on birth control surgeries after 1990 are not available.
In 1983, the all-time peak year, family planning work teams carried out 21 million sterilizations, 18 million IUD insertions, and 14 million abortions (79 percent of the 21 million sterilization performed were performed on women).
More than half a billion birth control surgeries were performed between 1971 and 1990 (94 percent were performed on women). The Chinese government has conducted a highly coercive family planning program for 25 years.
Coercion, Punishment and Tactics
* Women who resist abortions for unauthorized pregnancies are harassed, visited repeatedly, and sometimes held by family planning workers until they comply.
* Night raids have occurred to capture women hiding or trying to flee from the birth planning workers.
* Extreme fines are given for unauthorized births often exceeding a family's total income.
* Illegal children (unauthorized births) are not entered on population register so the child receives no medical benefits, no grain rations, no opportunity to attend school, and no chance for employment.
* A "responsibility system" was instituted in 1961 for management of family planning targets. National targets are broken down into specific targets for the provinces.
* Provincial governors are required to sign contracts with central authorities to fulfill provincial population targets. Each level of authority signs with lower authority. In the late 1980's central authorities added a policy under which a leader who fails to meet his family planning targets is considered a failure and is penalized accordingly. Penalties include loss of bonuses, promotions and even their jobs.
* Since the 1980's the provinces have been encouraged to set up "qualified birth control villages." Couples eligible to have children under family planning regulations may only do so if no one in the village has an unauthorized pregnancy or birth.
* Lack of results is taken as proof the locals neglected to "strengthen their leadership" over family planning work.
* Washington Post described house smashing and high forced sterilization rates in 1991 and 1992.
* April 1993 - New York Times reports punishment by severe fines, confiscation of property, smashed houses, and physical beatings.
http://www.forerunner.com/lci/X0004_Population_Control_C.html
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Are you going to be the guy that jams knifes into the heads of "unauthorized" babies as they do in China? You know, India had a population control method of tying unwanted female babies/children to poles and letting them starve to death.
I'm of the opinion that man will fix problems when he needs to. IF (despite all the stats in the world, things may change) it ever gets to the catacalysmic proportions that you fear, perhaps colonization of other planets, ocean colonies/farming and other things will be brought to the forefront. There are solutions that we have no concept of because the technology will be developed in the future and will be application-specific.
There may be other avenues to explore that don't involve wholesale murder of children.
Here's some other people's thoughts (some I'm with, some I'm not -- I'm just putting foward the info).
http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-15-99.html
http://www.colby.edu/personal/t/thtieten/pop-chi.html
The study finds that a lower fertility rate is a result of an adverse shock to agricultural output and a preference shift away from fertility. Government enforcement appears to induce only short term decreases. The empirical evidence suggests that only shocks to preferences (rather than government power) have induced long fertility cycles in China. The historical decompositions show that the sustained fall in fertility experienced by China in the 1970's is primarily explained by preference shifts. The results suggest that population control is not sufficient to promote economic development or sustainability without permanent shifts in individual preferences.
http://www.johnstons.org/roy/pages/populat.html
-------
"One-Child Population Control Policy" of Communist China
* Initiated In 1979
* One child per couple
* All pregnancies must be authorized.
* Birth quotas (allowed numbers) are determined to attain the population targets (goals).
* Women are required to obtain a birth coupon before conceiving a child.
* Menstrual cycles are publicly monitored.
* Pelvic examinations are performed on all those suspected of being pregnant.
* All unauthorized pregnancies are terminated by abortion when detected regardless of stage of pregnancy. Use of forceps to crush the baby's skull or injecting pure formaldehyde into the soft cap of baby's head during or upon birth are means for "aborting" fully developed babies. Drowning or Smothering occurs in rural areas.
* Mandatory IUD insertion in women with one child. A one size large steel "O" ring IUD is used. Removal is difficult and X ray detection is possible. Other type IUDs are banned.
* Mandatory sterilization of couples with two or more children (November 1982 official circular of the Party Central Committee and the State Council).
* High rate of infanticide and abandonment of girl babies.
In accordance with Chinese tradition, daughters join the families of their husbands upon marriage and are seldom able to offer support or care for their parents in old age. By 1990 thousands of ultrasound machines were being imported to China. Domestic factories in China began manufacturing at the rate of 10,000 a year. In 1993 authorities banned the use of ultrasound for the purpose of sex selection, but the ban seems to be virtually unenforceable. Reports of sex ratios at birth for some areas has been 300 males to 100 females. A 1991 article in a Shanghai journal warned that if the sex ratios continued to rise, by the end of the century China would have an army of bachelors numbering some 70 million strong.
Official data on abortions show the annual total number of abortions increased between 1985 and 1990. Official data on birth control surgeries after 1990 are not available.
In 1983, the all-time peak year, family planning work teams carried out 21 million sterilizations, 18 million IUD insertions, and 14 million abortions (79 percent of the 21 million sterilization performed were performed on women).
More than half a billion birth control surgeries were performed between 1971 and 1990 (94 percent were performed on women). The Chinese government has conducted a highly coercive family planning program for 25 years.
Coercion, Punishment and Tactics
* Women who resist abortions for unauthorized pregnancies are harassed, visited repeatedly, and sometimes held by family planning workers until they comply.
* Night raids have occurred to capture women hiding or trying to flee from the birth planning workers.
* Extreme fines are given for unauthorized births often exceeding a family's total income.
* Illegal children (unauthorized births) are not entered on population register so the child receives no medical benefits, no grain rations, no opportunity to attend school, and no chance for employment.
* A "responsibility system" was instituted in 1961 for management of family planning targets. National targets are broken down into specific targets for the provinces.
* Provincial governors are required to sign contracts with central authorities to fulfill provincial population targets. Each level of authority signs with lower authority. In the late 1980's central authorities added a policy under which a leader who fails to meet his family planning targets is considered a failure and is penalized accordingly. Penalties include loss of bonuses, promotions and even their jobs.
* Since the 1980's the provinces have been encouraged to set up "qualified birth control villages." Couples eligible to have children under family planning regulations may only do so if no one in the village has an unauthorized pregnancy or birth.
* Lack of results is taken as proof the locals neglected to "strengthen their leadership" over family planning work.
* Washington Post described house smashing and high forced sterilization rates in 1991 and 1992.
* April 1993 - New York Times reports punishment by severe fines, confiscation of property, smashed houses, and physical beatings.
http://www.forerunner.com/lci/X0004_Population_Control_C.html
-------------
Are you going to be the guy that jams knifes into the heads of "unauthorized" babies as they do in China? You know, India had a population control method of tying unwanted female babies/children to poles and letting them starve to death.
I'm of the opinion that man will fix problems when he needs to. IF (despite all the stats in the world, things may change) it ever gets to the catacalysmic proportions that you fear, perhaps colonization of other planets, ocean colonies/farming and other things will be brought to the forefront. There are solutions that we have no concept of because the technology will be developed in the future and will be application-specific.
There may be other avenues to explore that don't involve wholesale murder of children.
Here's some other people's thoughts (some I'm with, some I'm not -- I'm just putting foward the info).
http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-15-99.html
http://www.colby.edu/personal/t/thtieten/pop-chi.html
The study finds that a lower fertility rate is a result of an adverse shock to agricultural output and a preference shift away from fertility. Government enforcement appears to induce only short term decreases. The empirical evidence suggests that only shocks to preferences (rather than government power) have induced long fertility cycles in China. The historical decompositions show that the sustained fall in fertility experienced by China in the 1970's is primarily explained by preference shifts. The results suggest that population control is not sufficient to promote economic development or sustainability without permanent shifts in individual preferences.
http://www.johnstons.org/roy/pages/populat.html
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listen assholes.. talk about the fucking movie in a different damn thread.. and concentrate on the question at hand..
manny.. it is in our constitution.. so is the world supposed to adapt to the constitution.. shouldn't the constitution have to adapt to the world? why can't we change it? it is a democracy..
crazier.. i do think that we should limit the amount of children we are allowed to have. i also think that the number of children you are allowed to have should depend on where you're at in the tax bracket.. which would determine how capable you are of providing for the children... which would result in a less of a burden on the government for taking care of such programs and welfare and food stamps... and more money for them to put towards science and research.
raina.. you may be joking.. but you bring up a good point.. soon.. thanks to research such as the genome project.. we will have the ability to determine if the child of a couple will be smart, healthy, sane.. as well as whether they're likely to be a criminal.. have a short or long life-span.. etc.. why shouldn't we use this to our advantage??
manny.. it is in our constitution.. so is the world supposed to adapt to the constitution.. shouldn't the constitution have to adapt to the world? why can't we change it? it is a democracy..
crazier.. i do think that we should limit the amount of children we are allowed to have. i also think that the number of children you are allowed to have should depend on where you're at in the tax bracket.. which would determine how capable you are of providing for the children... which would result in a less of a burden on the government for taking care of such programs and welfare and food stamps... and more money for them to put towards science and research.
raina.. you may be joking.. but you bring up a good point.. soon.. thanks to research such as the genome project.. we will have the ability to determine if the child of a couple will be smart, healthy, sane.. as well as whether they're likely to be a criminal.. have a short or long life-span.. etc.. why shouldn't we use this to our advantage??
People really show their ignorance and arrogance in threads like this.
Danielson - It is the third world countries, by far, that are engaging in behavior harmful to the Earth. For example, they are just discovering freon, the king of ozone eating gases. Modern countries have gone away from this shit years ago. Likewise, theird world countries engage on unwise handling of other pollution issues, such as dumping, etc.
Decem - The energy resources of this planet are near limitless. We just have to learn to use things like nuclear power, and accept it as reality. It is oil companies and the like that are holding back this progress.
Nature Boy - You criticize old people for "not really living". what are you doing, that is so great? Do you pay anyone's salaries? Who benefits, from your existence? If we off-ed you, who;d notice, outside your family?
Decem again - your post about an overcrowded world with no yards, etc. is not going to happen. Good old fashioned ignorance...refreshing.
Nature will take care of this problem - it always has, and it always will.
Where is population growth happening fastest? Africa. Over there, AIDS is running rampant, killinfg people, controling population. AIDS is also running rampant in China and in India; they just don't leak that kind of news...but it is decimating their population.
In the Middle Ages, in Europe, when the population was exploding, the Black Death came along and wiped out 75,000,000 people. Look for much higher numbers by the time AIDS runs its course.
NAture will take care of this. In the meantime, I suggest you do something productive with your own life.
Danielson - It is the third world countries, by far, that are engaging in behavior harmful to the Earth. For example, they are just discovering freon, the king of ozone eating gases. Modern countries have gone away from this shit years ago. Likewise, theird world countries engage on unwise handling of other pollution issues, such as dumping, etc.
Decem - The energy resources of this planet are near limitless. We just have to learn to use things like nuclear power, and accept it as reality. It is oil companies and the like that are holding back this progress.
Nature Boy - You criticize old people for "not really living". what are you doing, that is so great? Do you pay anyone's salaries? Who benefits, from your existence? If we off-ed you, who;d notice, outside your family?
Decem again - your post about an overcrowded world with no yards, etc. is not going to happen. Good old fashioned ignorance...refreshing.
Nature will take care of this problem - it always has, and it always will.
Where is population growth happening fastest? Africa. Over there, AIDS is running rampant, killinfg people, controling population. AIDS is also running rampant in China and in India; they just don't leak that kind of news...but it is decimating their population.
In the Middle Ages, in Europe, when the population was exploding, the Black Death came along and wiped out 75,000,000 people. Look for much higher numbers by the time AIDS runs its course.
NAture will take care of this. In the meantime, I suggest you do something productive with your own life.
MattTheSkywalker said:
1. ok.. the energy supplies maybe limitless.. but what about the soil? how long until it so depleted of minerals that it will be incapable of yielding any harvest of any crop.. soil depletion is real.. and it is a major concern.. or so it should be..
another question for you.. regarding oil and pollution and what not.. how much of an impact do you think the automobile and petroleum industries have on the economies of the world? when pollution as a result of both of these industries begins to force us to find other means of travel and other sources of industry.. what is going to take over? will it be able to support the economy as well as these two industries do? or will economies the world over crumble?
2. ok... so you're saying that the amount of farmable land has not decreased in the previous 50 years? and you're also saying that the population growth has no effect on the amount of land available for anything other than housing or roads or land fills or office buildings? sorry bud.. but you're the ignorant one here.
ask your grandma if she notices any difference in the amount of land today.. in the amount of concrete covering it.. in the amount of housing where there used to be green fields.. as compared to just 20 years ago. shit.. ask your mother.. she'll tell you that land is disappearing left and right..
did you know that in the 1700's 95% of ohio was covered with trees.. and what is it today.. maybe 20%?? do you think that the loss of those trees from ohio alone has had no impact on the amount of oxygen in the air? did you know that those trees were cleared to support a growing population? how much longer until there are no trees? no oxygen?
3. this is what we must fight.. viewpoints like matt's. those people who are so ready to sit on their ass and pass the problems onto the next generation. those who are unwilling to open their eyes and realize that their is indeed a problem and that intervention is necessary.
MattTheSkywalker said:
i agree with this, the china man and his fridge was the reference to freon
....thats why the rest of the world is so frightened at the thought of these guys becoming so industrialisedhowever, we as the western world haven't found many alternatives to oil....and we are using it a lot! its probably one of the most important industrail resources we have, and almos every country is dependant on it in one form or another (drugs, materials, fuel)
true, i think bush did make a shift to producing more energy via coal. but thats only a short term answer...he needs to throw lots of money into alternate energy sources. i cant remember if he did this
....either way the western world consumes a hell of a lot of oil, i'd wager more than the developing nations also over irrigation/rapid creation of farmable land has lead to problems round the globe, US included
the nature boy
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
so you're saying we don't pollute as much as the 3rd world? how can you prove that? Who creates more trash and toxic and radioactive waste? Do you know? Freon is just a minor cause of ozone depletion?. Animals used for food consumption are more harmful to the ozone anyway. And who consumes more food and uses animals for food than the industrialized world? Who uses more pollution causing energy?
Also, while the 3rd world does cause pollution, they are not able to afford such anti pollution measures as the industrialized world. They have a hard enough time competeing as it is. Sadly the only way to rectify that matter is for the industrialized world to help. But that won't happen if we are to keep our economic advantage.
ignorant. yeah right.
According to CNN China population growth is flat at present time....and they have created another problem 20% more men then women because of the one child policy.
This is from overpopulation.com...sorry link wouldn't work so I had to post text. Oh and it has a story on that site that backs up what Matt said about AIDS in China
Monday, February 01, 1999
A far more disruptive phenomenon than the aging of the population is China's sex ratio which has only grown worse in the past few years -- the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing reports that there are now 120 males for every 100 females in China. Historically, China has had a high sex ratio, but this level is unheard of in modern times.
The culprit appears to be modern technology combined with the one child policy. The male to female gap has grew significantly in 1980s and 1990s with the introduction of ultrasound and amniocentesis technologies into China. Both techniques made it much easier for parents to determine the sex of a fetus and abort female fetuses if desired. A study of the sex ratios of live births at 900 Chinese hospitals found the sex ratio increased from 108 in 1989 to 109.7 in 1991. Other Asian nations have seen their sex ratios increase as well, though none to the extent of China's.
Ironically China's one-child policy indirectly encourages couples to abort female fetuses. Since many Chinese still see the ideal family as one boy and one girl, a relaxation of the one child policy would likely discourage the strong tendency to use sex selective abortion to ensure the first child is a male in case the parents don't get the chance or can't afford to have a second child (in many parts of China, large fees are imposes on couples who have more than one child).
This is from overpopulation.com...sorry link wouldn't work so I had to post text. Oh and it has a story on that site that backs up what Matt said about AIDS in China
Monday, February 01, 1999
A far more disruptive phenomenon than the aging of the population is China's sex ratio which has only grown worse in the past few years -- the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing reports that there are now 120 males for every 100 females in China. Historically, China has had a high sex ratio, but this level is unheard of in modern times.
The culprit appears to be modern technology combined with the one child policy. The male to female gap has grew significantly in 1980s and 1990s with the introduction of ultrasound and amniocentesis technologies into China. Both techniques made it much easier for parents to determine the sex of a fetus and abort female fetuses if desired. A study of the sex ratios of live births at 900 Chinese hospitals found the sex ratio increased from 108 in 1989 to 109.7 in 1991. Other Asian nations have seen their sex ratios increase as well, though none to the extent of China's.
Ironically China's one-child policy indirectly encourages couples to abort female fetuses. Since many Chinese still see the ideal family as one boy and one girl, a relaxation of the one child policy would likely discourage the strong tendency to use sex selective abortion to ensure the first child is a male in case the parents don't get the chance or can't afford to have a second child (in many parts of China, large fees are imposes on couples who have more than one child).
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