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Rows

iggy

Elite Mentor
Platinum
Hey guys,

just wanted your opinion on my whole row situation on back days.
my two favorite kind of rows are seated pulley rows, and one armed db rows. Are those enough to make my back get bigger for now? Or should i try to incorporate Barbell Rows into my program even though i have fairly bad form at them and it always seems to hurt my lower back a bit. Today my routine went like this.

Deadlifts - 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 245x5, 255x5
Chins - 9, 4, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 = 26 total
One Armed DB Rows - 40x20, 45x16, 55x12, 60x8
Seated Pulley Rows - 130x18, 140x14, 150x12, 160x8

Was going to do lat pulldowns behind the neck but they kicked me out of the gym because it was closing time.

I've heard good things about pendlay rows, are those a good exercise to encorporate into your regiment?
 
Ok - think about how the body is meant to perform a rowing motion - like a rowboat or better yet a crew shell since this puppy is made for speed and setup most advantageously for each rower. They are pulling directly into themselves, meaning that they are perpendicular to the resistence (their torso for the most part is at 90 degrees to the plane of water which serves as the resistence). I will throw in the caveate that the torso is not stationary during the row and it is very much a full body pull but you do get the point. Your back's primary rowing power is directly back. This allows the lats to be most heavily activated throughout the range of motion.

Translating that motion into weights, the resistence for a weight is gravity which is on a vertical plane contrary to water's horizontal plane - both are the respective sources of resistence. Where the rower was upright at 90 degrees to the horizontal resistence, the weightlifter's resistence is now vertical - so 90 degrees to vertical means your back is horizontal to the floor.

So that's the essence of where the 90 degrees comes from.

Moving beyond that, rowing is a fairly fundemental motion and with significant weight it is damn hard to stay perfectly still and I'd venture a bit unnatural - you will find there are more dynamic methods of rowing with a barbell out there but this is the base (see the Johnsmith182 sticky at meso's training board linked here if you are curious - excellent read by the way - best 20 minutes you will spend: (Best of Meso) Best of JohnSmith articles - MESO-Rx). So anyway, you tend to pull back a bit with heavy weight anyway and that is how rows should be done heavy and explosive. You should be accelerating that bar into your body. So someone starting at 90 degrees generally ends up cheating back just a bit and that's okay.

In addition, a lot of guys lack the flexability to keep their back flat and perform the exercise as they get near the 90 degree point. In that case you shoot for 90 degrees but you go to where your body is comfortable.

The reason why I stress it is because we have all seen the dochebags in the gym standing almost vertical and rowing through a minute range of motion. This is crap. It doesn't allow for proper activation of the lats since you aren't pulling in but up, the range of motion is drastically reduced, and on top of that you wind up looking like a moron so there's really nothing good to come of it.

As for starting the motion at 45 degrees, I can't say it's optimal unless you can't get any lower (in which case flexability work or core strengthening would be my suggestion depending on the issue causing this). If you start at 45 degrees and row hard, you'll find yourself above 45 degrees at peak contraction and possibly significantly. Your range of motion is cut, your lats aren't getting proper activation because you are no longer pulling in but pulling up and you will end up relying on other muscles to generate the momentum (and that necessitates further straightening of the back).

So anyway, it's a soft rule when I say 90 degrees. I am fairly flexible and I can get close but not a full 90 (you see this in the goodmorning too - everyone has a different range of motion). That said, the soft rule is meant to provide the necessary margin to correctly perform the exercise. There is a hard rule right behind it saying that you absolutely must come as close as you are able to the 90 degrees. Significant deviation compromises the exercise.

Huge reply but it's better to give someone the full explanation. Give it some thought and do some rowing in the gym the next time - performing the motion makes it crystal clear. Be sure to work on accelerating the rep. A rower accelerates the oar through the water working harder and harder throughout the range of the stroke. He doesn't stop pulling hard once he gets the oar moving. This is critical to rowing success in the gym but watch your rib cage on the light ones.
 
^^^^Good Post^^^^

Deadlifts, BB rows, and chins are the way to go. Cables and DB rows do have there place, but these are the supreme back builders.
 
SL and Enigma... do you guys do pullups ( hands facing away), chins ( hands facing toward me) or both? I know it is somewhat of a semantic but I do both on back day with pullups being wide grip and chins being narrow grip. I find they target the lat slightly different. I also pyramid up my 5 sets of each with a 45lb plate hanging on a dip belt at the top for 6 or 7 reps. My back day is DL, pullup, chin, bb bent over row, "high" row machine. (( SL - I think we discussed 90 degree and which way hands face. I agree the 90 degree really makes a difference after we "spoke" .)) I also do triceps on back day. They get a workout on chest day so doing tris on back day and bis on chest day give them a double hit. I don't do a lot of sets for bis/tris though.
 
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SL and Enigma... do you guys do pullups ( hands facing away), chins ( hands facing toward me) or both? I know it is somewhat of a semantic but I do both on back day with pullups being wide grip and chins being narrow grip. I find they target the lat slightly different. I also hang a pyramid up my 5 sets of each with a 45lb plate at the top for 6 or 7 reps. My back day is DL, pullup, chin, bb bent over row, "high" row machine. (( SL - I think we discussed 90 degree and which way hands face. I agree the 90 degree really makes a difference after we "spoke" .)) I also do triceps on back day. They get a workout on chest day so doing tris on back day and bis on chest day give them a double hit. I don't do a lot of sets for bis/tris though.

I do DC training and the body part split is a little different than normal. Monday(A1) I do Pull ups and Deadlifts, Friday(A2) I do Chin ups and Corner T bar rows, the following Wednesday(A3) I do behind the neck pull downs and BB rows. For the back width exercises (pull ups, chin ups, BN pull downs) I do one Rest-Paused work set to failure after a few warm up sets. For the Back Thickness exercise (DL, Corner row, BB row) I have two straight set work sets after warming up. A heavy set of 5-7 (3-5 for Deadlift) then a higher rep set of 10-12 (8-10 for deadlift). I know this is confusing as hell. If you want to know more about DC just shoot me a PM.
 
SL and Enigma... do you guys do pullups ( hands facing away), chins ( hands facing toward me) or both? I know it is somewhat of a semantic but I do both on back day with pullups being wide grip and chins being narrow grip. I find they target the lat slightly different. I also hang a pyramid up my 5 sets of each with a 45lb plate at the top for 6 or 7 reps. My back day is DL, pullup, chin, bb bent over row, "high" row machine. (( SL - I think we discussed 90 degree and which way hands face. I agree the 90 degree really makes a difference after we "spoke" .)) I also do triceps on back day. They get a workout on chest day so doing tris on back day and bis on chest day give them a double hit. I don't do a lot of sets for bis/tris though.

the past few months i had a bit of inflammation in my elbow. and palms facing seems to be easier on the elbow. the range of motion is quite a bit longer with palms in. biceps are totally involved too. but before i was hurt i did palms out exclusively. and i wouldnt do both on the same day. oh and i always use shoulder width grip.

i dont do as much volume in one day as you, i organize my pulls into two days. thats way too much work if you are at high percentages of your maxes for all those pulls. heres what you could do:

pull day 1 dl,weighted chins, acc.
pull day 2 pendlay rows, bw chins facing, acc.
 
i like tbar wide, and close and there is a machine that u put free weight on and it is a higher row, hits my back nice..
 
the past few months i had a bit of inflammation in my elbow. and palms facing seems to be easier on the elbow. the range of motion is quite a bit longer with palms in. biceps are totally involved too. but before i was hurt i did palms out exclusively. and i wouldnt do both on the same day. oh and i always use shoulder width grip.

i dont do as much volume in one day as you, i organize my pulls into two days. thats way too much work if you are at high percentages of your maxes for all those pulls. heres what you could do:

pull day 1 dl,weighted chins, acc.
pull day 2 pendlay rows, bw chins facing, acc.

This is a good way to separate your back training. I like to do chin/pullups prior to DLs as I find it helps me "warm Up" to the deadlifts. I do Deads last because I am totally spent after. I am currently training my chins and pull ups without any external weight. I do them rest paused and I am shooting for a set of thirty reps. My last chin day looked like 14+7+5 for a total of 26. This is one set and it is rest paused. 14 reps to failure then 15 deep breaths(about 25 seconds), 7 reps to failure then 15 breaths, then 5 reps to failure. When I hit my target of 30 reps with body weight, which should be next week, I will add weight until I hit thirty again. I know this looks kinda crazy, maybe even stupid, but it works and it's tough. BTW, I am using straps for these, but they are done dead hang.
 
i like tbar wide, and close and there is a machine that u put free weight on and it is a higher row, hits my back nice..

Is it the Hammer strength High Row? That is a good machine. Most people I see using it make it a bicep movement though. I did these my last training cycle.
 
Is it the Hammer strength High Row? That is a good machine. Most people I see using it make it a bicep movement though. I did these my last training cycle.


I believe it is, the row is high and the handles are verticle and the motion is forward and pulling it back.. hits the upper middle of my back good.

heres what i do..

Deadlifts
Pullups wide
chinups close, wrists facing me
tbar wide
tbar close
then that row machine with free weight

There is a lower row machine there also I was thinking of trying that at some point.
 
I believe it is, the row is high and the handles are verticle and the motion is forward and pulling it back.. hits the upper middle of my back good.

heres what i do..

Deadlifts
Pullups wide
chinups close, wrists facing me
tbar wide
tbar close
then that row machine with free weight

There is a lower row machine there also I was thinking of trying that at some point.

That's the one. I like all the hammer strength machines. My old gym had a plate loaded HS dip machine that was almost as good as weighted dips imo. I wish still had access to that thing.
 
This is a good way to separate your back training. I like to do chin/pullups prior to DLs as I find it helps me "warm Up" to the deadlifts. I do Deads last because I am totally spent after. I am currently training my chins and pull ups without any external weight. I do them rest paused and I am shooting for a set of thirty reps. My last chin day looked like 14+7+5 for a total of 26. This is one set and it is rest paused. 14 reps to failure then 15 deep breaths(about 25 seconds), 7 reps to failure then 15 breaths, then 5 reps to failure. When I hit my target of 30 reps with body weight, which should be next week, I will add weight until I hit thirty again. I know this looks kinda crazy, maybe even stupid, but it works and it's tough. BTW, I am using straps for these, but they are done dead hang.

sounds like a lot of work in a short amount of time. i usually do them fast but thats pretty intense. dead hang is how i approach these to. i do something similar for bw chins. i shoot for fifty in as few sets as possible, no straps though.

i like the progression, it seems at some point with a lot of weight its going to get real tough.
 
Don't discount bent barbell rows. Not only will these work the back just as hard, they are great for helping with core and hamstring strength. A simple rule is to never do anything seated that you can do standing and never use a machine when you can use free-weights.
 
Don't discount bent barbell rows. Not only will these work the back just as hard, they are great for helping with core and hamstring strength. A simple rule is to never do anything seated that you can do standing and never use a machine when you can use free-weights.

bent over barbell rows is the only row!! don't forget to de-weight each rep from the floor. great post!
 
bent over barbell rows is the only row!! don't forget to de-weight each rep from the floor. great post!

Thanks. You are right that generally de-weighting is preferred but, there is a strong argument for keeping tension on the hamstrings while doing BB rows.
 
Hey, for the year I have been training, I've focussed mainly on chins/pullups for back, to the point where I can do 5 reps of wide pull ups with 35%+ of my bodyweight attached.

However, I've found they do nothing for my back in terms of size or muscle fatigue. I've switched to rows for the last couple of weeks and noticed I feel it far more in the lats (doing 90 degrees - I have to bend my knees to do this, but I think I've got the form pretty good). At this stage I'm doing bodyweight rows (5 reps).

QUESTION: could I be doing chins/pull ups wrong? I get no sense of muscle burn/fatigue from them, and never got any back with them (I was deadlifting also). I suspect 2 months of rowing for me is going to see more progress than the previous year of chins. Interestingly, while I didn't weight train at 17 (I'm 25 now), I used to do unweighted chins every second day, at one stage could do 40, and in retrospect the same thing happened (no muscle growth or soreness). And also, its not as if the chins gave me bisceps either
 
madcow, mr. pendlay, and biggt were experts. . . .
what ever happened to them?
are they still around usually at this board?
i haven't heard from them in a long time
 
madcow, mr. pendlay, and biggt were experts. . . .
what ever happened to them?
are they still around usually at this board?
i haven't heard from them in a long time

I have not seen any of these guys post lately. They definitely know their shit. I wish they were post with regularity.
 
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