routine - experienced BB's opinions please!!!

[mish12345]

I have just started my second cycle, prop and var. looking to add as much lean mass as possible. i want to make sure my training is in check, just like my diet is.

i'll try to make it as brief as possible, but here's the outline below. i'd really appreciate it if you could offer me some pointers or advice on what you think needs changing.

my chest and legs are both lagging bodyparts.

chest and bi's

bench 12/10/8/6
weighted dips 3x10
incline db press 3x8

db curls 12/10/8/6
ez cable curls 3x10

legs

squats 12/10/8/6 (have started with squats for AGES bear in mind)
leg extension 2x8
leg press 12/10/8
SLDL's 12/10/8/8

donkey raises 3x12
smith machine calf raises 3x12

delts and tri's

military press 3x8
db press 2x8
rear delt rows 2x12

skullcrushers 1x12 3x8
rope pressdowns 2x10
overhead db extension 2x10

back

deadlifts 10/8/6
bb row 12/10/8/6
lat pull down 3x10

smith machine calf raises 4x25

 

[cuts82]

I think you need more volume, like 16 sets per large muscle group and 12 per smaller muscle, as long as your rest is sufficient and your eatin big you shouldnt over train.

 

[DaveTSI]

i dont like the whole 12/10/8/6 rep scheme personally,but atleast you have the big four in that routine. looks like you have everything covered.

 

[jstarr37]

what are your percentages for deads,bench, and squat? That an awful high rep range for deads. id go heavier wieght no more then 5x5.

 

[the_alcatraz]

I think this is the wrong forum bro. If you need advice on weightlifting, there is a special forum for that.

 

[SaiBoT]

I'm not a big fan on regular bench presses for bodybuilding, in fact, i would suggest you the db version instead. Since it's a lagging part, my guess is that your shoulders and tris are doing most of the work.

Inclined bb press 3x8-6(maximum weight all sets)
Pull-over 3x8
Db bench presses 3x8 (without locking on top)
Low inclined db flyes 3x8

Save the dips for the tris days those are killers.

For legs i would say legs extensions for warm-ups only
Squats 5x5
leg press 3x8 ( no locking on top)
Walking lunges 2x failure
Db sldl 3x8

 

[mish12345]

I'm not a big fan on regular bench presses for bodybuilding, in fact, i would suggest you the db version instead. Since it's a lagging part, my guess is that your shoulders and tris are doing most of the work.

Inclined bb press 3x8-6(maximum weight all sets)
Pull-over 3x8
Db bench presses 3x8 (without locking on top)
Low inclined db flyes 3x8

Save the dips for the tris days those are killers.

For legs i would say legs extensions for warm-ups only
Squats 5x5
leg press 3x8 ( no locking on top)
Walking lunges 2x failure
Db sldl 3x8

is that not too much for chest? or would it be ok since i will be on gear?

also, when doing 5x5 do you increase the weight each set?

 

[SaiBoT]

is that not too much for chest? or would it be ok since i will be on gear?

also, when doing 5x5 do you increase the weight each set?

on gear is not too much, its 12 working sets and you said your chest is lagging so give it a try for 6-8 weeks. Please not that i placed the pressing exercises for chest alternatedly so your triceps don't burn out before ur chest those.

5x5 is usually all out to the max on the last 2 sets. If u manage to do 5 reps increase the weight next workout by 10lbs. Increasing the load applies to all exercises, but slowly though.

 

[crxdog]

Do the Omega chest routine that will send you home from the gym a sore and sorry little boy

 

[mish12345]

are sets of 5 reps not more focused around strength though?

 

[SaiBoT]

are sets of 5 reps not more focused around strength though?

Many ppl hit growth plateaus because they fail to work on their strength, 5x5 will work both on hipertrophy and strength.

 

[timtim]

Many ppl hit growth plateaus because they fail to work on their strength, 5x5 will work both on hipertrophy and strength.

i dont agree. the time under tension is way too short for hypertrophy. strength does not equate to muscle size increase. strength has alot more to do with the cns triggering more muscle fiber to move efficiently in a range of motion, not increase size.

 

[Tatyana]

are sets of 5 reps not more focused around strength though?

Yes, unless you have a high percentage of fast twitch muscle, then you will see more hypertrophy.

I think I have just figured out the muscle fibers in my legs, calves, hams, and glutes are all slow twitch, so heavy work is great, they hypertrophy quite easily.

My quads are more slow twitch, and respond to high reps, they have really come out since I have been cycling to work - 14 miles each way.

Charles Poliquin, who is a very reputable strength coach, would say reps 5 and below are more strength related, 6 and above, hypertrophy.

However, if you are not that strong, getting strong to be able to train heavy and hard is a good idea.

The only other issue with training programs is that if you are not training with that balls to the wall intensity a lot of the time, it really doesn't matter what you do.

No offense, but I see far too many lads with great routines in my gym, but they had might as well be flower arranging with those dumbells for the impact it would have on their muscles.

 

[enigma4dub]

i dont agree. the time under tension is way too short for hypertrophy. strength does not equate to muscle size increase. strength has alot more to do with the cns triggering more muscle fiber to move efficiently in a range of motion, not increase size.

no hypertrophy from 5x5!? getting stronger and a caloric surplus is whats important not tut.

 

[enigma4dub]

Also, let's not forget the neural components that have nothing to do with hypertrophy . Hypertrophy over a period is strategically induced microtrauma through progressive loads (i.e. increased workload by raising weight/more work with same weight/combination). And really, you don't get much out of one session so the name of the game is looking at progression over an extended period. Enhanced neural capability leverages your ability to do this and the resulting hypertrophy gains. Better neural = better potential hypertrophy. Don't believe me, think about the much loved "newbie gains" where everything works. What is this phenomenon - muscle is muscle? Well the main driver is rapidly developing neural adaptation and that drives weight on the bar which drives progressive loading which drives hypertrophy. Doh.

So now we know hypertrophy and that neural adaptation is a good thing not some unrelated oddball of nature to be shunned. I'm not saying you need to do a pure powerlifting or peak strength routine and focus on the extreme end of max singles and doubles either - merely that some neural focus is quite helpful and should absolutely be a part of any mid to long-term plan.



Well what's the best way to get a lot of hypertrophy for those looking to add muscle mass? Well, the body is a system and adapts best as a system. This is what makes squats, deads, rows, cleans, presses, and snatches very effective. You are using a large portion of your body's musculature to move a heavy weight (think intensity) through a fundamental range of motion. This is full body lifting stressing a large portion of the body's musculature all at once (microtrauma - especially good to bring up weak links and solidify the body's capability to work well as a single unit - and this is what "functional" is all about anyway). So adding weight to these exercises should net hypertrophy over the entire body. And we all know how hard it is to grow a muscle in isolation and that the body tends to stay within reasonable parameters of balance, just look at the curl boys who otherwise would all have huge arms - the training and workload is there and hitting the target muscle, the body just doesn't adapt like that past a fairly marginal point.

quoted from madcows site.

 

[gettnheavy]

Nice post

 

[Tatyana]

no hypertrophy from 5x5!? getting stronger and a caloric surplus is whats important not tut.

That works for some people, it doesn't work for others.

People are not all the same, and they will respond differently to different types of training.

Some ectomorphs/hardgainers would be seriously wasting their time doing a 5 x 5 for any length of time, they just don't have the muscle fiber types that respond to heavy and abbreviated lifting times.

I also think that TUT is often under-rated, it is one of the stimulus for triggering the mTOR pathway (protein synthesis in muscle).


There are many ways to skin a cat.

I do think that there are two good rules of thumb with training

1. If it isn't broken, don't fix it (so don't keep changing your training program/type if it is working for you)

2. If your training program/routine is not having you lift more weight or have changes in your physique in 4-6 weeks, there is no point in carrying on. If it isn't working now, it isn't going to work in another month or two.

3. Just because it works for you, or it worked for your mate, doesn't mean it will work for everyone

 

[OMEGA]

Tat ur welcome

 

[enigma4dub]

That works for some people, it doesn't work for others.

People are not all the same, and they will respond differently to different types of training.

Some ectomorphs/hardgainers would be seriously wasting their time doing a 5 x 5 for any length of time, they just don't have the muscle fiber types that respond to heavy and abbreviated lifting times.

I also think that TUT is often under-rated, it is one of the stimulus for triggering the mTOR pathway (protein synthesis in muscle).


There are many ways to skin a cat.

I do think that there are two good rules of thumb with training

1. If it isn't broken, don't fix it (so don't keep changing your training program/type if it is working for you)

2. If your training program/routine is not having you lift more weight or have changes in your physique in 4-6 weeks, there is no point in carrying on. If it isn't working now, it isn't going to work in another month or two.

3. Just because it works for you, or it worked for your mate, doesn't mean it will work for everyone

the idea isnt the program its the theory and the rep range is irrelevant. im saying consistently add weight to the bar (progression) plus frequency and a caloric surplus is a cant miss for getting big and strong. for everyone including ectomorphs. and im not sure where your getting abbreviated lifting times from? i train with way more frequency than these body part splits that are so prevalent.

with more frequency comes more tut.

 

[enigma4dub]

Tat ur welcome

whats the matter omega you cant articulate your point clearly, so you have her do it for you? lol

 

[enigma4dub]

TUT is not the stimulus or causality - it just sort of falls out correlated under normal conditions. If it was causality, it would matter in all conditions. Case in point, you need to get a decent amount of mechanical work in for hypertrophy (i.e. the microtrauma thing) or perform a given number of reps with a weight heavy enough (intensity) to do the job. There's an inherent balance in there. Flat out, the more you do, the more microtrauma you get (pretty much, I guess it could get ridiculous at some point but the relationship is fairly linear for all practical purposes). So stimulus for a given training session = workload (sets X reps X weight). It just might not be the best idea for consistent progress to arrange your training with a single massive day and then curl up in a ball for a week paying for it. So thinking about this - how does TUT fit in? Real simple, it flat out takes more time to do more work. This is why TUT is correlated. If TUT was the causality though (not workload), super slow reps would be great all the time, or less reps but same amount of total time. Well once you get extreme like that TUT falls apart because you break it away from workload (basically you aren't doing more mechanical work for microtrauma, you are doing less work more slowly). It's not all that simple but that's the big chunk. Also, if you are interested in getting strong using maximal force results in maximal concentric contraction and bar speed - this is not a negative aspect, it is very positive even though the affect on the TUT calculation is negative (workload is still equal though, bar speed is increased so time is decreased). So workload is king, don't distort TUT. TUT looks good largely because it's correlated with workload and a lot of the big TUT guys are low volume guys with some kind of ideology so the last thing they want to hear is about workload of which volume (total number of reps or sets x reps) is the major component as intensity/weight on the bar has to stay in fairly fixed bounds for resistance training.

quoted from madcow's site

 

[SaiBoT]

i dont agree. the time under tension is way too short for hypertrophy. strength does not equate to muscle size increase. strength has alot more to do with the central nervous system triggering more muscle fiber to move efficiently in a range of motion, not increase size.

You can do only 2 reps and be under tension long enough depending on how slow u do the reps. Anyway everybody knows that 8 reps is optimal for hipertrophy the thing is you'll eventually hit a plateau because you lack the strength to increase the loads. If you see my previous post i recommended the 5x5 for the first exercise and all the following on 8reps. Strength as you say has alot more to do with the central nervous system triggering more muscle fiber to move efficiently in a range of motion. More muscle fiber activation is halfway for a greater hipertrophy if you know how to manipulate the rep range, but time undertension is very relative...

 

[timtim]

enigma4dub:

youre quoting madcow, hes a 5x5 proponent. of course everything he wrote will make correlations to the 5x5 being the best training route.

for newbies and intermediate trainers, you need strength and 5x5 is great. for people who want to develop bbing type muscle structure, weight has little to do with size. check out charles glass and his routines and the weights his trainees use. its all about tut and muscle activation.

ive been training along time, 20 years now. i can db row 180s for 5x5. i dont feel it nearly as much as as an isolated db row with 60 pounds with a 3-2-3 tempo. not even close. db bench, i easily throw 120s for 5x5. when i change the weight and tempo, huge difference.

to each his own. everything has a place and everything is effective to certain extents but 5x5 is not ideal for growth in my opinion and i still cycle 5x5 into my yearly training routine, but those arent growth periods. they are strength periods.

 

[enigma4dub]

enigma4dub:

youre quoting madcow, hes a 5x5 proponent. of course everything he wrote will make correlations to the 5x5 being the best training route.

for newbies and intermediate trainers, you need strength and 5x5 is great. for people who want to develop bbing type muscle structure, weight has little to do with size. check out charles glass and his routines and the weights his trainees use. its all about tut and muscle activation.

ive been training along time, 20 years now. i can db row 180s for 5x5. i dont feel it nearly as much as as an isolated db row with 60 pounds with a 3-2-3 tempo. not even close. db bench, i easily throw 120s for 5x5. when i change the weight and tempo, huge difference.

to each his own. everything has a place and everything is effective to certain extents but 5x5 is not ideal for growth in my opinion and i still cycle 5x5 into my yearly training routine, but those arent growth periods. they are strength periods.

you didnt listen to anything i wrote or quoted. its not about rep range the point isnt five sets of five. its basic calories in vs calories out and its packaged in a way that fosters progression. and i do believe lots of frequency in the compound lifts is better than isolation for building muscle.

the key is work load. and ive never said its is the end all be all of training and neither did he himself. the 5x5 is a guide.

and for your reference of feeling it in your row what does feeling the nuances of your lat have to do with building muscle? are you a believer in pumps and soreness being a good indication of progress?

also do you use aas?

 

[enigma4dub]

here is an example of what i think is an elite athletes log and his training. note is not 5x5 lol. but it is good training. and hes got more muscle than almost anyone thats posted on this site.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...ting/kickbackzz-pec-deckzz-flyezz-506348.html

 

[timtim]

you didnt listen to anything i wrote or quoted. its not about rep range the point isnt five sets of five. its basic calories in vs calories out and its packaged in a way that fosters progression. and i do believe lots of frequency in the compound lifts is better than isolation for building muscle.

the key is work load. and ive never said its is the end all be all of training.

relax alittle, i did read your info, or i should say madcows info.

i thought this was a discussion on effective bbing training. 5x5 is not ideal for bb style training. thats pretty clear.

also, calories in versus calories out has been debunked for years. with that mentality, i could eat candy and pizza all day but as long as my expenditures are within limits, id grow or lose weight - depending upon what i want at the time.

 

[enigma4dub]

relax alittle, i did read your info, or i should say madcows info.

i thought this was a discussion on effective bbing training. 5x5 is not ideal for bb style training. thats pretty clear.

also, calories in versus calories out has been debunked for years. with that mentality, i could eat candy and pizza all day but as long as my expenditures are within limits, id grow or lose weight - depending upon what i want at the time.

how can one gain weight when he expends more than he consumes. are you disagreeing with thermodynamics?

did you check out the link to the journal?

 

[timtim]

how can one gain weight when he expends more than he consumes. are you disagreeing with thermodynamics?

did you check out the link to the journal?

all calories are not equal, thats where im coming from so calories in versus calories out isnt truely effective.

the journal is a good one. i think the author has different goals than a bber and his physique looks like that (from his avatar).

i think your goals dictate your training. im more for the illusion of bbing, i dont like the big but blocky look. so 5x5 might be perfect for someones goals and tut might match others. like i said earlier, my training is consistently changing from phase to phase so i find a time for all methods to be effective.

 

[enigma4dub]

all calories are not equal, thats where im coming from so calories in versus calories out isnt truely effective.

the journal is a good one. i think the author has different goals than a bber and his physique looks like that (from his avatar).

i think your goals dictate your training. im more for the illusion of bbing, i dont like the big but blocky look. so 5x5 might be perfect for someones goals and tut might match others. like i said earlier, my training is consistently changing from phase to phase so i find a time for all methods to be effective.

the idea is that that physique is ready to address any weakness in symmetry, if that was the goal.

muscle bulging from every direction isnt what a bb wants? funny thats what i thought the bb scene was about.

now you said this type of training doesnt result in hypertrophy. and i provided you an example of a monster that trains with the same theories i believe in. and its no accident that hes as strong as an ox.

and im pretty sure most of the bb's here would love biggt's avi to be there own.

 

[SaiBoT]

Strength training does have place on bodybuilding routine! Unless you realize that you will never reach your full POTENTIAL! As long as you periodize your training, by including hypertrophy routines and strength routines you will be on the right track for maximum achievements. Oh and calorie isn't just a calorie...

 

[enigma4dub]

Strength training does have place on bodybuilding routine! Unless you realize that you will never reach your full POTENTIAL! As long as you periodize your training, by including hypertrophy routines and strength routines you will be on the right track for maximum achievements. Oh and calorie isn't just a calorie...

im not sure why he went on, all calories are not the same rant. i never said a doughnut was the same as a steak. lol. if anyone knew how to search i made the same argument with anthrax invasion 2 years ago he said a coloric surplus of donuts was all good lol. look to grow you have to eat more than you burn. and yeah 7000 calories of perfect macros would be ideal. thats a lot of tuna oatmeal, and chicken breasts lol

 

[timtim]

im not sure why he went on, all calories are not the same rant. i never said a doughnut was the same as a steak. lol. if anyone knew how to search i made the same argument with anthrax invasion 2 years ago he said a coloric surplus of donuts was all good lol. look to grow you have to eat more than you burn. and yeah 7000 calories of perfect macros would be ideal. thats a lot of tuna oatmeal, and chicken breasts lol

you said calories in versus calories out. that isnt true on face value. i can only respond to what you write and what you wrote wasnt correct.

the log you showed me was a good one. the guy is big but doesnt look like a bber. i dont like size for the sake of size. it doesnt look good to me but that guy would be huge with or without training. hes gentically a big guy. personally, i would take a shredded down build any day over a big for bigs sake build. he doesnt have a bbers physique at all. hes a monster who likes to lift big weights. there is a difference. again, if that is your goal go for it. it doesnt create a bbers physique though.

 

[enigma4dub]

you said calories in versus calories out. that isnt true on face value. i can only respond to what you write and what you wrote wasnt correct.

look it wasnt to get into a detailed discussion on nutrition. thermodynamics is the underlying truth in weight gain. and without eating more than you burn you cant put on lean muscle mass or fat. i didnt think i needed to specify where the calories came from.

 

[timtim]

look it wasnt to get into a detailed discussion on nutrition. thermodynamics is the underlying truth in weight gain. and without eating more than you burn you cant put on lean muscle mass or fat. i didnt think i needed to specify where the calories came from.

gotcha.

 

[enigma4dub]

the log you showed me was a good one. the guy is big but doesnt look like a bber. i dont like size for the sake of size. it doesnt look good to me but that guy would be huge with or without training. hes gentically a big guy. personally, i would take a shredded down build any day over a big for bigs sake build. he doesnt have a bbers physique at all. hes a monster who likes to lift big weights. there is a difference. again, if that is your goal go for it. it doesnt create a bbers physique though.

you should see him @ 225. thats like the comparison of an off season build hes like 260 in that avi

ronnie and all those guys are monsters. and whether you are striving for that or not. thats what the top guys look like. freaks.

do you think you can tell how i train based on my current physique? heres some pics i put in the picture forum. its updated scroll through the whole thread.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/p...ry/couple-pics-feeling-skinny-fat-603915.html

 

[timtim]

you should see him @ 225. thats like the comparison of an off season build hes like 260 in that avi

ronnie and all those guys are monsters. and whether you are striving for that or not. thats what the top guys look like. freaks.

do you think you can tell how i train based on my current physique? heres some pics i put in the picture forum. its updated scroll through the whole thread.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/p...ry/couple-pics-feeling-skinny-fat-603915.html

you look real good. i think you would be able to bring out some areas with different training. you look solid. good work.

heres an honest critique:

shoulders need to be up in the front head more and out on the lateral and rear
chest looks good, upper pecs need to come in more
arms are good. seperation in the brachialis and tricep would work
back needs a few tweaks: wider and thicker but you have good detail, traps need to come in more

these are areas i definately could see you easily bringing up by using different training methods. i dont see 5x5 bringing up the lateral and rear delts. upper pecs would be mind muscle connection to target the muscle contraction. this is what i am talking about with tut and hypertrophy. you would definately benefit.

real solid work. are you natural?

 

[enigma4dub]

you look real good. i think you would be able to bring out some areas with different training. you look solid. good work.

heres an honest critique:

shoulders need to be up in the front head more and out on the lateral and rear
chest looks good, upper pecs need to come in more
arms are good. seperation in the brachialis and tricep would work
back needs a few tweaks: wider and thicker but you have good detail, traps need to come in more

these are areas i definately could see you easily bringing up by using different training methods. i dont see 5x5 bringing up the lateral and rear delts. upper pecs would be mind muscle connection to target the muscle contraction. this is what i am talking about with tut and hypertrophy. you would definately benefit.

real solid work. are you natural?

thank you for your critique. yes ive always been natural. i think all of the areas you mentioned will be more prominent once im back training heavy again
i was hurt for a while and ive been in a huge caloric deficit. leaning out. im gonna post my journal soon and some after pics.

 

[timtim]

thank you for your critique. yes ive always been natural. i think all of the areas you mentioned will be more prominent once im back training heavy again
i was hurt for a while and ive been in a huge caloric deficit. leaning out. im gonna post my journal soon and some after pics.

great job. keep up the good work.

do you focus on the the omega 3 and 6 while in a deficit? it makes a big difference in fat mobilization. i use the fish oils for 3 and coconut or safflower oil for the 6. i get a 1 to 3, 1 to 4 ratio, add in alittle olive oil for the omega 9, and am able to stay pumped and hard on a carb cycle diet which has my carbs as low as 50 a day 4 days a week.

 

[SaiBoT]

im not sure why he went on, all calories are not the same rant. i never said a doughnut was the same as a steak. lol. if anyone knew how to search i made the same argument with anthrax invasion 2 years ago he said a coloric surplus of donuts was all good lol. look to grow you have to eat more than you burn. and yeah 7000 calories of perfect macros would be ideal. thats a lot of tuna oatmeal, and chicken breasts lol

Lol! By the way you look good on the pics. I think if you improved a little on you back width it wouldn't harm you. You know a good lat spread would give the X look. Keep up!

 

[OneBreath]

My quads are more slow twitch, and respond to high reps, they have really come out since I have been cycling to work - 14 miles each way.

Damn, you're a badass. And you're saying f-off to the oil companies. Stick it to the man!