Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
Research Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsResearch Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic

Pls advice me on my 4th cycle.

Everyone says to build a proper base but what does a proper base mean ? What defines a proper base and how accurate is a base proper before a user is good enough to use aas ?

When you're no longer able to put on muscle mass through diet, training, and supplementation ONLY, then you've achieved a "proper base".
At your size, you should be able to put on plenty of muscle mass, without the use of AAS still.

However, you sound hell bent on doing what you're doing already, rushing to compete, and ignoring all the advice that seasoned vets have given you. If I can only add 1 thing to this conversation, let it be this:
Bodybuilding and AAS use is a marathon, NOT a sprint! You should be striving for slow, steady, and keepable gains. You should NOT be adding 30lbs of muscle mass, and losing 20+ pounds of it after an improper PCT, or due to an inadequate diet.
 
yes i got all the stuff on hand including tren ace. but it just to further lower the bf and change my physique. im gonna start test/tren/masteron and HGH with igf-1 next year to prepare for the comps. =)

thanks for your advice noe pat. I will start my tren ace at a low dosage first.

Not only do you need to listen to everyone who posted above me but IGF-1 is a compete waste, do more research. This is just one journal article there are others that indicate exogenous IGF-1 plays no role in exercise induced muscle hypertrophy.

jp.physoc.org/content/589/11/2667.full
 
Alright thanks for all your advices. I will heed them and rethink what is right to do now. Glad I joined this forum ! Thanks again guys !
 
Mrglorious - here is some quick and dirty reading on IGF-1 - credit goes to VX1 over at DatBTrue forum. Bottom line don't waste your money on IGF-1

IGF1 and Muscle Growth
IGF1 is thought to induce muscle hypertrophy, by distinct mechanisms. The IGF1 receptor is a tyrosine-kinase receptor which induces cellular signal transduction chains by adding phosphate groups or “phosphorylating” specific proteins within the cell. Activation of the PI3K/AKT kinases cause phosphorylation of the FOXO transcription factors, which prevents them from entering the nucleus and promoting the expression of atrophic factors, like MuRF1. The AKT pathway (often called “PKB” instead of “AKT”) also inhibits the secretion of myostatin, thereby increasing both muscle cell differentiation, and protein synthesis.(ref) Myostatin inhibition results in a positive feedback cycle, since myostatin also inhibits the AKT pathway.(ref, ref) IGF1 also activates the mTOR pathway, which is well-known to play a central role in muscle growth. Apparently, PI3K activates mTOR by moving tuberous sclerosis complexes (mTOR inhibitors) from the membrane to the cytosol.(ref) (Independent of growth factors, amino acid availability, especially leucine, regulates mTOR activity, ref.) For a more detailed discussion of the AKT pathway, see: Akt: a nexus of growth factor and cytokine signaling in determining muscle mass
For an overview of transcriptional regulation of muscle growth/atrophy pathways,see: Anabolic and catabolic pathways regulating skeletal muscle mass See, also: Regulation of Muscle Growth
Until recently the exact roles of these pathways and their relationships to IGF1, the effects of resistance exercise (mechanical load/stretch), and developmental stage have remained mysterious. However, current research involving transgenic models is quickly unraveling these mysteries.

Mechanical Stimuli Activate mTOR Independent of IGF1.
It was observed that mechanical stimulation induced local expression of IGF1 and other growth factors.(ref) These were accompanied by an increase in kinase phosphorylation signaling, and muscle growth. It was logical to conclude that IGF1 activated the pathways responsible for muscle growth. Subsequent research has cast serious doubts on this conventional theory. In 2004, it was shown that mechanical stimulation activate mTOR growth pathways, completely independent of IGF1 and the PI3K/AKT pathway. Pharmacologically inhibiting PI3K did not alter activation of mTOR. These results were confirmed with AKT-knockout mice (which lack the AKT gene).
Mechanical stimuli regulate rapamycin-sensitive signalling by a phosphoinositide 3-kinase-, protein kinase B- and growth factor-independent mechanism.
“These surprising results indicate that mechanical stimuli are different from insulin-like growth factors in that mTOR-dependent signalling events are regulated via a PI3K/Akt1-independent mechanism. Furthermore, these results indicate that if mechanical stimuli regulate protein synthesis by the release of locally acting factors, then these factors must activate mTOR through a PI3K/ Akt1-independent mechanism. However, in both the co-incubation and conditioned-media experiments, the release of locally acting factors was not sufficient for the activation of mTOR-dependent signalling events, thus suggesting that mechanotransduction (e.g. mechanoreceptor) rather than ligand binding of autocrine/paracrine growth factors as the cause for the induction of the mTOR-dependent signalling events.”
These results were confirmed by a 2009 study, The role of PI3K in the regulation of mTOR following eccentric contractions:
“In summary, the results from this study indicate that resistance exercise contractions, such as ECs (eccentric contractions), activate mTOR through a PI3K–AKT-independent mechanism.”
In 2007, another transgenic study using mice with a negative IGF1 receptor (one that binds IGF1, but doesn't transduce signals) showed that the hypertrophic effects of mechanical load were NOT mediated by IGF1.(ref) “We demonstrate that IGF-I receptor-mediated signalling is not necessary for the induction of skeletal muscle hypertrophy in adult mice following a chronic increase in mechanical loading.”
This study has previously been discussed by Dat: IGF-1 & receptor aren't even needed post-workout

The results of these studies have been further confirmed by a new transgenic study published last year. Researchers conclude, “Acute resistance exercise did not increase either IGF-1 receptor phosphorylation. . . [Furthermore] these data suggest that physiological loading does not lead to the enhanced activation of the PI3K/Akt/mTORC1 axis and that PI3K activation levels play no significant role in adult skeletal muscle growth.”(ref)

mTOR Causes Muscle Hypertrophy, Not IGF1
Additional studies have confirmed that mTOR plays a central role in muscle growth; but they also confirm that this happens independent of the PI3K/AKT pathway. A PI3K-independent Activation of mTOR Signaling Is Sufficient to Induce Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy “In this study, we demonstrate that the overexpression of Rheb induces mTOR signaling through a PI3K/PKB-independent mechanism and that this event is sufficient to induce a robust and cell autonomous hypertrophic response. Furthermore, it was determined that the hypertrophic effects of Rheb occurred through a rapamycin-sensitive mechanism, that mTOR was the rapamycin-sensitive element in skeletal muscle that conferred the hypertrophic response, and that the kinase activity of mTOR was necessary for this event. Combined, these results strongly indicate that a PI3K/PKB-independent activation of mTOR signaling, in skeletal muscle, is sufficient to induce hypertrophy.” The researchers conclude by suggesting that muscle hypertrophy could be induced by the use of mTOR agonists.

What purpose, then, does IGF1 serve?
Obviously it serves many purposes. I would not presume to definitively answer this question. However, it does appear clear from experimental data that the proliferative role of IGF1 is limited to developmental growth and to regenerative repair. IGF1 is necessary for proper development and repair following injury. Young, developing mammals not only need IGF1 for proper development, but overexpression leads to increased growth. The same does not happen in adults overexpressing IGF1. From a transgenic study published in 2010: “In conclusion, these data show that adult non-growing skeletal muscles are refractory to hypertrophy in response to the elevated IGF-1. By contrast, growing muscles respond by activating signalling downstream from the IGF-1 receptor (demonstrated by phosphorylation of Akt, p70S6K) to increase protein accretion by the myofibres. Thus, the IGF-1-mediated hypertrophy evident in adult transgenic muscles results from enhanced increase in muscle mass mainly during the postnatal growth phase.” (ref)

Am I wasting my time and money on IGF1?
Yes. Anecdotes are not scientific evidence, no matter how loudly they are proclaimed. The previously accepted theory on the role of IGF1 in muscle hypertrophy has been reversed. Many are apparently slow to get the message. This should not come as a surprise to readers of this forum. I merely wanted to give a concise review of some of the recent, relevant literature. All currently available scientific evidence based on in vivo studies indicates that IGF1 plays no role in normal, exercise-induced muscle hypertrophy.
 
Mrglorious - here is some quick and dirty reading on IGF-1 - credit goes to VX1 over at DatBTrue forum. Bottom line don't waste your money on IGF-1

IGF1 and Muscle Growth
IGF1 is thought to induce muscle hypertrophy, by distinct mechanisms. The IGF1 receptor is a tyrosine-kinase receptor which induces cellular signal transduction chains by adding phosphate groups or “phosphorylating” specific proteins within the cell. Activation of the PI3K/AKT kinases cause phosphorylation of the FOXO transcription factors, which prevents them from entering the nucleus and promoting the expression of atrophic factors, like MuRF1. The AKT pathway (often called “PKB” instead of “AKT”) also inhibits the secretion of myostatin, thereby increasing both muscle cell differentiation, and protein synthesis.(ref) Myostatin inhibition results in a positive feedback cycle, since myostatin also inhibits the AKT pathway.(ref, ref) IGF1 also activates the mTOR pathway, which is well-known to play a central role in muscle growth. Apparently, PI3K activates mTOR by moving tuberous sclerosis complexes (mTOR inhibitors) from the membrane to the cytosol.(ref) (Independent of growth factors, amino acid availability, especially leucine, regulates mTOR activity, ref.) For a more detailed discussion of the AKT pathway, see: Akt: a nexus of growth factor and cytokine signaling in determining muscle mass
For an overview of transcriptional regulation of muscle growth/atrophy pathways,see: Anabolic and catabolic pathways regulating skeletal muscle mass See, also: Regulation of Muscle Growth
Until recently the exact roles of these pathways and their relationships to IGF1, the effects of resistance exercise (mechanical load/stretch), and developmental stage have remained mysterious. However, current research involving transgenic models is quickly unraveling these mysteries.

Mechanical Stimuli Activate mTOR Independent of IGF1.
It was observed that mechanical stimulation induced local expression of IGF1 and other growth factors.(ref) These were accompanied by an increase in kinase phosphorylation signaling, and muscle growth. It was logical to conclude that IGF1 activated the pathways responsible for muscle growth. Subsequent research has cast serious doubts on this conventional theory. In 2004, it was shown that mechanical stimulation activate mTOR growth pathways, completely independent of IGF1 and the PI3K/AKT pathway. Pharmacologically inhibiting PI3K did not alter activation of mTOR. These results were confirmed with AKT-knockout mice (which lack the AKT gene).
Mechanical stimuli regulate rapamycin-sensitive signalling by a phosphoinositide 3-kinase-, protein kinase B- and growth factor-independent mechanism.
“These surprising results indicate that mechanical stimuli are different from insulin-like growth factors in that mTOR-dependent signalling events are regulated via a PI3K/Akt1-independent mechanism. Furthermore, these results indicate that if mechanical stimuli regulate protein synthesis by the release of locally acting factors, then these factors must activate mTOR through a PI3K/ Akt1-independent mechanism. However, in both the co-incubation and conditioned-media experiments, the release of locally acting factors was not sufficient for the activation of mTOR-dependent signalling events, thus suggesting that mechanotransduction (e.g. mechanoreceptor) rather than ligand binding of autocrine/paracrine growth factors as the cause for the induction of the mTOR-dependent signalling events.”
These results were confirmed by a 2009 study, The role of PI3K in the regulation of mTOR following eccentric contractions:
“In summary, the results from this study indicate that resistance exercise contractions, such as ECs (eccentric contractions), activate mTOR through a PI3K–AKT-independent mechanism.”
In 2007, another transgenic study using mice with a negative IGF1 receptor (one that binds IGF1, but doesn't transduce signals) showed that the hypertrophic effects of mechanical load were NOT mediated by IGF1.(ref) “We demonstrate that IGF-I receptor-mediated signalling is not necessary for the induction of skeletal muscle hypertrophy in adult mice following a chronic increase in mechanical loading.”
This study has previously been discussed by Dat: IGF-1 & receptor aren't even needed post-workout

The results of these studies have been further confirmed by a new transgenic study published last year. Researchers conclude, “Acute resistance exercise did not increase either IGF-1 receptor phosphorylation. . . [Furthermore] these data suggest that physiological loading does not lead to the enhanced activation of the PI3K/Akt/mTORC1 axis and that PI3K activation levels play no significant role in adult skeletal muscle growth.”(ref)

mTOR Causes Muscle Hypertrophy, Not IGF1
Additional studies have confirmed that mTOR plays a central role in muscle growth; but they also confirm that this happens independent of the PI3K/AKT pathway. A PI3K-independent Activation of mTOR Signaling Is Sufficient to Induce Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy “In this study, we demonstrate that the overexpression of Rheb induces mTOR signaling through a PI3K/PKB-independent mechanism and that this event is sufficient to induce a robust and cell autonomous hypertrophic response. Furthermore, it was determined that the hypertrophic effects of Rheb occurred through a rapamycin-sensitive mechanism, that mTOR was the rapamycin-sensitive element in skeletal muscle that conferred the hypertrophic response, and that the kinase activity of mTOR was necessary for this event. Combined, these results strongly indicate that a PI3K/PKB-independent activation of mTOR signaling, in skeletal muscle, is sufficient to induce hypertrophy.” The researchers conclude by suggesting that muscle hypertrophy could be induced by the use of mTOR agonists.

What purpose, then, does IGF1 serve?
Obviously it serves many purposes. I would not presume to definitively answer this question. However, it does appear clear from experimental data that the proliferative role of IGF1 is limited to developmental growth and to regenerative repair. IGF1 is necessary for proper development and repair following injury. Young, developing mammals not only need IGF1 for proper development, but overexpression leads to increased growth. The same does not happen in adults overexpressing IGF1. From a transgenic study published in 2010: “In conclusion, these data show that adult non-growing skeletal muscles are refractory to hypertrophy in response to the elevated IGF-1. By contrast, growing muscles respond by activating signalling downstream from the IGF-1 receptor (demonstrated by phosphorylation of Akt, p70S6K) to increase protein accretion by the myofibres. Thus, the IGF-1-mediated hypertrophy evident in adult transgenic muscles results from enhanced increase in muscle mass mainly during the postnatal growth phase.” (ref)

Am I wasting my time and money on IGF1?
Yes. Anecdotes are not scientific evidence, no matter how loudly they are proclaimed. The previously accepted theory on the role of IGF1 in muscle hypertrophy has been reversed. Many are apparently slow to get the message. This should not come as a surprise to readers of this forum. I merely wanted to give a concise review of some of the recent, relevant literature. All currently available scientific evidence based on in vivo studies indicates that IGF1 plays no role in normal, exercise-induced muscle hypertrophy.

This is a great read... Thanks for posting this... I hope more take the time to really read it...
 
This is a great read... Thanks for posting this... I hope more take the time to really read it...

Thanks - I learned so much from Dats forum, those guys over there are amazing with the scholarly journals the go through and reference to post their material. One thing I need to do is go back through this one and post the links to the references, it didn't carry over when I copied iron my iPhone.
 
Top Bottom