Please Fucking Help!~ Eating Large Amount Of Fat And Can Get In Keto!!

[KWKSLVR]

LoL, sorry if i seem overbearing. Don't get me wrong MS, i agree with you. I don't agree with the majority of people here just simply because most people just don't seem to back up their statements as well as you.

Basically what i'm simply trying to get at is that there has to be something in common between the 2 of them since beverages containing Aspartame do, in fact, prevent me from progress. I agree that the majority of people wouldn't experience the same effect as me, but in my case there has to be something unique i guess, i don't know.

What i do know is that because Aspartame personally effects me, it might do the same for this guy, so whats the harm in finding out? We can debate it ALL day, but we'll know for sure if he cuts Aspartame out for a few days.

 

[Triple J]

"Relatively higher insulin levels would favor the body going into a sugar burning state vs. fat burning."
This is also true.
"Thus higher insulin will lead to reduced ketosis and lower blood sugar."
This does not make sense. You must reduce blood sugar to establish ketosis (unless you're aiming for ketoacidosis which is NOT a good thing). Insulin is the front line hormone for reducing blood sugar. Insulin resistant people need MORE insulin to get the same reduction in blood glucose as people with normal sensitivity.

Let me restate and see if this makes more sense: you will not achieve ketosis while insulin levels are high, because ketosis requires a hormonal state where insulin is low. This metabolic switch is hormone regulated: sugar burning is insulin regulated while fat burning, I think the hormone is glucagen. When insulin is high, glucagen is low, and vice-versa. Actually, the body is always burning glucose the ketones while in ketosis just result from the conversion of fatty acids to glucose.

Sure you can use insulin to readily achieve low blood sugar, but ketosis will not occur until insulin levels have fallen. So a better way to achieve ketosis is to get insulin levels low (by cutting insulin stimulating dietary elements) and deplete ready sources of carb-like fuel in the body, glycogen. That means exercise, because exercise will deplete glycogen stores.

Diet-wise, I believe 100% fat diets have been shown to induce ketosis the most quickly. Protein in excessive amounts, can stimulate insulin, too. Note I believe a person in ketosis does not show low blood sugar in testing, since glucose levels are being maintained via ketosis. So it is the reduction in insulin that is the primary governor of inducing glucagen and ketosis, not low blood sugar per se.

I believe the reasons bodybuilders use insulin is generally not to achieve low blood sugar. It is a highly anabolic hormone so they manipulate it for those reasons. I think low blood sugar side effects are one of the primary risks of using insulin.

In summary cut the diet soda, consider reducing the amount of protein in your meals, and increasing the fat.

 

[KWKSLVR]

Actually, using insulin raises blood sugar. What happens is that the cell walls will not allow insulin in, so by injecting insulin you are essientially forcing higher amout of insulin into the blood stream in hopes that sufficent amounts will enter the cells of your body.

I know, its confusing. My dad is diabetic and in the medical field and it took about 4 trys for me to finally think that i've got the concept down The term itself means "low blood sugar" or something to that effect, but its a low amount that the cells of the body will allow in, not the amount produced. Diabetics already produce more insulin than the average joe on top of what they inject.

Thanksgiving was interesting. After lunch we took his blood sugar, and then after dinner again. It started going up after lunch and did not plain off until the next day and then it took a good bit longer to come down. Thank God he's not dependent on a needle anymore though.

 

[MS]

"In summary cut the diet soda, consider reducing the amount of protein in your meals, and increasing the fat."

At last something we can agree on!

Bodybuilder's that use insulin for a CKD diet do not use it for anabolic puposes. They simply use it like a diabetic would use it...to lower blood glucose levels so that they can establish ketosis more rapidly and stay in the fat burning phase of the diet longer.

Aside from that, I agree that if they continued to inject insulin beyond the point required to reach fasting blood sugar levels that they would inhibit ketosis. This is not in dispute. This is a bad state to be in, not only because they risk coma from lack of brain fuel, but because their body will have to create glucose from mainly proteins. Some of these protein will be dietary, but some will be from skeletal muscle.

Maybe I'm pickin on KWKSLVR, I dunno. But to say that DiPasquale is an idiot because he well understood that citric acid from diet soda can prevent a small minority of sensitive people from reaching ketosis, and he also well understood that aspartame doesn't do this (crystal light has no citric acid in it), was like waving a red flag in front of a bull! To further go on and continue to assert that insulin will RAISE blood sugar (which, to put it bluntly, is truly idiotic), and to suggest that he couldn't lose WEIGHT because of this.....KWKSLVR-if aspartame somehow magically raised you insulin, keeping you out of ketosis, but you were otherwise on a below maintenance calorie diet, you would have lost even MORE weight than if you had been in ketosis. Just because you're not in ketosis this does not mean that your body isn't burning calories. It is. It would have to burn those cals from protein and if you were eating below maintenance then you would have lost muscle. You only have to burn around 1000 calories worth of muscle to lose a pound of weight, whereas you have to burn 3500 calories of fat to lose that same pound. From beginning to end, KWKSLVR's story doesn't make sense. So I say drop the diet soda, but don't worry about the crystal light, and follow MR BMJ's advice if you can't get into ketosis.

KWKSLVR, I suggest you try one more time to grasp the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes (not all diabetics produce excess insulin), and also try to understand the difference between high blood sugar and normal glucose uptake from the blood into the cell. Your father's blood sugar rose after thanksgiving because of the carbs he ate, NOT because of the insulin his body produced. He is insulin resistant, so the sugars stay in his blood longer than they should. The insulin was TRYING to lower his blood sugar (not raise it), but his cells were no longer listening to the insulin.

 

[KWKSLVR]

Thats my point MS, his blood sugar went up from all of the stuffing, canned yams, etc. Dude, i may be bad at wording but i've lived in a diabetic family my whole life, i know how it works.

"When type 2 diabetes is diagnosed, the pancreas is usually producing enough insulin, but, for unknown reasons, the body cannot use the insulin effectively - insulin resistance. After several years, insulin production decreases. When we eat, the pancreas is supposed to automatically produce the right amount of insulin to move glucose from blood into our cells. In people with diabetes, however, the pancreas either produces little or no insulin, or the cells do not respond appropriately to the insulin that is produced. Glucose builds up in the blood, overflows into the urine, and passes out of the body. Thus, the body loses its main source of fuel even though the blood contains large amounts of glucose."

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Back to Aspartame, even Atkins himself doesn't say that it effects blood sugar but to avoid it because of the FACT that it has some people report adverse effects. FACT FACT FACT No offense, but why is that a hard concept to grasp? Your basically calling me a liar which i do not appriciate.

When i started Atkins i was on a 3000-4000 calorie a day diet for the first 2 weeks in which i lost 20lbs. After the first 2 weeks i started getting brave and trying a few different types of foods, Crystal Light being one of them. The DAY, no, 2 hours after i had my first one i was feeling slightly light headed but thought nothing of it. i drank 2 or 3 a day for about a week and my weight loss halted. So i did some research, it turned out that Aspartame-filled Crystal Light was not recommended to have on Induction, and it was the ONLY change to my diet that was inappropriate so i cut it out completely and by the next week i was dropping again.

Screw ketosis, hell, i haven't used Ketostix in 4 months. We all know that they mean very little for a lot of us.

Now i'm on about 2000 calorie a day diet (simply because that happens to be all i eat to fill me up) and i'm set into losing about 2 lbs a week. I dropped close to 40lbs my first 5 weeks, piece of cake, easiest thing i've ever done. Now i'm in a groove that works very well for me. I've slowly been adding on different beverages like Fruit o2 and the bottled Crystal Light which is made with Splenda and it hasn't hindered me, although i try to keep those beverages to a minimum LoL.

I fully admit that i don't know what the hell Aspartame did to me. What i do know is heres the drill:
Week 1: Dropped 10lbs (water weight)
Week 2: Dropped 10lbs (water weight and a little fat)
Week 3: Added Aspartame lost nothing
Week 4: Cut Aspartame and lost 10lbs
Week 5: Dropped 5lbs
Week 6: Dropped 5lbs

And from there i've slowly plained it back to what i think is a safe rate of weight loss. Now, i don't care about scientific study's an explinations. What i do know for a fact is that the substance not only hindered my weight loss, but it left me weak and on the verge of passing out...........but its completely safe. Ok, i believe you because of "scientific evidence". At least try to see it from my point of view.

I guess i must be lying about losing more weight above maintenance than i do below maintenance as well? Anyway, it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks about my methods. The fact is that it works for me and this guy may very well be going through the same situations that i did so my personal solutions to the problem may work for him. You can try to tell me why i am wrong scientifically all day, but that doesn't change the facts.

Aspartame is the only variable that could have effected me because its the ONLY one i changed. Nuff said.

 

[MS]

Well, OK, if we're gonn rely soley on personal opinions and anecdote, then I think Dr Atkin's is the one who should be smacked in the face. Since he has never published the FACT that aspartame affects some people's degree of ketosis in a scientific, peer reviewed journal than as far as I'm concerned he made it up out of thin air. Therefore it is not a fact at all, merely a good piece of propaganda.

It's hard to keep up with you KWKSLVR. Your story changes everytime you make a post. First we were told that aspartame raises insulin AND blood sugar. Then we are told that you went "weeks and weeks out of ketosis (according to the strips which mean nothing)". Now we learn that you went one week without losing weight (rather than weeks and weeks). We also now learn that your first two weeks you lost a lot of water weight and very little fat while porking out on 3-4000cals a day. I'ts pretty obvious to me that after two weeks your body had lost all the water it was gonna lose, but your calorie intake was too high to lose fat. For some superstitious reason you attributed this lack of weight loss to the aspartame rather than the FACT that your were eating too much. You also admit that you tried a few different foods in your 3rd week, so aspartame was not the only change you made.

And yes your wording is worse than terrible. Just one post ago you stated "Actually, using insulin raises blood sugar."

Now we also learn that "even Atkins himself doesn't say that it (aspartame) effects blood sugar".....so now we've come full circle and you've taken almost every concievable conflicting stand on aspartame and insulin/blood glucose except a scientific stand.

Believe what you want. But if you wanna give advice on the internet at least get your facts straight and keep to the same story.

 

[Triple J]

MS, I think we agree on just about everything, however just want to pass along a link to an article on how bodybuilders use insulin, I think this article addresses the primary way they attempt to take advantage of its anabolic properties:

http://musclechemistry.homestead.com/sheet1.html

Possible they may also use it to induce ketosis but you are the first source I have heard claim that.


KWKSLVR, give it up bro your facts are all over the freakin place

 

[MS]

Thanks triplej. I am well aware of the anabolic properties and bodybuilding use of insulin. It is also not uncommon for insulin (preferably Humulin-R) to be used with the last high carb meal of a CKD. This allows the blood sugar to drop much more rapidly and the dieter to establish ketosis in as little as 24 hours rather than the 2-3 days it can take without insulin. Less dangerous/more common glucose disposal agents are used for the same purpose (such as ALA, metformin, vanadium, chromium etc...).

Obviously it would be really stupid to use insulin/glucose disposal agents once your blood glucose is already low, and personally I think it's stupid to use insulin it at all if you're not an IDDM sufferer. Ahhhh the things some people will do to lose fat ASAP with minimum effort!

 

[MR. BMJ]

Yep, increasing insulin use after a weekend carb-up will help LOWER blood glucose and get you into ketosis in just a few hours (for most). Insulin helps shuttle your blood glucose into cells for use, therefore it will in return lower blood glucose levels. Once ketosis has established, insulin use MUST be stopped when ketosis is established or else the lowering of blood glucose levels will be lowered to extremely low levels and induce hypoglycemia and possibley death. Insulin will not need to be used for those who follow a continuous full-on keto diet, but for those who follow a CKD and time is the overlying factor, it is helpful in etsablishing ketosis in record times. This is not for NEWBIES of course, and is not needed for the diet to excel, but it is helpful if one knows how to do it successfully. Its not hard at all, and i have used it many times with success (George had a similar plan on his CKD summary awhile back of one that I similarly used...not sure if it is still there or not).

MS is pretty much dead on here, and i don't have much to really add. I would like to point out that on a keto diet, one is able to run a carb-up phase WITHOUT gaining fat. You just all of a sudden don't get fat because of eating carbs, especially coming off a ketogenic phase where insulin will take time to come back to normal. Once it is normal, then it will obviously become more of a factor, but this takes a few hours to 2-3 days to occur (ala CKD). This seems to also be true for those suffering from type-2 diabtetes as well. Therefore, if someone like KWIKSILVER were to incorporate carbs back into the diet for a day or so, then he would not get fat. If anything, it would help him repair any broken down tissue. And...there is a difference in weight gain from water and weight gain from fat. These 2 differences are often times confused way too often!

The "Actually, using insulin raises blood sugar" is way way way out there and is totally wrong. Not trying to be rude, but it is.

MR. BMJ

 

[MS]

Oops MR BMJ. It seems I directly implied that your are stupid LOL! Well, as you say, it's not for newbies, and you want to be monitoring your blood glucose, not just relying on the strips.

I admit I've thought one of the biggest flaw in Atkin's diet was never allowing an occassional high carb refeed, especially after the induction phase when insulin sensitivity should have improved. But I guess this takes a lot more willpower and discipline for a dieter (because they have to go back to low carb again). The return to the ketogenic phase of a CKD was certainly the hardest part for me!