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Painkillers?

JKurz1

Banned
I want to know all there is to know. FOr an FYI....I have a minimum of three friends hat are highly highly addicted to vicodine. I have used (like I posted a few weeks ago) 1/2 of a tab here and there for severe pain in my delt, but never ever more than 1-2 a week total as I feel it messes up my appetite, brain function, makes me groggy and overall feel prety crappy. The things I want to replay to these guys are: Is it a fact that it messes with digestion? How about weight training effect? I know its got to be horrid on your liver....any response would be great!
 
Idk much about viocadin sorry, but I know aprin can mess up your bodys ability to help repair itself... bump for help
 
ya i want to know also, my friend is addicted to it and takes like 8 a day, or he gets severe headaches and cant function.
 
if you take more than 4 grams worth of vicodin a day - it can start to cause liver problems. best thing for them to do, if they want to quit, is to ween themselfs off slowly ed until they can get down to 1 a day and then quit. if they can't do that, then they have to get help..
 
They lower my appetite and desire to train but when I need them I will take them.My thought on it is if I"m hurting bad enough to take"m then I don"t need to be in the gym.I"ve took"m on/off for about 10yrs and never had a problem but I do know people that just wouldn"t quit taking them.It depends on the person.
 
I've had the back of my skull cut open 8 times in 7 years (5 surgeries were at mayo clinic in Rochchester, Minn) Had tumors in my middle ear cavity that kept returning bilaterly, luckily they weren't cancerous. Lost all off my hearing in my left ear and half in my right. I've been taking pain killers for over 10 years. Vicoden, lortab, percodone, morphine pills. Mostly vicodin though, and mostly unperscribed for the last 3.5 years (last surgery was 4 years ago) Anyway everytime my friends or current girlfriend thinks I have a problem I stop for about a month just to prove them wrong, but always make some excuse up to start on them again.

Like others said I get grumpy and moody without them. When I had the surgeries I was taking 10 - 14 a day 750 mg. I noticed if I take them recreational I average 4 - 5 a day which I think is considerly better ( still stupid but better) I've taken them on a cycle of deca, test, whin and eq and didnt notice any difference. though I've never had my liver checked and to be honest I'm afraid to. I stopped taking them for about 2 weeks now and am hoping to stay off, but as most of you know my demons are some times stronger than I am.
 
I get my blood work done twice a year and have never had any problems show up.I"ve even had it checked not long after a knee surgery when I was taking 6-8 lortab 10"s a day.
 
JKurz1 said:
I want to know all there is to know. FOr an FYI....I have a minimum of three friends hat are highly highly addicted to vicodine. I have used (like I posted a few weeks ago) 1/2 of a tab here and there for severe pain in my delt, but never ever more than 1-2 a week total as I feel it messes up my appetite, brain function, makes me groggy and overall feel prety crappy. The things I want to replay to these guys are: Is it a fact that it messes with digestion? How about weight training effect? I know its got to be horrid on your liver....any response would be great!

Yes hydrocodone causes constipatition in most people at high doses, regular users have the shits when they come off after a while, as far as how it effects weight training i'm sure it varies from person to person but for me I can't feel any pain while working out, thats not a good thing, everybody knows the tylenol in vicodin/norco/lortab/locet etc is the culprit of liver damage, most heads just do cold water extractions to get rid of it...
 
Sorry for leaving that out, I know alot of people that gets the shits while others get constitpated lucky for me I get neither. But for alot of people it really messes with their stomach.

Location: Washing down Lortabs with everclear trying not to drop my doobie. right there with joker! LOL
 
you will find plenty of good bros here that have been addicted to pain killers. i for one. it has ruined many peoples lives(here).
get off asap.
most painkillers have tylenol in them. which of course is toxic at high doses
 
There are two strengths of Vicodin the 5 and 7.5 both are 95% acetaminophen


So besides being addictive, it will short stop your kidneys big time, compliments of acetaminophen.

I have always worked in hospitals, I was Nurse in the army, the sickest people I have ever had to take care, are patients with kidney disease, really a lousy way to die.


Treatment programs are everywhere, like AA


www.meditoxofpalmbeach.com
 
i agree.
lortab, norco, vicodin (all same active ingredient hydrocodone) come in strengths from 2.5 to 10mg of hydrocodone and 325-750mg acetaminophen

percocet, oxy-ir... is oxycodone - various strenths also. mg for mg oxycodone is stronger then hydrocodone

all except oxy-ir have lots of tylenol
 
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jokerswild said:
Yes hydrocodone causes constipatition in most people at high doses, regular users have the shits when they come off after a while, as far as how it effects weight training i'm sure it varies from person to person but for me I can't feel any pain while working out, thats not a good thing, everybody knows the tylenol in vicodin/norco/lortab/locet etc is the culprit of liver damage, most heads just do cold water extractions to get rid of it...


lol..........i can tell you've been around
 
solidspine said:
There are two strengths of Vicodin the 5 and 7.5 both are 95% acetaminophen


So besides being addictive, it will short stop your kidneys big time, compliments of acetaminophen.

I have always worked in hospitals, I was Nurse in the army, the sickest people I have ever had to take care, are patients with kidney disease, really a lousy way to die.


Treatment programs are everywhere, like AA


www.meditoxofpalmbeach.com
there is more than two strengths , there is a 2.5,5,7.5 and 10.
most have 750 milliagram of acetameniphen with them.
 
hotzie said:
there is more than two strengths , there is a 2.5,5,7.5 and 10.
most have 750 milliagram of acetameniphen with them.
thats what i said above, but i would not say that most have 750mg tylenol
 
i myself am addicted to lorcet/lortabs.. the green monsters it started with one eod and now its 3-4 ed just to maintain
 
JKurz1 said:
I want to know all there is to know. FOr an FYI....I have a minimum of three friends hat are highly highly addicted to vicodine. I have used (like I posted a few weeks ago) 1/2 of a tab here and there for severe pain in my delt, but never ever more than 1-2 a week total as I feel it messes up my appetite, brain function, makes me groggy and overall feel prety crappy. The things I want to replay to these guys are: Is it a fact that it messes with digestion? How about weight training effect? I know its got to be horrid on your liver....any response would be great!
DO NOT TAKE THEM!!!!! once you are addicted its over!!!! i have 3 heirniated discs and have to take 6 30mg percosets a day and if i dont i feel like i am going to die!!!! percosets that i take would probably be the equivilent of about 30 vicoden a day!!! vicoden/lortab is hydrocodone percoset is oxycodone its 3x stronger than hydrocodone vicoden is where it starts though i have been on them for 7+ years and it is the worst thing in the world liver tests all the time and if you run out plan on pissin out your ass and puckin till you get somethin. it is like being addicted to heroin but lets not talk about that my fiancee past away from being wasted on heroin then crashed my truck DEAD at 31 !!! stay away is my only advice!!!!!!!!
 
Addictive like any drug is, pills probably more so then other things cause they are so easy to take and docters give them out like candy .. Its harder to stop then u think.. I think painkillers prolong the problem , they hide the function of pain so that ur body doesnt know it needs to be fixed .. In the long run its gonna cause problems..
 
I take 3 norcos ED for back pain. Only thing I dont like about them, I get tired on them.. Only thing that makes my back feel better, and I am hesitant to get back surgery, so I keep on taking them. I used to be prescribed vicoden ES, but told my doctor they were giving me the shits and they were messing my stomach up. Prescribed me the norcos, and those things went away.. That tylenol is the culprit!
 
drrman said:
lol..........i can tell you've been around

yea, remember qualudes, ahh the early eighties, coke, qualudes and the end of disco, all good things must come to and end...
 
SwolK said:
thats what i said above, but i would not say that most have 750mg tylenol
norco 10/325 325 tylenol not as bad on liver i'm like italian muscle gotta take em for back pain
 
motodawg said:
norco 10/325 325 tylenol not as bad on liver i'm like italian muscle gotta take em for back pain
also Perc 10/325

stronger then Norco b/c its oxycodone, not hydro.

Damn, i hate these things. just had my 6 orthopedic operation in the last 5 years. until this surgury(4 weeks ago) i had been clean for almost 2 years. now im trying not to take em more then i have to
 
liquidmuscle said:
i myself am addicted to lorcet/lortabs.. the green monsters it started with one eod and now its 3-4 ed just to maintain


Are you serious? Addicted off 1 lortab every eod? Thats hard to believe, usually you need higher doses than that ED to become addicted, and lortab is about as soft as they come in terms of opates. What are your WD sypmtoms?

I was addicted to dillies (hydromorphone, strongest opiate, more addictive than morphine....didnt know that at the time)........a month of absolute hell coming off of those.
 
Opiates are highly addictive and should only be taken when things like advil/aspirin don't work. I have taken hydrocodone when I had my wisdom teeth pulled.

The biggest prob with those things is that they don't work as well after each use. Advil/aspirin aren't that way. I will take alot of advil when I have headaches but never screw with opiates. Not b/c I'm afraid of some kind of addiction but b/c the side effects are much higher and they simply do not work worth a shit after taking them for a long time.

So simple rule: don't take them for a long period of time and only take them when you have no choice .. like after a surgery or something.
 
well first off oxycodone is not 3x stronger than hydrocodone (both are the main pain relievers in descent prescribed pain pills) . There isn't a great deal of difference at all really. The bad thing with the vics,lory's and percs is all the damn tylenol. thats what really f's your body up.
if you were to GET PRESCRIBED to IR-5's basically 5mg of oxycodone in a capsule and thats all,it would be small enough a dose if taken when needed where you wouldn't be at high risk at all of addiction and there aren't all the shits and headaches when you come down especially if you only take them when you needed them. If tylenol makes you sick then tell your doctor and they will usually prescribe you something with less or no tylenol in it. they do not mass produce hydrocodone without tylenol but there are pharmacuetical made capsules for people that can't have oxycodone and or tylenol so you are more likely to get ir's (5,10 and 30mg oxycodone).
i do not see anything wrong with taking pain meds if taken when needed (usually less than prescribed) and not abused, the only bad thing with lifting is the tiredness, groggy,and basically feel like shit mode they may put some people in.this may make you not WANT to work out but thats up to you i guess. Most people can handle 10mg oxycodone without feeling "weird" feel like shit mode. once your body gets used to taking them in high dosage for a long period, your body will hurt and ache for a while and you may be sick as hell if you don't get some in you but thats only when you are Addicted ( truly phyisical dependant ).
DO NOT GET ADDICTED (period). I have seen alot of ppl lose family and lots and lots of money because of being addicted to pain pills so i want to stress the TAKE AS NEEDED thing. I suggest trying different types of over the counter pain relievers ( advil liquid gels work great for me ) before even consulting a doctor about prescription pain meds.
just my .02
 
I have a fractured lumbar disc and take them from time to time, but they make me feel so good I always want more. I stop after a few days so I don't get hooked. I know I could get addicted very easily.
 
dr is now prescribing oxycodone generic for oxycontin says there is no tylenol in them time released only 2 per day I've taken them there is no real buzz feeling and they are great for the pain. I have 2 disc that are herniated and i have sciatica it's hell.
 
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kyrip said:
well first off oxycodone is not 3x stronger than hydrocodone (both are the main pain relievers in descent prescribed pain pills) . There isn't a great deal of difference at all really. The bad thing with the vics,lory's and percs is all the damn tylenol. thats what really f's your body up.
if you were to GET PRESCRIBED to IR-5's basically 5mg of oxycodone in a capsule and thats all,it would be small enough a dose if taken when needed where you wouldn't be at high risk at all of addiction and there aren't all the shits and headaches when you come down especially if you only take them when you needed them. If tylenol makes you sick then tell your doctor and they will usually prescribe you something with less or no tylenol in it. they do not mass produce hydrocodone without tylenol but there are pharmacuetical made capsules for people that can't have oxycodone and or tylenol so you are more likely to get ir's (5,10 and 30mg oxycodone).
i do not see anything wrong with taking pain meds if taken when needed (usually less than prescribed) and not abused, the only bad thing with lifting is the tiredness, groggy,and basically feel like shit mode they may put some people in.this may make you not WANT to work out but thats up to you i guess. Most people can handle 10mg oxycodone without feeling "weird" feel like shit mode. once your body gets used to taking them in high dosage for a long period, your body will hurt and ache for a while and you may be sick as hell if you don't get some in you but thats only when you are Addicted ( truly phyisical dependant ).
DO NOT GET ADDICTED (period). I have seen alot of ppl lose family and lots and lots of money because of being addicted to pain pills so i want to stress the TAKE AS NEEDED thing. I suggest trying different types of over the counter pain relievers ( advil liquid gels work great for me ) before even consulting a doctor about prescription pain meds.
just my .02
i agree with some of what you said, but there is a lot of crap to sift through. And there IS a big diff between oxycodone and hydrocodone
 
ItalianMuscle27 said:
I take 3 norcos ED for back pain. Only thing I dont like about them, I get tired on them.. Only thing that makes my back feel better, and I am hesitant to get back surgery, so I keep on taking them. I used to be prescribed vicoden ES, but told my doctor they were giving me the shits and they were messing my stomach up. Prescribed me the norcos, and those things went away.. That tylenol is the culprit!


U may have heard this before .. But try a chiropractor.. i had a fuked up bak and neck been seeing him 3 days a week for the last 5 months , never felt better in my life .. He actually fixed me .. i was always hesitant to go the them cause of the stories.. outta EVERYthing i tried its the one thing that worked ..
 
jokerswild said:
yea, remember qualudes, ahh the early eighties, coke, qualudes and the end of disco, all good things must come to and end...
I think i remember at least i thought i remembered but i think i forgot
 
I'm on oxycontin. It's a bitch to get off but I've done it several times then got back on several times. I suffer from chronic pain as well so I know where you are coming from.

Here are my conclusions after a great deal of research: opiates, if used for a legitimate medical purpose and correctly, should cause no physical harm; it's the tylenol in the vicodin that's responsible for the liver damage.

I would ask your doctor to prescribe an opiate without tylenol if you're concerned (and rightly so) about liver damage.

Good luck and if you ever go over your dose make sure you tell your doctor so he can work with you. Addiction is synonomous with lying. It's almost impossible to be an honest addict with a social support network and a doctor. Get what I'm saying?
 
kyrip said:
well first off oxycodone is not 3x stronger than hydrocodone (both are the main pain relievers in descent prescribed pain pills) . There isn't a great deal of difference at all really. The bad thing with the vics,lory's and percs is all the damn tylenol. thats what really f's your body up.
if you were to GET PRESCRIBED to IR-5's basically 5mg of oxycodone in a capsule and thats all,it would be small enough a dose if taken when needed where you wouldn't be at high risk at all of addiction and there aren't all the shits and headaches when you come down especially if you only take them when you needed them. If tylenol makes you sick then tell your doctor and they will usually prescribe you something with less or no tylenol in it. they do not mass produce hydrocodone without tylenol but there are pharmacuetical made capsules for people that can't have oxycodone and or tylenol so you are more likely to get ir's (5,10 and 30mg oxycodone).
i do not see anything wrong with taking pain meds if taken when needed (usually less than prescribed) and not abused, the only bad thing with lifting is the tiredness, groggy,and basically feel like shit mode they may put some people in.this may make you not WANT to work out but thats up to you i guess. Most people can handle 10mg oxycodone without feeling "weird" feel like shit mode. once your body gets used to taking them in high dosage for a long period, your body will hurt and ache for a while and you may be sick as hell if you don't get some in you but thats only when you are Addicted ( truly phyisical dependant ).
DO NOT GET ADDICTED (period). I have seen alot of ppl lose family and lots and lots of money because of being addicted to pain pills so i want to stress the TAKE AS NEEDED thing. I suggest trying different types of over the counter pain relievers ( advil liquid gels work great for me ) before even consulting a doctor about prescription pain meds.
just my .02


Good post....i got you out of the red bro

But you are wrong in the first part, oxy and hydro are different bro......for SURE
 
JKurz1 said:
I want to know all there is to know. FOr an FYI....I have a minimum of three friends hat are highly highly addicted to vicodine. I have used (like I posted a few weeks ago) 1/2 of a tab here and there for severe pain in my delt, but never ever more than 1-2 a week total as I feel it messes up my appetite, brain function, makes me groggy and overall feel prety crappy. The things I want to replay to these guys are: Is it a fact that it messes with digestion? How about weight training effect? I know its got to be horrid on your liver....any response would be great!


This addiction can be very hard to beat. May need to get some help from treatment center.
 
Pretty good info here. I was on hydrocodone for a little over a year and can say the withdrawal is difficult but not horrible if you don't have major chronic pain. For me the drugs managed the pain from a leg injury pretty well, and the occasional grinding of 10-20 pills, a cold water bath, and a couple coffee filters made for a few very nice weekends. I never really had any negative experiences on or off the drug.

One comment about hydrocodone preparations without the APAP: these preparations are schedule II substances, while the APAP blends are schedule III (hydrocodone blends with 15mg or more hydro, as well as all oxycodone preparations, are also schedule II). I'm sure everything's on the up-and-up here, but just in case it isn't, anyone planning to access the drugs should be advised that the law views pure hydrocodone and APAP blends differently.

A couple nitpicky points about some earlier comments. First, while the APAP in Vicodin is responsible for the lion's share of the liver damage these drugs can cause, orally administered hydrocodone is metabolised in the liver and can cause liver damage on its own, especially in the large doses some addicts need. Also, I have to disagree with the earlier comment on the relative opiate strength of hydromorphone. It's a tough addiction and a powerful substance, probably stronger than oxycodone, but it has nothing on fentanyl.
 
zaxxon1982 said:
Pretty good info here. I was on hydrocodone for a little over a year and can say the withdrawal is difficult but not horrible if you don't have major chronic pain. For me the drugs managed the pain from a leg injury pretty well, and the occasional grinding of 10-20 pills, a cold water bath, and a couple coffee filters made for a few very nice weekends. I never really had any negative experiences on or off the drug.

One comment about hydrocodone preparations without the APAP: these preparations are schedule II substances, while the APAP blends are schedule III (hydrocodone blends with 15mg or more hydro, as well as all oxycodone preparations, are also schedule II). I'm sure everything's on the up-and-up here, but just in case it isn't, anyone planning to access the drugs should be advised that the law views pure hydrocodone and APAP blends differently.

A couple nitpicky points about some earlier comments. First, while the APAP in Vicodin is responsible for the lion's share of the liver damage these drugs can cause, orally administered hydrocodone is metabolised in the liver and can cause liver damage on its own, especially in the large doses some addicts need. Also, I have to disagree with the earlier comment on the relative opiate strength of hydromorphone. It's a tough addiction and a powerful substance, probably stronger than oxycodone, but it has nothing on fentanyl.
good post, but fentanly is very short acting...
dolodid(sp?) and demerall rank up there as well and are longer acting then fentanly.

in some places docs and hospitals have actually stopped prescribing demerall b/c of the buzz and halunications people get from it. Unfortionantly i love it
 
SwolK said:
good post, but fentanly is very short acting...
dolodid(sp?) and demerall rank up there as well and are longer acting then fentanly.

in some places docs and hospitals have actually stopped prescribing demerall b/c of the buzz and halunications people get from it. Unfortionantly i love it
Dilaudid is the brand name for hydromorphone referenced above. Like oxycodone, it's a derivative of morphine, but it has better analgesic effects (and for most people, worse euphoric effects) which makes the physical addiction more severe.

Demerol is the brand name for meperidine, a synthetic opioid. I don't have any experience with the substance but have heard reports like yours before.

Fentanyl's a much more potent synthetic that works very differently. It's dosed in micrograms transdermally to chronic pain patients with opiate tolerances or through a needle to recreational users. Homemade batches of this are often sold on the street as a more powerful heroin substitute, and a bunch of junkies in the midwest OD'd on it this spring thinking it was the less powerful heroin.
 
Good shit zaxxon, i havent looked into opiates TOO much (not in med school yet), but i remember reading hydromorph is a FASTER addiction to get than all (it didnt mention fent, i know thats a potent one used...similar to duragesic i think?) others including morph and all the oxys and percs and such. I know i LOVED the euphoric feelings on dillies (way better than any other, except percs cuz they make me hallucinate) and only after about 2-3 weeks of nightly use only (8-12mg per, 12mg had me breathing pretty shallow and near comatose, big mistake) i had a month of hell withdrawl after only 2-3 weeks. Constant shaking, naseaus, crying, it was like a 24hr panic attack without the blacking out...oh my god it was terrible.
 
this wasnt where I wanted this thread to go.......I wanted to know the effects of these painkillers on bodybuilders if not abused.....meaning 1 vicodine a day MAYBE, or just a half....does it mess with digestion? Muscle gain? Etc........effects? 10-15 a day is absurd..
 
From someone who has taken it from 1 - 4 tabs a day while lifting on and off cycle, 1/2 - 1 - 500mg - 750mg tab a day isn't going to harm you at all. As for the digestion question that is unknown, like I said earlier in the post I can take 1 or 8 a day and have no problems while people I know take just one and have all the digestion problems in the world so it all depends how your own body reacts to them and I have reason to believe that it will cause you to have less muscle gain. Hope this helps you out.
 
bigrand said:
Are you serious? Addicted off 1 lortab every eod? Thats hard to believe, usually you need higher doses than that ED to become addicted, and lortab is about as soft as they come in terms of opates. What are your WD sypmtoms?

I was addicted to dillies (hydromorphone, strongest opiate, more addictive than morphine....didnt know that at the time)........a month of absolute hell coming off of those.

i started taking 1 eod just for shits and giggles and now i am taking 4 sometimes 6 every day. i wake up and eat 2 before i even have breakfast cuz if i dont i wont get out of bed,,,there are days that i am out of em and i stay in my bed all day and dont move for shit..
 
The withdrawal is worse than the pain you are killing. Withdrawal causes severe sweating (toxin release), muscle aches, depression (severe).
 
motodawg said:
dr is now prescribing oxycodone generic for oxycontin says there is no tylenol in them time released only 2 per day I've taken them there is no real buzz feeling and they are great for the pain. I have 2 disc that are herniated and i have sciatica it's hell.
oxycodone is not generic for oxycontin!! oxycodone is the medication all the word Contin means is "time released!!" so oxycontin is simply time released oxycodone i take 30 mg oxycodone tabs no aprin but they are not oxycontin, they are not a time released pill my is an instant release medication big difference!!
 
JKurz1 said:
this wasnt where I wanted this thread to go.......I wanted to know the effects of these painkillers on bodybuilders if not abused.....meaning 1 vicodine a day MAYBE, or just a half....does it mess with digestion? Muscle gain? Etc........effects? 10-15 a day is absurd..
Ya we're pretty off topic from your original q. Back on topic, I used 1-2 10/625 Hydrocodone/APAP (generic Vicodin HP) ED for several months rehabbing after a leg injury and had no problems. I continued use comparable amounts longer than I needed to because I just really like opiates, and that didn't get in the way of muscle gains. The only physical problems I've ever heard of anyone having from using Vicodin (in this context) all resulted from taking the drug shortly before lifting. The hydrocodone will definitely cloud your awareness of your body in the gym, and that's a fast track to an injury.

Used entirely as directed, Vicodin can reduce appetite and nauseate the user, which can hurt efforts to bulk. It also causes constipation. So yes it does hurt digestion a little, but not meaningfully if you're willing to forcefeed yourself and live with a possible hemorrhoid or two. The bigger issue is the APAP's effect on the liver. It is a bad idea to combine Vicodin with any oral steroids, prohormones, medications, supplements, or anything else that's going to stress the liver. If you do, you will need to take steps to protect the liver and have frequent blood work or else you're risking real and lasting liver damage.
 
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bigrand said:
Good shit zaxxon, i havent looked into opiates TOO much (not in med school yet), but i remember reading hydromorph is a FASTER addiction to get than all (it didnt mention fent, i know thats a potent one used...similar to duragesic i think?) others including morph and all the oxys and percs and such. I know i LOVED the euphoric feelings on dillies (way better than any other, except percs cuz they make me hallucinate) and only after about 2-3 weeks of nightly use only (8-12mg per, 12mg had me breathing pretty shallow and near comatose, big mistake) i had a month of hell withdrawl after only 2-3 weeks. Constant shaking, naseaus, crying, it was like a 24hr panic attack without the blacking out...oh my god it was terrible.
Duragesic is a brand of fentanyl made by one of the J&J subs (can't remember which).

Your experience is a good story for people to see. Different people experience different opiate withdrawals in different ways (Person A may have a hard time dropping Oxycontin but not Dilaudid while Person B has that situation reversed and Person C can kick either easily). The point is that first-time users should basically assume that the withdrawal will be painful physically and probably more painful emotionally, and just because a person got off one opiate easily doesn't necessarily mean he can kick another (even a less potent one) without suffering a nasty withdrawal. To the OP, this is something worth considering... opiate withdrawal will not kill you but it may test you in ways nobody can prepare you for, even if you use them as directed.
 
What about Nubaine as a pain killer? I have taken this with great results. There are a ton of people that I know that love this stuff, but the only source in town got busted about six months ago.
 
fateful said:
I've had the back of my skull cut open 8 times in 7 years (5 surgeries were at mayo clinic in Rochchester, Minn) Had tumors in my middle ear cavity that kept returning bilaterly, luckily they weren't cancerous. Lost all off my hearing in my left ear and half in my right. I've been taking pain killers for over 10 years. Vicoden, lortab, percodone, morphine pills. Mostly vicodin though, and mostly unperscribed for the last 3.5 years (last surgery was 4 years ago) Anyway everytime my friends or current girlfriend thinks I have a problem I stop for about a month just to prove them wrong, but always make some excuse up to start on them again.

Like others said I get grumpy and moody without them. When I had the surgeries I was taking 10 - 14 a day 750 mg. I noticed if I take them recreational I average 4 - 5 a day which I think is considerly better ( still stupid but better) I've taken them on a cycle of deca, test, whin and eq and didnt notice any difference. though I've never had my liver checked and to be honest I'm afraid to. I stopped taking them for about 2 weeks now and am hoping to stay off, but as most of you know my demons are some times stronger than I am.

Hang in there man. You can do it and life becomes good when you do. I kicked the habit of various addictions myself and painkillers were really hard. It put me in a very, very depressed state of mind and my body actually ached for a couple two to three weeks. but when its over it was over. You know that once you quit you do not have the cravings so quit thinking you can go back without abusing the substance. One turns into five in no time flat. I am far from flaming you I understand I have been there and the last thing I am doing is putting you down I am just a guy that has had substances control my life and hate to see it do the same thing to others. If you need help there is help out there. The twelve steps really work the first few are the most helpful but they do work. You do not have to believe in god that is a huge misconception. I personally do not. But there is help if you want it! You and only you have to want it for it to work though. Not your girlfriend not your mom and dad not your friends just you! Godd luck bro. Never give up keep looking up! And know you deserve a better life free from addiction.
 
From my understanding, Morphine, Diamorphine (heroin), and oxycodone are equivalent on a mg for mg basis. Hyrdocodone is approximately 90% strength, while codeine is only 15%

here's a good website showing a large number of narcotic pharmaceuticals and their strengths and markings
www.pharmer.org
 
CO B-man said:
You do not have to believe in god that is a huge misconception. I personally do not.
All I can say is that if you do not believe in God, you have to be deaf dumb blind stupid. Actually that's an insult to deaf dumb blind and stupid people.
You have to be brainless soulless the walking dead to not believe there's a God.
 
BBkingpin said:
All I can say is that if you do not believe in God, you have to be deaf dumb blind stupid. Actually that's an insult to deaf dumb blind and stupid people.
You have to be brainless soulless the walking dead to not believe there's a God.


Not a good post, you can start some serious shit with a post like that!!!! 800 pages of theology......i dont believe fully...im also not stupid...ive taken evolution classes and know its reality.......it has been proven to have happened.....god on the other hand........proof?
 
bigrand said:
Not a good post, you can start some serious shit with a post like that!!!! 800 pages of theology......i dont believe fully...im also not stupid...ive taken evolution classes and know its reality.......it has been proven to have happened.....god on the other hand........proof?

unfortunately you are soarly mistaken, but I can already see there is no point in a debate over the internet becuase there is probably no way we can convince eachother otherwise. I see you believe evolution is a scientific fact. Here is something you might want to know, or maybe not.
There is an abundance of scientific data proving the existence of a creator, you taking classes on evolution does not prove otherwise. One more thing, all of the so called proofs of evolution have been proven to either be mistaken or hoaxes, yet they still end up being taught to our children in science classes as fact. Bigrand, i'm not being an asshole, but I dislike misleading comments like yours being out in the open for people to easily be mislead, you will probably feel the same way after my post but to each his own.

To the OP, all I can say is becareful with the opiates, that shit is hard to come off of. Also, it probably will not help you with your goals you posted in the other threads.
 
bigrand said:
Not a good post, you can start some serious shit with a post like that!!!! 800 pages of theology......i dont believe fully...im also not stupid...ive taken evolution classes and know its reality.......it has been proven to have happened.....god on the other hand........proof?
The proof is everywhere. That's why you have to be deaf dumb blind and stupid not to see God's presence when it is everywhere. (Again, I think that's not giving the deaf dumb blind and stupid enough credit.) Evolution proves God. The ability of species to evolve in response to a changing environment so as to perpetuate their survival is proof of the infinite wisdom of the Almighty Creator. :rolleyes:
 
JohnnyWest said:
unfortunately you are soarly mistaken, but I can already see there is no point in a debate over the internet becuase there is probably no way we can convince eachother otherwise. I see you believe evolution is a scientific fact. Here is something you might want to know, or maybe not.
There is an abundance of scientific data proving the existence of a creator, you taking classes on evolution does not prove otherwise. One more thing, all of the so called proofs of evolution have been proven to either be mistaken or hoaxes, yet they still end up being taught to our children in science classes as fact. Bigrand, i'm not being an asshole, but I dislike misleading comments like yours being out in the open for people to easily be mislead, you will probably feel the same way after my post but to each his own.

To the OP, all I can say is becareful with the opiates, that shit is hard to come off of. Also, it probably will not help you with your goals you posted in the other threads.


Well, evolution occurs over time from stressors from enviornment/predators.....species must adapt to surive, undergo mutations to live in new areas with different climates. Its more chance, random.....not intelligent....not planned by God. Saying a god exists becasue evolution "seems" so "intelligent", must have been planned, isnt a valid argument, no proof of anything. College evolution classes (not little kid classes) go over eons of proof of change of species to survive. What are these hoaxes you are talking about? We see evolution all the time (bacteria for example), its well documented and not BS, not proven wrong, i dont know where you got that it was all hoaxes.....not to mention we share genes with just about everything. If you have SCIENTIFIC proof of a creator, im open minded to listen, i wont talk shit and roll eyes while not presenting proof of anything.

JW, i dont mean to be missleading, im just saying that organisms change over time and that is NOT disputed....bacteria gain resistance from enviornmental stress (anti-b) as does everything else, same species of birds have differrent beaks to be able to feed on the types of seeds present in THEIR enviornment.

Again, if you have valid proof that can be backed up, im open minded 8-D, but this isnt really the place as people are already being overly sensitive and just talkin shit and not adding anything constructive.


Back to opiates, honestly, if you dont need them (severe pain) dont use them.....evidence has shown that there is much less withdrawl when ACTUALLY used for severe pain, when the pain stops, the drug can be stopped with little consequence...withdrawl seems to occur more with those who get more psych effects from it, like me!
 
BBkingpin said:
All I can say is that if you do not believe in God, you have to be deaf dumb blind stupid. Actually that's an insult to deaf dumb blind and stupid people.
You have to be brainless soulless the walking dead to not believe there's a God.

Your comments sound insulting. Reminds me of why I do not go to church. All the god fearing angels that are on the planet are there telling you how wrong you are and how they are better than you because of such. You know who I am talking about the ones that go without sin casting the first stones. Is that what your god teaches you to be insulting or to be understanding and patient? I personally am glad to live in a world of free choice and will not put you or ANYONE down for their beliefs that would be pretty errogant I would think. Fact is a lot of people are scared of the twelve steps because of "god" being mentioned so if in my lifetime I can help just one person to be free from chains of addiction by telling them they are still free to believe the way they do I will be pretty happy. Believe it or not not everyone believes what you do. Mormans believe one way, muslims believe another , budhists, christians, catholic jews the list goes on and on and each one of them will tell you that you are 100% wrong or lost and they are 100% right unless you believe what they do so I figure I will have a a couple of hundred different hells I will be visiting and/or coming back to life as a dung beetle or something if they are all true.
 
BBkingpin said:
The proof is everywhere. That's why you have to be deaf dumb blind and stupid not to see God's presence when it is everywhere. (Again, I think that's not giving the deaf dumb blind and stupid enough credit.) Evolution proves God. The ability of species to evolve in response to a changing environment so as to perpetuate their survival is proof of the infinite wisdom of the Almighty Creator. :rolleyes:


What did he, she it or whatever you believe in make first? The chicken or the egg? I am just kidding. This really is a bad subject. I did not deserve to be called stupid or whatever but that is how you want to be thats cool. I still have no hard feelings Whatever you want to believe is totally up to you. Who am I to judge, lest I be judged.
 
man, a god post.

seriously, this is how it is. there is no actual proof that any god exists. plain and simple.
you can argue with it all you want. try to tell a mormon have 3 wives is wrong.

science has prooven more about evolution than the bible has.
for instance, earth was not created a few thousand years ago like most god fearing people would like to believe. point : antartica has had ice on it for millions of years. proof: ice layers in stratums like soil.
point : continental drift. proof: there are species of animals that only exist along the atlantic border of south america and africa. where it was once connected with africa. the beaches that are sepperated by an ocean have exactly the same sand, and not all sand is created equally. there are all kinds.
these FACTS contradict the bible.

now, for the deaf dumb and blind. religion has been used for figure heads own personal uses for thousands of years now. case n point. the crusades. now, for those of us who dont know what they are. the pope called for wars against the muslim infidels because they were heathens and didn't believe in the christian god. And what is ironic is that if you research the muslim faith you will discover that the muslim faith and the jewish/christian faith have the same roots, and another point is the recents wars america has been in. what is the favorite phrase our president likes to say after giving a speech about how we are gonna win the war on terrorism ? its " god bless america "

and how do we explain the dinosaur remains ? now, that is not some elaborate hoax where the bones are made out of plastic. also, rocks move through spacific cycles, starting with igneous (fire rock) to sediment, and then into metamorphic rock. now, geologist can PROVE that these rock cycles exist. metamorphic being the oldest of the rocks. some metamorphic rocks are very old.

it really gets to me when people claim people who dont believe in god are dumb. if you were to do a survey on the people who dont believe in god i bet most of them are very intelligent. not that im ragging on intelligent christian people. but, before you start calling people dumb for not believing in god. go to your local college and take a intro to geology class, theories of evolution. at least then, you will have a basic understanding on what you are critizing. dont believe what your preacher or minister says about science being wrong. because it just isn't. if it was we would have never been able to make medicine. steroids come to mind, surgery, put a man on the moon, the computer you are sitting at. ect.
 
Oxycodone 30's/ These are like 30 mg percs... Damn those things are delicious. But if you get hooked it could ruin your life. I have friends who now seem more like heroin addicts. But damn those things get you high!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
JKurz1 said:
I overheard some dudes at the club this past weekend talking about snorting vicodine.....wtf?


lol... ive snorted damn near everything :worried:

DO NOT TRY TO SNORT A DARVACET THO! Its like sniffing shards of glass straight to your dome... shit burned worse than ANYTHING ive ever done :worried: :worried:
 
immortalis said:
lol... ive snorted damn near everything :worried:

DO NOT TRY TO SNORT A DARVACET THO! Its like sniffing shards of glass straight to your dome... shit burned worse than ANYTHING ive ever done :worried: :worried:
ARE U JOKING??? people snort vicodine?? isnt a tab pretty damn big? What did it do?
 
immortalis said:
lol... ive snorted damn near everything :worried:

DO NOT TRY TO SNORT A DARVACET THO! Its like sniffing shards of glass straight to your dome... shit burned worse than ANYTHING ive ever done :worried: :worried:

Me2 and I never did nothing stupid like that. I even snorted minithins at one time in my life. All this oxy, vicodin and shit is basically heroin, save your self some $$ and get the real stuff, hell it is probably easier to get. I always preferred a few 2mg xanaxs over those anyhow. I do not like getting the scratches. Hell just thinking about it makes me scratch, i hate that..
 
itches, like you itch everywhere, drives me nuts... hence I will not touch taht shit,... as far as snorting it, put a tab in a plastic bag, stomp on it with your boot\shoe, chop it up and snort the shit. I bet it burns like a mofo
 
JKurz1 said:
I overheard some dudes at the club this past weekend talking about snorting vicodine.....wtf?

They are idiots. With all that tylenol that must burn like a bitch. I've heard of people snorting an oc but they they don't have any tylenol in them.
 
Thats assinine to snort vicodin although I have done stupider things when I was younger.

Scratches thats a funny but I knew exactly what you were talking about. My nose used to itch the most.
 
C3bodybuilding said:
They are idiots. With all that tylenol that must burn like a bitch. I've heard of people snorting an oc but they they don't have any tylenol in them.

Oxy's/Percs with no tylenol are yum. =) too pricey here though, how can you not love the itch?? lol
 
JKurz1 said:
I overheard some dudes at the club this past weekend talking about snorting vicodine.....wtf?


they are probably full of crap, but for anyone thinking about doing this, snorting vicodin or any cap that has fillers in it is looking to be in real trouble. What happens is that those fillers and the tylenol get into your blood system and can cause clotting and other serious issues if done over time. Also, I was watching a show about finding out the causes of deaths etc, and what happened to this one guy is that his wife was injecting valium and other drugs into his system. That lady autopsy dr mentioned (medicine dr. g or something on the hdsc) that a lot of addicts crush up their percocets, oxies, hydro and then inject it. The fillers, as small as they be, find their way into the lungs. Then, after time, they are slowly deposited all over the lungs and eventually the person suffocates to death. Not a pretty way to go.
 
Here is my problem...hopefully u can assist. I have been taking vics on and off for prob. 2 years for severe pain. I have never ever taken more than 1 at a time for a total of 2 a day. However, this lasted all of the past two years, prob. not mising a day for a good year of at least 1/2 tab.

Anyways, I have flushed all them today. Completely gone. It's been 24 hours since I had a tab and I was ok all day...now, I'm getting the cold flashes big time...freezes....hands and feet are white and cold....head hurts....these are obvious symptons of wd? How long does this take? Do I need to just muster through today and tonight and will it e better tomorrow?
 
its best to stay away from all forms of opioates,i spent time in rehab and was eating as many as 25 -30 10 mg tabs a day.seems like alot but when you have to take 5 just to get anything off them they add up.at first i had the best workouts after i "got a buzz" then after awhile i just took them to relax and kick back.just be carefull and use them with caution.
 
ItalianMuscle27 said:
I take 3 norcos ED for back pain. Only thing I dont like about them, I get tired on them.. Only thing that makes my back feel better, and I am hesitant to get back surgery, so I keep on taking them. I used to be prescribed vicoden ES, but told my doctor they were giving me the shits and they were messing my stomach up. Prescribed me the norcos, and those things went away.. That tylenol is the culprit!


Gonna spond crazy but ive had back pain due to work injury and 3 herniated disks along with spinal stenosis for about 14 years and in year 5 I was told I needed a spinal fusion to fix the disks and holes where the nerves come out, but my doctor told me to wait until i couldnt bear the pain any longer, i quit lifting quit doing everything, got depressed...but NEVER took a pain pill other that ibuprofen. Then one day im laying around feeling sorry for myself and it hit me....my back hurts when i lay around and do nothing and it hurts if i get up and do something.....IM JUST GONNA START DOING WHAT I WANT AND FORGET ABOUT THIS DAMN PAIN, I MEAN ITS ONLY GONNA HURT ITS NOT GONNA KILL ME!!!! So i get up, back to the gym, back into life and im thankful to say 14 years later, no surgery and i still have bouts with backpain but never gotten worse only better over the years but i just accept it...MIND OVER MATTER REALLY WORKS, leave the pain pills out of the back pain equation they only mask the problkem, just my $.02
 
Great advice....pain is for a reason!!!!

Is there a SAFE alternative to extreme pain? Advil? Asprin? On occasion? What is the safest OTC med?
 
there is non-narcotic pain killers out there, ask you doctor, I forget the name of them but he prescribed them to me once "I remeber because I was pissed, I wanted to good stuff!"
 
I know painkillers can make your stool hard and numb your appetite but other than that liver problems, forgetfulness and mood swings.
 
JKurz1 said:
Here is my problem...hopefully u can assist. I have been taking vics on and off for prob. 2 years for severe pain. I have never ever taken more than 1 at a time for a total of 2 a day. However, this lasted all of the past two years, prob. not mising a day for a good year of at least 1/2 tab.

Anyways, I have flushed all them today. Completely gone. It's been 24 hours since I had a tab and I was ok all day...now, I'm getting the cold flashes big time...freezes....hands and feet are white and cold....head hurts....these are obvious symptons of wd? How long does this take? Do I need to just muster through today and tonight and will it e better tomorrow?

Here's the deal brotha. When you have been on pain meds for as long as you have been, your body is filled with vicodin in all areas of your body. These wd's that you are experiencing might last up to 4 days - and it takes 11 days for it to be completely out of your system. The best way to stop taking vicodin is like this:

if you are currently taking 2 a day - let's say 1 in the morning and 1 at night start tapering like this:

1 full one in the morning

1/2 a tab at your next dosage time.

do this for atleast 5-6 days. The plan here is to reduce the overall vicodin (hydro) in your system. Sort of like how gear builds up and peaks in your system and then taper off.

then after your body gets used to taking 1 1/2 a day, now, for the next 5-6 days, take 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 at night.

Then after 5-6 days, take 1/2 in the morning and nothing for the rest of the day or a 1/4 pill.

Continually reduce it by small amounts until you get down to 1/2 a day or 1 a day and then just stop. If you get the runs, take immodium. Usually for vico withdrawl the normal dosage of 1-2 pills won't work, so most will take up to 8 to do the trick. Immodium is actually an altered opium so when taken in high dosages, you won't feel high, but your system will react like it does have some in your system and the wd's won't be as bad.

You can start replacing one of your dosages near night time with benadryl cough syrup or robatussin night to reduce the wd pains / chills or runs.

gl
 
Vicodine,


I don’t understand how some people (speaking about myself) can be addicted to one drug and not even notice other drugs.


I go to AA meetings, my drug is Booze, there are NA meetings for people addicted to opium’s like vicodine.



I would recommend NA,
only AA got me sober, and I believe NA uses the same 12 steps, it is free, only requirement, is a desire to get sober.
 
sparetire said:
Here's the deal brotha. When you have been on pain meds for as long as you have been, your body is filled with vicodin in all areas of your body. These wd's that you are experiencing might last up to 4 days - and it takes 11 days for it to be completely out of your system. The best way to stop taking vicodin is like this:

if you are currently taking 2 a day - let's say 1 in the morning and 1 at night start tapering like this:

1 full one in the morning

1/2 a tab at your next dosage time.

do this for atleast 5-6 days. The plan here is to reduce the overall vicodin (hydro) in your system. Sort of like how gear builds up and peaks in your system and then taper off.

then after your body gets used to taking 1 1/2 a day, now, for the next 5-6 days, take 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 at night.

Then after 5-6 days, take 1/2 in the morning and nothing for the rest of the day or a 1/4 pill.

Continually reduce it by small amounts until you get down to 1/2 a day or 1 a day and then just stop. If you get the runs, take immodium. Usually for vico withdrawl the normal dosage of 1-2 pills won't work, so most will take up to 8 to do the trick. Immodium is actually an altered opium so when taken in high dosages, you won't feel high, but your system will react like it does have some in your system and the wd's won't be as bad.

You can start replacing one of your dosages near night time with benadryl cough syrup or robatussin night to reduce the wd pains / chills or runs.

gl

THANKS BOSS...however one problem....I stopped cold turkey. Tonight will be 72 hours. Numbess, tingle, direahea, hot flashes, loss of appetite, pain...I've felt em all....but I refuse to take another to cope. Am I thorugh the worst of it? It's weird some hours I feel fine and good, then others it hits me like a brick and I feel like hell......think today will be the end?
 
I also had a shitty nights sleep....will taking benedryl or nyquil be harmful, i.e. not allow for my full detox of pain meds?

In the future, what can I take for pain? Advil? Asprin?
 
take the benadryl brotha or NyQuil. Even though your not taking vicodins with Tylenol, your experience pain from the withdrawal. Taking NyQuil has Tylenol in it and will help you with the withdrawal. Take a few imodium (ad i believe) and that will stop the diarrhea, but the rest is up to you. The problem with stopping cold turkey is not so much the withdrawls but the high blood pressure you should be concerned with. Check it regularly and make sure it doesn't get to high. That's why they say taper off slowly so your heart and brain gets used to the lower dosages. hope that helps..take care bro
 
day 3....feel like hell...benedryl only...no pain meds whatsoever.....nyquil has tylenol, why would I want that????? no way....my blood pressure is off the charts LOW!
 
JKurz1 said:
THANKS BOSS...however one problem....I stopped cold turkey. Tonight will be 72 hours. Numbess, tingle, direahea, hot flashes, loss of appetite, pain...I've felt em all....but I refuse to take another to cope. Am I thorugh the worst of it? It's weird some hours I feel fine and good, then others it hits me like a brick and I feel like hell......think today will be the end?

Try and get outside and go for a walk or a slow jog. You have gone this far. If you want to get back to normal "asap". Exercise and Sweat. You endorphins need to be kicked in the ass. Trust me you will feel better and the blah feelings will be reduced if you are able to exercise. Go cut your lawn .. Move around it will pay off. Pain meds shut off your natural endorphins. Anything that will jump start them will help you. Good Luck you are almost there....
 
JKurz1 said:
day 3....feel like hell...benedryl only...no pain meds whatsoever.....nyquil has tylenol, why would I want that????? no way....my blood pressure is off the charts LOW!

i was suggesting the benedryl to help you sleep while taking the cough meds will help with the pain wds. as long as your bp isn't high, u'll be fine.
 
vic's or perc's help me at the end of my cycle cuz the clomid and/or my gf breaking up with me made me depressed! I'm a combat vet and this stuff is hard as hell to come by at the VA
 
solidspine said:
I would recommend NA,
only AA got me sober, and I believe NA uses the same 12 steps, it is free, only requirement, is a desire to get sober.

BS, most of the steps involve saying you are too weak to control your life and you have to put your life into the hands of a higher power. Its state sponsored religion, and even worse it doesn't work. I saw a documentary on AA - after one year the 5% of people from AA are still clean, compared with 5% of those that did it without the help of GOD
 
lhgixxer said:
vic's or perc's help me at the end of my cycle cuz the clomid and/or my gf breaking up with me made me depressed! I'm a combat vet and this stuff is hard as hell to come by at the VA


This thread isn't supposed to be about how to get high from vics or percs just cuz your bummed out about your girl...it's about how to get off. there's a reason why this stuff is hard to get by from the va, cuz people can easily get addicted. And to the above post, whatever means someone gets clean, so be it. Not everyone is an atheist, like some people ^, some rely on a higher power, but just cuz it didn't work for 1, doesn't mean it wouldnt' work for another :)
 
sparetire said:
And to the above post, whatever means someone gets clean, so be it. Not everyone is an atheist, like some people ^, some rely on a higher power, but just cuz it didn't work for 1, doesn't mean it wouldnt' work for another :)

Only problem is when you are forced by the courts to either go to AA (or NA) or go to jail. I agree not everyone is an atheist, but not everyone believes in God either, the great thing about the constitution is that its supposed to protect both groups.

In regards to the post, I had a friend that took 2 ultrams a day, which is not much at all, and it was enough to keep him from gaining. He put on more muscle when he got clean that he did on cycle and painkillers.
 
malkierknight said:
man, a god post.

science has prooven more about evolution than the bible has.
for instance, earth was not created a few thousand years ago like most god fearing people would like to believe. point : antartica has had ice on it for millions of years. proof: ice layers in stratums like soil.
point : continental drift. proof: there are species of animals that only exist along the atlantic border of south america and africa. where it was once connected with africa. the beaches that are sepperated by an ocean have exactly the same sand, and not all sand is created equally. there are all kinds.
these FACTS contradict the bible.

I'm not typically one to deviate from the point of the original poster, but since the topic has been presented already:

Show me where in the bible it gives a literal timeline and has therefore been officially contradicted...

It is well known among biblical scholars that the account of creation in Genesis is not to be taken literally, but rather as an illustrative narration. In other words: not to be taken literally.

Unfortunately, the majority of Christians believe in a "young earth" creation, while the more scientifically educated among us (Christians) question the very plausibility of a "young earth" and agree with almost all of the scientific facts out there regarding the age of the earth, the big bang, etc... with the major exception being Darwin's original theory of a singular ancestor. Micro-evolution is generally not disputed, as it has been proven. Macro-evolution is the theory in question among Christians, and much of this is due to the cambrian "explosion" where all of the major phyla appear rather suddenly (sudden being relative to the age of the earth).

Not all Christians blindly follow without asking questions... although the majority does, and that in itself is simply due to ignorance.
 
Beefcake, this is in reference to the Darwin quote in your signature. Evolution doesn't disprove that there is a God - you can't do that since there is nothing to disprove - hence the term "faith". Its just a proven scientific theory, like the theory that the Earth revolves around the sun for instance...

"An Old, Out of Context, Quotation

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
- Charles Darwin in The Origin of Species, J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd, London, 1971, p. 167. (p. 18 of The Revised Quote Book)

Darwin is not a "modern source." Furthermore, this quotation has been lifted out of context. According to the edition of The Origin of Species published by Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 1952 (in the Great Books series), here is the entire quotation in context:

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."
Darwin then went on to describe how some simple animals have only "aggregates of pigment-cells...without any nerves ... [which] serve only to distinguish light from darkness." Then, in animals a bit more complex, like "star-fish," there exist "small depressions in the layer of [light-sensitive cells] -- depressions which are "filled ... with transparent gelatinous matter and have a clear outer covering, "like the cornea in the higher animals." These eyes lack a lens, but the fact that the light sensitive pigment lies in a "depression" in the skin makes it possible for the animal to tell more precisely from what direction the light is coming. And the more cup-shaped the depression, the better it helps "focus" the image like a simple "box-camera" may do, even without a lens. Likewise in the human embryo, the eye is formed from a "sack-like fold in the skin."

George Gaylord Simpson in The Meaning of Evolution, points out that the different species of modern snail have every intermediate form of eye from a light-sensitive spot to a full lens-and-retina eye.

Neither would all the modifications necessary to improve clarity of vision need to be accomplished by a single method of change, nor by changes occurring simultaneously in the eye as a whole. For instance, Darwin continued: "If a lens has too short or too long a focus, it may be amended either by an alteration of curvature, or an alteration of density; if the curvature be irregular, and the rays do not converge to a point, then any increased regularity of curvature will be an improvement. So [also] the contraction of the iris and the muscular movements of the eye are neither of them essential to vision, but only improvements which might have been added and perfected at any stage of the construction of the instrument. Within the highest division of the animal kingdom, namely the Vertebrata [animals with backbones], we can start from an eye so simple, that it consists, as in the lancelet [small sea animals which evolutionists think resemble the earliest ancestors of fish], of a little sack of transparent skin, furnished with a nerve and lined with pigment, but destitute of any other apparatus. In fishes and reptiles ... the range of gradations of dioptric [optical] structures is very great ... In living bodies, variations will cause the slight modifications, generation will multiply them almost infinitely, and natural selection will pick out with unerring skill each improvement. Let this process go on for millions of years; and during each year on millions of individuals of many kinds; and may we not believe that a living optical instrument might thus be formed as superior to one of glass as the works of the Creator are to those of man?"

That is what Darwin wrote in context. Obviously, he was not admitting that the origin of the eye was an insuperable difficulty, as the editors of The Revised Quote Book wish to deceive their readers into thinking.

Coincidentally, the same week that I checked on the above quotation, the evolutionist, Stephen J. Gould, wrote an article on it! ("Common Pathways of Illumination," Natural History 12/94, p. 10) According to Gould, "Anti-evolutionists continually cite this passage as supposed evidence that Darwin himself threw in the towel when faced with truly difficult and inherently implausible cases. But if they would only read the very next sentence, they would grasp Darwin's real reason for speaking of absurdity 'in the highest possible degree.' (Either they have read these following lines and have consciously suppressed them, an indictment of dishonesty; or they have never read them and have merely copied the half quotation from another source, a proof of inexcusable sloppiness. Darwin set up the overt 'absurdity' to display the power of natural selection in resolving even the most difficult cases -- the ones that initially strike us as intractable in principle. The very next liner, give three reasons all supported by copious evidence for resolving the absurdity and accepting evolutionary development as the cause of optimally complex structures."

Besides Gould's article there have appeared several others on the topic of the evolution of the eye, demonstrating that such an evolution is far from "absurd," but rather is entirely plausible.

See professor Kenneth R. Miller's excellent article on eye evolution, "Life's Grand Design" (Technology Review, v. 97, no. 2, Feb./Mar. 1994, pp. 24-32).

See also D. E. Nilsson and S. Pelger's article, "A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve" (Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 1994, v.. 256, pp. 53-58).

In his recent book, River Out of Eden (Basic Books, 1995), Richard Dawkins points out how Nilsson and Pelger set up a computer model of evolving eyes to determine if a smooth gradient of change exists from a pigmented eye spot to the camera eye with a lens and cornea, and how long it would take such a transformation to occur. They employed pessimistic figures for the amounts of change possible per generation -- giving their model only 50% "heritability" (many human traits are over 50% inheritable), and chose pessimistic values for the coefficient of variation (how much variation there typically is in a population). And they determined that Darwinian evolution could produce a good camera eye in less than a half a million years! That's a mere "blink of the eye" in geologic time!

Since an eye's efficiency can be easily measured using elementary optics, their computer simulation had more validity than, say, trying to measure how subtle anatomical changes increased the efficiency of a cheetah's speed and agility.

"Nilsson and Pelger began with a flat retina atop a flat pigment layer and surmounted by a flat, protective transparent layer. The transparent layer was allowed to undergo localized random mutations of its refractive index. They then let the model deform itself at random, constrained only by the requirement that any change must be small and must be an improvement on what went before. The results were swift and decisive ... leading unhesitatingly from the flat beginning through a shallow indentation to a steadily deepening cup. The transparent layer thickened to fill the cup and smoothly bulged its outer surface in a curve [the cornea]. And then, almost like a conjuring trick, a portion of this transparent filling condensed into a local, spherical subregion of higher refractive index [a lens]." -- Dawkins, pp. 80-81

And the lens that formed was not of a uniform refractive index, but was "graded," just like real eyes, with the highest refractive index near the center of the lens! And it was graded according to the optimum ratio for vision, known as "Mattiessen's ratio."

I should add that Nilsson and Pelger's computer simulation never produced an eye that combined the focus of two lenses -- one placed directly behind the other -- lenses that could slide toward and away from each other to produce added magnification and "close-ups" of small objects and far away objects, as in a "zoom camera." Instead, the best "zoom" available to us humans is to bring the newsprint closer to our eyes! I guess the "Biblical Creator" in his infinite wisdom could not design eyes any better than natural selection could. However, robots of the future will undoubtedly have such "extra" design features added by their human creators.

Other recent articles, like Gould's, mentioned above, have pointed out how a common genetic key triggers the development of eyes of vastly different construction in animals as varied as flies and mice (in vertebrates and invertebrates). So, all eyes may originate from a common ancestor that evolved this genetic trigger. See for instance, Peter Monagham's article, "Revelations from Fruit Flies" (Chronicle of Higher Education A8-A9, May 26, 1995). And also see Carol Yaesuk Yoon's article, "The Wizard of Eyes: Evolution Creates Novelties by Varying the Same Old Tricks" (New York Times, Nov- 1, pp. C1, C11).

Also see the articles on eye evolution in Science, v. 265, no. 5173, Aug. 5, 1994, pp. 742 & 785; and in Nature, v. 368, Apr. 21, 1994, p. 690.

As an aside, I must mention a recent article in Discover magazine (Jan. 1996), titled, "From Fin to Hand," that discussed how merely extending the length of time a particular gene remained activated during embryological development, had a lot to do with turning a fin into a hand! So, minor mutations of embryologic growth patterns might produce larger effects than expected, even perhaps in the story of eye evolution from an eyespot to a skin dimple to an eye cup, etc."
 
Taolk about a fucking hyjacked thread ENOUGH! I'm on day 5 no turning back now...pain is bad but tolerable....SLeep is HORRIBLE...even with benedrylly 2 tabs....if I take nyquil is that a bad move? I havent taken any pain meds whatsoever....not even asprin....but isnt their tylenol in nyquil? SImple Sleep? I need to sleep tonight...help please....If I take nyquil, is my wd gonna start all over again??
 
If you can"t handle pain meds kick the habit and don"t turn back!!!I"ve been off and on pain meds for years and never had a problem stopping when I healed up whatever was tore up.Some pain is not tolerable and something must be used to help with it to live a somewhat normal life.
 
Understand but five days of cleanness, I want to fight through the wd sytmptoms and be done with it....are there any OTC pain meds that are safe and will not interefere with my body getting rid of the toxins from vicodine? Do I just need to stay away from tyelonol? Can I use asprin or advil or aleve???
 
Anthony Starks said:
Beefcake, this is in reference to the Darwin quote in your signature. Evolution doesn't disprove that there is a God - you can't do that since there is nothing to disprove - hence the term "faith". Its just a proven scientific theory, like the theory that the Earth revolves around the sun for instance...

"An Old, Out of Context, Quotation

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
- Charles Darwin in The Origin of Species, J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd, London, 1971, p. 167. (p. 18 of The Revised Quote Book)

Darwin is not a "modern source." Furthermore, this quotation has been lifted out of context. According to the edition of The Origin of Species published by Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 1952 (in the Great Books series), here is the entire quotation in context:

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."
Darwin then went on to describe how some simple animals have only "aggregates of pigment-cells...without any nerves ... [which] serve only to distinguish light from darkness." Then, in animals a bit more complex, like "star-fish," there exist "small depressions in the layer of [light-sensitive cells] -- depressions which are "filled ... with transparent gelatinous matter and have a clear outer covering, "like the cornea in the higher animals." These eyes lack a lens, but the fact that the light sensitive pigment lies in a "depression" in the skin makes it possible for the animal to tell more precisely from what direction the light is coming. And the more cup-shaped the depression, the better it helps "focus" the image like a simple "box-camera" may do, even without a lens. Likewise in the human embryo, the eye is formed from a "sack-like fold in the skin."

George Gaylord Simpson in The Meaning of Evolution, points out that the different species of modern snail have every intermediate form of eye from a light-sensitive spot to a full lens-and-retina eye.

Neither would all the modifications necessary to improve clarity of vision need to be accomplished by a single method of change, nor by changes occurring simultaneously in the eye as a whole. For instance, Darwin continued: "If a lens has too short or too long a focus, it may be amended either by an alteration of curvature, or an alteration of density; if the curvature be irregular, and the rays do not converge to a point, then any increased regularity of curvature will be an improvement. So [also] the contraction of the iris and the muscular movements of the eye are neither of them essential to vision, but only improvements which might have been added and perfected at any stage of the construction of the instrument. Within the highest division of the animal kingdom, namely the Vertebrata [animals with backbones], we can start from an eye so simple, that it consists, as in the lancelet [small sea animals which evolutionists think resemble the earliest ancestors of fish], of a little sack of transparent skin, furnished with a nerve and lined with pigment, but destitute of any other apparatus. In fishes and reptiles ... the range of gradations of dioptric [optical] structures is very great ... In living bodies, variations will cause the slight modifications, generation will multiply them almost infinitely, and natural selection will pick out with unerring skill each improvement. Let this process go on for millions of years; and during each year on millions of individuals of many kinds; and may we not believe that a living optical instrument might thus be formed as superior to one of glass as the works of the Creator are to those of man?"

That is what Darwin wrote in context. Obviously, he was not admitting that the origin of the eye was an insuperable difficulty, as the editors of The Revised Quote Book wish to deceive their readers into thinking.

Coincidentally, the same week that I checked on the above quotation, the evolutionist, Stephen J. Gould, wrote an article on it! ("Common Pathways of Illumination," Natural History 12/94, p. 10) According to Gould, "Anti-evolutionists continually cite this passage as supposed evidence that Darwin himself threw in the towel when faced with truly difficult and inherently implausible cases. But if they would only read the very next sentence, they would grasp Darwin's real reason for speaking of absurdity 'in the highest possible degree.' (Either they have read these following lines and have consciously suppressed them, an indictment of dishonesty; or they have never read them and have merely copied the half quotation from another source, a proof of inexcusable sloppiness. Darwin set up the overt 'absurdity' to display the power of natural selection in resolving even the most difficult cases -- the ones that initially strike us as intractable in principle. The very next liner, give three reasons all supported by copious evidence for resolving the absurdity and accepting evolutionary development as the cause of optimally complex structures."

Besides Gould's article there have appeared several others on the topic of the evolution of the eye, demonstrating that such an evolution is far from "absurd," but rather is entirely plausible.

See professor Kenneth R. Miller's excellent article on eye evolution, "Life's Grand Design" (Technology Review, v. 97, no. 2, Feb./Mar. 1994, pp. 24-32).

See also D. E. Nilsson and S. Pelger's article, "A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve" (Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 1994, v.. 256, pp. 53-58).

In his recent book, River Out of Eden (Basic Books, 1995), Richard Dawkins points out how Nilsson and Pelger set up a computer model of evolving eyes to determine if a smooth gradient of change exists from a pigmented eye spot to the camera eye with a lens and cornea, and how long it would take such a transformation to occur. They employed pessimistic figures for the amounts of change possible per generation -- giving their model only 50% "heritability" (many human traits are over 50% inheritable), and chose pessimistic values for the coefficient of variation (how much variation there typically is in a population). And they determined that Darwinian evolution could produce a good camera eye in less than a half a million years! That's a mere "blink of the eye" in geologic time!

Since an eye's efficiency can be easily measured using elementary optics, their computer simulation had more validity than, say, trying to measure how subtle anatomical changes increased the efficiency of a cheetah's speed and agility.

"Nilsson and Pelger began with a flat retina atop a flat pigment layer and surmounted by a flat, protective transparent layer. The transparent layer was allowed to undergo localized random mutations of its refractive index. They then let the model deform itself at random, constrained only by the requirement that any change must be small and must be an improvement on what went before. The results were swift and decisive ... leading unhesitatingly from the flat beginning through a shallow indentation to a steadily deepening cup. The transparent layer thickened to fill the cup and smoothly bulged its outer surface in a curve [the cornea]. And then, almost like a conjuring trick, a portion of this transparent filling condensed into a local, spherical subregion of higher refractive index [a lens]." -- Dawkins, pp. 80-81

And the lens that formed was not of a uniform refractive index, but was "graded," just like real eyes, with the highest refractive index near the center of the lens! And it was graded according to the optimum ratio for vision, known as "Mattiessen's ratio."

I should add that Nilsson and Pelger's computer simulation never produced an eye that combined the focus of two lenses -- one placed directly behind the other -- lenses that could slide toward and away from each other to produce added magnification and "close-ups" of small objects and far away objects, as in a "zoom camera." Instead, the best "zoom" available to us humans is to bring the newsprint closer to our eyes! I guess the "Biblical Creator" in his infinite wisdom could not design eyes any better than natural selection could. However, robots of the future will undoubtedly have such "extra" design features added by their human creators.

Other recent articles, like Gould's, mentioned above, have pointed out how a common genetic key triggers the development of eyes of vastly different construction in animals as varied as flies and mice (in vertebrates and invertebrates). So, all eyes may originate from a common ancestor that evolved this genetic trigger. See for instance, Peter Monagham's article, "Revelations from Fruit Flies" (Chronicle of Higher Education A8-A9, May 26, 1995). And also see Carol Yaesuk Yoon's article, "The Wizard of Eyes: Evolution Creates Novelties by Varying the Same Old Tricks" (New York Times, Nov- 1, pp. C1, C11).

Also see the articles on eye evolution in Science, v. 265, no. 5173, Aug. 5, 1994, pp. 742 & 785; and in Nature, v. 368, Apr. 21, 1994, p. 690.

As an aside, I must mention a recent article in Discover magazine (Jan. 1996), titled, "From Fin to Hand," that discussed how merely extending the length of time a particular gene remained activated during embryological development, had a lot to do with turning a fin into a hand! So, minor mutations of embryologic growth patterns might produce larger effects than expected, even perhaps in the story of eye evolution from an eyespot to a skin dimple to an eye cup, etc."


Regarding the quote... I am fully aware that it was taken out of context, and am also aware of what Darwin states following the quote (i.e. "in context"). My intentions were not to use that quote to describe my stance on evolution, but I can see how it could be easily interpreted that way. I simply put the quote in my signature because I found it interesting... either taken in or out of context. I am not "anti-evolution".

The last thing I wanted to do, was to come across as doing the very thing that Gould mentioned.

I am rather familiar with Darwin, Gould, and Dawkins, among many others... and am rather well read regarding the subject of evolution and embryonic development, as well as the genetics, chemistry, and biology that goes along with it. I won't say that I agree with many of the assumptions that many authors make when they try and use science to demonstrate that there is no God, or a "Creator". I don't dispute scientific fact... I only disagree with their use of that science to argue the inexistence of a God. I could easily use science to try and prove that there is a God, or rather, a measure of "intelligent design", from which only implications can be made... I could also use science to try and imply the lack of a "Creator", but neither side can be PROVEN, so all it amounts to is an individual bias and which personal implications are read into the actual facts. Lack of proof does not constitute proof of absence. In other words:

Argument from ignorance

The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:

1. Something is currently unexplained (or insufficiently explained), so it was not, or could not, be true.
2. Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven.

An adage regarding this fallacy from the philosophy of science is that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence": not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true. Similarly, merely not having evidence for a particular proposition is not proof that an alternative proposition is instead the case--it is in fact simply lack of evidence, and nothing more.

Argument from ignorance is also known by its Latin title of argumentum ad ignorantiam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

I don't want this to become any sort of philosophical debate, but rather, decided to illustrate why I don't agree with the many of the assumptions, implications, etc... that atheistic authors try to pass off as fact. The absence or presence of a Creator cannot be proven through science, and any arguments trying to demonstrate such are flawed in their very premise. That said, I'll make my own implications, and you are free to make yours.

I do want to thank you for pointing out how that quote could cause someone to misinterpret my stance on this subject... and in the interest of avoiding that, I've decided to remove it from my signature.
 
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