Oral AAS before a workout.

[panerai]

Why Cytadren is a poor choice?
First of all, there's no need to inhibit cortisol production as efficiently, as aminoglutethimide does. AAS alone prevent falling into catabolic state, to enough degree. Secondly, in doses around 1000mg/day, high enough to inhibit cortisol production, Cytadren will inhibit production of androgens( not important on cycle), aldosterone and thyroid hormone, no good!
Bunch of milder side effects have to be expected, like rashes, swolling, vomiting, dizziness, disorientation, etc..
And, the most importantly, with such a doses, because of feedback mechanism, in a matter of two weeks, body, dispite presence of Cytadren, will start again production, and, actually, overproduction of cortisol.


Andy, you asked, if antiglucocoticoid action is beneficial for growth. Well, it will not grow muscles, but certainly will prevent them from waisting, like postworkout, for example, or other stress cituations.

 

[Zyglamail]

A lot of what people are taught is wrong such as T3 will strip you of all your muscle. Theoretically, it makes sense, but in real life it doesn't happen.

Hmm, so what your saying is T3 does not (or will not) strip muscle? If thats the case what about the couple dozen people I have talked to who once they hit 150-200mcg dialy they get lethargic, lose strenght and size?

 

[Andy13]

Why Cytadren is a poor choice?
First of all, there's no need to inhibit cortisol production as efficiently, as aminoglutethimide does. AAS alone prevent falling into catabolic state, to enough degree. Secondly, in doses around 1000mg/day, high enough to inhibit cortisol production, Cytadren will inhibit production of androgens( not important on cycle), aldosterone and thyroid hormone, no good!
Bunch of milder side effects have to be expected, like rashes, swolling, vomiting, dizziness, disorientation, etc..
And, the most importantly, with such a doses, because of feedback mechanism, in a matter of two weeks, body, dispite presence of Cytadren, will start again production, and, actually, overproduction of cortisol.


Andy, you asked, if antiglucocoticoid action is beneficial for growth. Well, it will not grow muscles, but certainly will prevent them from waisting, like postworkout, for example, or other stress cituations.

Thanks for the references..

I've read before where androgens can block GR's... No question about that.. BUT is reducing (normal) GR activation really going to make a measurable difference in muscle growth? Your papers only confirm the ability of AAS to reduce GR activation.. But it only postulates the possibility that this may contribute to the over-all effectiveness of the AAS.

Whether or not lower GR activation had a positive effect on gains was a topic I discussed with Bill Roberts... You can bring your GR activation to a screaching halt by using cytadren.. But, as stated by Bill Roberts, it really doesn't seem to make that much of a difference as far as increasing over-all effectiveness. While I agree that HIGH cortisol levels certainly will affect growth, I'm not so sure physiological levels hinder growth all that much.. Yes, I KNOW that paper states the possibility of blocking GRs as a way for AAS to work.. But, again, back to cytadren, where extremely low cortisol levels can be obtained, but not to the benefit of any athelete.

Andy

 

[Andy13]

I consider myself an expert on Clen and T3. Before using either drug, I read all I could; medline, physician desk reference, popular books, websites...

I found that a lot of the theory was off.

Well that's fantastic....

A lot of what people are taught is wrong such as T3 will strip you of all your muscle. Theoretically, it makes sense, but in real life it doesn't happen.

I used up to 50mcg with no STEROIDS and I did not lose any muscle or strength. I did look extremely tiny and my muscle were softer than they had ever been. I had trouble "feeling" my muscles because there was such a lack of pump. I looked about 20lbs lighter, yet I haden't lost an ounce. This can easily be thought of as muscle lost but I know my body so I was able to really zoom in on what was going on.

Mmmmk... Why don't you just re-read what you have written.. You "looked extremely tiny," had trouble "feeling" your muscles, and were softer than you have ever been.. Yup. Definetly sounds like you held on to every single ounce of muscle!

The point is that theory is extremely important, but real world experience is just as important. That's why Duchaine was the man(unlike Roberts), he talked the talk and he walked the walk...

Ok.. How do you know Bill Roberts doesn't "walk the walk?" Have you ever seen a picture of DD? Yeah, buddy.. 'Walk the walk...'

I think that real-word expirience is important too... But do you realize that the analytical methods that BBer's use is (count to ten..) less than meaningful. What I mean is that there isn't much that comes out of a BBer's mouth that you can REALLY hang a hat on. "I felt leaner." Ok.. Maybe when he looked in the mirror and thought this he: had just tanned, just got a girl's phone number, had a seratonin rush, had a meal earlier that made his veins come out and filled his glycogen stores... Or, maybe he just replaced a light bulb in his bathroom..

Do you see where I'm coming from here??? There's nothing here to quantify his results.. Even body fat analysis, statistically, has such a margin of error to make conclusions drawn from a diet/AAS program highly suspect.. And you know what? Most BBer's don't even bother to take bodyfat measurements! They just go on "how they look." After all, "they know their bodies." Give me a break.. Guess what? I know my bamboo tree too... I see it every day. It doesn't move or anything.. Buuuuut.... I can't even begin to judge how effective this conkoction I made up is at making it grow unless I measure it.

Andy

 

[BigAndy69]

"Mmmmk... Why don't you just re-read what you have written.. You "looked extremely tiny," had trouble "feeling" your muscles, and were softer than you have ever
been.. Yup. Definetly sounds like you held on to every single ounce of muscle! "

My strength stayed the same, same number of reps for the same amount of weight used. It actually increased for some lifts. My arm measurements stayed the same as well as my chest measurements. BTW, I noticed that the bad feeling went away when I trained and pumped more blood into my muscles. My friend was shocked on how much larger I looked after my workout. He saw me right before my workout in the locker room and right after. I didn't tell him anything about a lack of muscle pump or anything similar, he just saw the change on his own.


"Well that's fantastic.... "

I don't understand what you mean by this, I was simply making the point that a lot of what I read was off and I wouldn't have known this unless I tried it on myself.




Ok.. How do you know Bill Roberts doesn't "walk the walk?" Have you ever seen a picture of DD? Yeah, buddy.. 'Walk the walk...'

No, I've never seen pictures of Bill Roberts, and I'm not suprised. DD had kidney problems, do you expect him to be a monster? By walk the walk, I meant that DD actually tried these things on himself and we know this because he came up with real world, anectodal information that Roberts never seems to come up with. Roberts has never claimed to use any of the drugs or theory he writes about.


Also, we are not talking about BBers who simply think they look leaner, we are talking about guys you measure every last gram of food and take measurements weekly.

 

[panerai]

I don't think that we are talking about physiological level of cortisol, if someone properly trains while using AAS. One can push himself so much harder, without going into overtraining and instead of gaining, loosing muscles, as would happen to natural athlete.
Why top pros like Ronnie Coleman can train each bodypart twice a week, with non human intensity, and still grow?
Same, with Lee Priest, Shawn Ray, and some others?
Does Bill have an explanation for it?
Or, should we brush it off, because, there's no studies done on those individuals?
Late Paul Borreson ideas about using high amounts of AAS and pushing oneself to the limit, to try to get into as much of catabolic state as possible, which would simply result in anabolic responce, if enough AAS are used, make a lot of sense, if you observe what pros are doing, and how they transform in such a short period of time (Levrone, Priest, Kamali, etc..)
Again, your reference to Cytadren doesn't make much sense, because, it's not effecient on a long run, unless you do two weeks cycles.

 

[panerai]

[Quantitative bibliographic review on the use of anabolic hormones with steroidogenic action in ruminants for meat production. II. Principal mode of action]

[Revue bibliographique quantitative sur l'utilisation des hormones anabolisantes a action steroidienne chez les ruminants en production de viande. II. Principaux modes d'action.]
Reprod Nutr Dev 1993;33(4):297-323 (ISSN: 0926-5287)

Schmidely P [Find other articles with this Author]
INA-PG, station Nutrition et Alimentation, Paris, France.

The hypotheses on the modes of action of hormonal anabolic agents in growing animals have been reviewed in more than 120 recent publications. The mechanisms of action are still not fully understood. Androgens such as testosterone and estrogens such as oestradiol-17 beta (E-17 beta) may act in different ways: firstly, testosterone (and probably also E-17 beta) acts directly on different tissues, and particularly at the level of the muscle cell by binding to a specific receptor. The hormone-receptor complex interacts with the nuclear receptor located in the chromatin and enhances protein synthesis (and probably also protein degradation). Trenbolone acetate (TBA) reduces protein synthesis and to a greater extent protein degradation. This action of TBA could take place via a reduction in the activity of catabolic glucocorticoids, either by a diminution in their secretion, or by displacing them from their receptor, or by reducing the number of receptors. Secondly, an indirect action of anabolic hormones is probable via the modifications in activity of other growth-regulating hormones. Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I concentrations are enhanced by E-17 beta, diethylstilbestrol, zeranol and testosterone but not by TBA. Insulin appears to be indirectly enhanced by estrogens through an increase in growth hormone, whereas androgens reduce insulin levels. Thyroid hormone (tri- and tetra-iodothyronine) activity is reduced by androgens, whereas the action of oestrogens depends on the physiological maturity of the animal. The modes of action of these anabolic hormones are discussed in relation to growth rate and body composition.
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Yes, most of users don't gain a lot from Tren only, but just from CNS stimulation and antiglucocorticoid action, some noticable gains are achived.
Of course, Test and dbol are different, but they all are strong androgens, and, actually, Test and dbol have aromatise activity as an advantage for growth, comparing to Tren, besides the "pure" anabolic action.

 

[CRNT93]

Trenbolone acetate (TBA) reduces protein synthesis and to a greater extent protein degradation.

WTF! Trenbolone REDUCES protein synthesis?!

 

[DEI]

Bump

 

[Japanese machine]

sweet info bro, thanks for taking the time to post it.