Oly lifting form for core strength?

[Sassy69]

I apologize - I occassionally pop in here w/ another question as I dig around to find what sort of approach to take w/ my training -

My goal is to find a routine that will help me refocus on developing core strength. I don't need size and I don't need to 'get stronger' - i.e. not looking to develop heavy lifts. I'm more interested in developing my core strength so the problems I have now won't continue to be issues for the rest of my life - specifically lower back / ham & glute area. As far as bodyfat loss & all that, I'm also spendign more of my time in the gym on cardio than on lifting and diet is getting tamed back to lower cals in general and pushing down the protein intake just a little. (I'm 40 yrs old, 5'7", weigh around 155 lb, 13%-ish bodyfat, what I consider to be "very muscular" (15.5" bicep, easy 16" pumped & flexed!) but a meso body type. Typical diet is around 17-1800 cals, macros: 50% protein, 30% carb, 20% fat but often cycle the carbs/fats.) Where I came from & where I"m at now are below:

I'm a 25 yr BB-style lifter, 3 competitions in the last 5 yrs. I've got a weak lower back & tight IP band on my left side from a rotated pelvis 2 yrs ago. More recently some long-existing rotator cuff pain has flared under the stress of heavier competition training and my whole upper back has responded by liking to lock up in one giant muscle spasm. I stopped lifting for 3 weeks & worked w/ my chiro / LMT to work out the back issues but it still doesn't take much to make it flare up.

I'm back in the gym and my regimen is something as follows:

Day 1: chest & tris, 30min - 1 hr cardio
Giant (chest):
- incline bar
- incline DB fly
- cable x-over
Giant (tris):
- skull crushers + close grip press
- cable press down
- DB kick backs
OR unassisted tri dips -- may add these if I have anything left

Day 2: back & bis, 30 min - 1 hr cardio
Giant (back):
- Lat pull down or assisted pull-ups
- Smith bent over rows (use smith for most things that hit my lower back)
- hammer strength seated row or 1 arm DB row
Giant (bis):
- EZ bar 21s
- DB hammer curls
- hi cable bis

Day 3: legs, 30 + min cardio
Giant (hams):
- Smith DLs
- lying or seated leg curl
- reverse hypers
Giant (quads):
- Squat or hack squat
- leg press
- leg extension

Day 4: shoulders + rear delts, 30+ min cardio -- these I've been laying off since the back & rotators flared up


Anyway -- this is typical of what I do & have done for years. Usually 3 sets of 10-15 -- moving back to higher reps since the roatator thign -- prior to that I hit some pretty nice lifetime PRs so now have to just step away from that whole heavy mindset.

Some thoughts were around Oly training - and primarily looking to that training in terms of getting the form correct. Cleans, etc. I've seen use of DBs for overhear squat work and stuff like that.

Any suggestions of a program or where I might look for "how tos" to get me going in a typical commercial gym w/ me, myself & I as my training partner.

Also feel free to ask me wtf I think I'm doign w/this approach as well - I'm really rooting around for ways to refocus my training because what I do now I've been doign for years. Its boring, I can't improve with higher weights anymore and the stuff like DLs, squats, etc are all pushing me back to the machines like smith & hack for support. Which is probably telling me 2 things - my lower back / core isn't strong enough to hold good form and because of that my form is probably getting compromised, thus keepign me at lower weights and possibly encouraging wrong form probably leading to new & more exciting injuries.

 

[Cynical Simian]

I can't improve with higher weights anymore and the stuff like DLs, squats, etc are all pushing me back to the machines like smith & hack for support. Which is probably telling me 2 things - my lower back / core isn't strong enough to hold good form and because of that my form is probably getting compromised, thus keepign me at lower weights and possibly encouraging wrong form probably leading to new & more exciting injuries.

Geez, I was coming up with a nice reply as I read the post, but then you pretty much stole it in the last paragraph. So now I'll just throw up a link to a relevant madcow post.

Rather than Olympic lifts, maybe just focus on (unassisted) compound lifts and emphasize core rather than "beach" work as your assistance lifts. Start doing free weight squats, deads, rows, etc. with very conservative weights - whatever your core will allow you to handle - and slowly add weight. It'll be frustrating at first because you'll be thinking "dammit, my legs could squat twice this much if only my back would cooperate", but, like you said, doing it with higher weights is more likely to hurt than help.

If posterior chain strength is an issue, spend a lot more time with that reverse hyper machine. SLDLs and GMs would also be good choices.

Also, don't underestimate the importance of ab strength on stuff like squats and deads. If you've only approached ab training from an aesthetic perspective in the past, they might also be a weakness. Focus on weighted decline sit-ups and/or Needsize's ab exercise, and add weight as needed.

Sorry about not being able to tell you whether Oly lifts would be a good idea. Hopefully super_rice and others with more experience with them will chime in.

 

[Jim Ouini]

To add to what CS said, I know front squats are more of a core challenge for me, and I'd probably say OH squats too except I can't do them

Standing OHP or 1-arm standing db press and standing cable rows help me too. And I've found my midsection to be surprisingly sore after pullups and dips. One-arm (or 'suitcase') deadlifts are also great for core.

Basically compound stuff where you have to support and stabilize your body instead of relying on machine, and standing instead of sitting.

All of these will require you go lighter than their big brother equivalent so that might fit into your training right now.

Just my 2c.

 

[Sassy69]

CS thx for the response-- the link to madcows comment is exactly what I want to avoid. It also reminded me of "The Dave Tate Project"... I spent years actually avoiding the squat because my form wasn't good and the best I could ever do was 45 plates and it wasn't pretty. A couple yrs ago I finally got my form right workign w/ a couple PLers in this awesome hardcore gym of all places, in Superior, WI. It was so cool -these guys brought in buckets full of chains, we each had our own sets of bands, chalk everywhere! But I digress....

I've been digging thru the Vault, elitefts.com & t-nation for stuff and couldn't remember all the places where I saw things I wanted to try, so I started w/ the warm-up cycle from here: http://www.aceathlete.com/hatch/video.htm. I'm at the parents' condo and the "fitness room" consists of a weider Universal machine, a couple cheesie cardio machines and this set of Bowflex DBs (the kind where you dial the weight you want & it locks in the plates to add up to that amount. I've already had one of the dials slip & drop a 2 lb plate on my face.... ).

So as best I could remember:

10 min treadmill warm up

Dynamic stretching:
- high knee run - forward, backward
- butt kick - fwd, bkwd
- side step over thingy
- high kick
- threw in some karate side kicks & L & R

Static stretching:
- touch toes straight legs
- touch toes , cross over
- quad stretch
- abs - 20 crunches + 20 oblique crunches x 2 + legs straight up in the air "climb the rope" crunches
- ab stretch ("downward dog") + cat stretch ("child pose" from yoga)
- arms across front stretch
- tri stretch

LOL -- forgot his sequence of the straight bar exercise...

Instead I did:
- 1 arm DB clean & press - 10x, each side (20 lb DBs)
- DBs squat clean - 10 x
- DB DLs - 10 x

20 min elliptical

I've never really "neglected" abs - with the exception of last yr (trainer said no ab work... this was often a point of heated debate, but often I'd just go do them at home or at a diff gym). But since the rotated pelvis thing lots of the stuff I"d done in the past for abs would end up hurting - e.g. hanging abs -- I immediately get a pinch on my left lower back every freekin time. So have stuck w/ cable abs on the fitball, kneeling cable abs & htat sort of thing. Also stayed away from decline weighted abs due to lower back pain, but I'll take a look at some of the options you suggested.

Thx I really appreciate this -- its basically back to basics and I have no problem w/ the weight discrepancy -- I pushed some of the heaviest weights ever and was very happy w/ it - but my joints couldn't keep up w/ it so there's no point even attemptign to do that anymore. Its funny tho considering avoiding squats and all the basic stuff, I pulled off the following for 10 reps avg:

leg press: 14 plates
smith shrugs: 4 plates
hammer strength rows: 135 lb on each side
DB press - 60 lb DBs
DB incline - 60 lb DBs
lat pull downs: 150 lb
leg extensions 150 lb

Sort of random but I was pretty happy. My body was not. Back to the realllll basic stuff.

 

[BiggT]

I'm not an injury expert by any means....I'd suggest beginning squats and deadlifts all raw, no belt, regardless of what weight you have to use and add lbs gradually (I know you said thats not what you wanted to hear, lol)

For the olympic lifts, start doing overhead squats (greatest core strengthener in the world, imo) and front squats, while you are getting comfortable with them, you can practice jump shrugs and clean/snatch pulls.

Another idea.....you can do overhead squats, maybe 4 sets of 5 as a warm-up to every workout.

You can maybe even do an AM workout of light front squats, overhead squats, and various clean/snatch hybrids 2 or 3 times a week.

For stability, I'd suggest olympic weightlifting shoes, sneakers are too squishy and unstable obviously, and the flat soled powerlifting shoes and Chuck Taylor's also aren't good for ATF squatting either because with plympic/front/overhead squats you aren't sitting back and spreading the floor with your feet.....the raised heel of an oly lifting shoe makes a big difference.

 

[fortunatesun]

Just want to give my 2 cents on the issue of core strength as it wasn't specifically covered in the above posts.
Iv'e been thinking about this issue lately, partly because of your previous thread Sassy, as well as some other things. There's plenty of good exercises that will improve your strength in this area. All will vary in effectiveness depending on the individual. But what of the bodybuilder not interested in developing a nice, thick, mid-section to support heavy lifts, or enthusiasts of other sports, or many women for that matter?

At the risk of sounding trendy, I believe the increasingly popular area of MMA may be an answer: Core Training For the Martial Arts Not an extensive article, but it touches on the subject. Chad Waterbury over at T-Nation is also currently doing an MMA strength training series that is excellent but there's a lot of info to sift through:http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=487076

Aside from sport specific uses that aren't an issue here, this is still a basic strength training approach, but designed to incorperate the issues of flexability and stability as well as need to maintain weight class. I'm thinking this may also be more useful in avoiding aggrevations of existing conditions through 'real world' encounters as well.

Also, because it's suitable to give EF props where we can, if you want a more traditional exercise selection then consider Needsize crunches. Tension is acheived through a static hold, not pushing major weights, resulting in strength increase without unwanted mass. A similar exercise for obliques would be Russian Twists.

 

[Sassy69]

I knew I'd get pointed in the right direction --- I've "seen" some of this stuff around but the whole scope of my experience keeps bringing me back to the same ol' BB stuff - every trainer I've ever used does the same type stuff. The only 2 times I've done anythign different and actually had it bring better results w/ my regular training was the 2 months I spent w/ these 2 PL guys and 2 times I trained w/ the local rugby team off season and discovered the joys of truck pulling.

I also just learned what "needsize crunches" are and will continue to delve deeper into the treasures of "The Vault"!

 

[glennpendlay]

Learn to overhead squat. Dont push yourself hard, just learn to do it, do it fairly often, and add weight slowly. Learn to front squat and overhead press with a barbell. Make sure you are doing them right... elbows up on the front squat, chest up on the front squat, arms and wrists relaxed, etc. Make sure on your overhead presses you start with arms/sholders/elbows in the right position, a position that would make a change to push presses with little or no adjustment in form, and make sure you are locking the bar out behind your head, not in front.

It may be presumptios to say this after knowing you and your training not at all except for a couple of posts... but what you are describing is something that i dont think is all that uncommon. Youre quite developed physically, but your body has had very little experience working as one unit compared to the training you have done working everything individually. When you "learn" to work as a unit, the whole body together, I think a lot of the little problems will go away.

 

[Sassy69]

Learn to overhead squat. Dont push yourself hard, just learn to do it, do it fairly often, and add weight slowly. Learn to front squat and overhead press with a barbell. Make sure you are doing them right... elbows up on the front squat, chest up on the front squat, arms and wrists relaxed, etc. Make sure on your overhead presses you start with arms/sholders/elbows in the right position, a position that would make a change to push presses with little or no adjustment in form, and make sure you are locking the bar out behind your head, not in front.

It may be presumptios to say this after knowing you and your training not at all except for a couple of posts... but what you are describing is something that i dont think is all that uncommon. Youre quite developed physically, but your body has had very little experience working as one unit compared to the training you have done working everything individually. When you "learn" to work as a unit, the whole body together, I think a lot of the little problems will go away.

Bingo! Its going back to basics. When people walk into the gym, they see a pile of lifting eqpt. As weird as it seems, it hasn't been until recently that I've seen more core stability / strength training at the gyms I frequent. There was one of those FAST programs at my last gym in FL focused on getting HS level athletes optimized for whatever sport they were pursuing, but all us muscle heads were all about "how big are my lats" and all that. Back to basics. Another part of this is that most gyms have all the eqpt, but not the facilities or room to do things like dynamic warm-ups and stuff like that. Unless you've got someone in there who does have a clue this overall view, everyone has the mindset of training by bodypart. Not that its a bad thing - but you end up neglecting the basic stuff again.

I'm learning...

 

[Sassy69]

Glen - question on the overhead squats & "do them often" --

Chatting w/ another member I was given an outlined program to run for awhile -- 3 days / week (e.g. MWF):

5 min cardio warm up
10-15 min dynamic warm up
some static stretches
Full body workout:
- A squat move (5x5 4x8, 3x10, or whatever -- this may be a "work up to")
- A press move (e.g. bench)
- A push move (e.g. rows)
- Some upper back / rotator work (light)

When you say do overhead squats 'often' - is this a candidate for 3x/week in the position of "A squat move"?

 

[asdfzxcv]

Glen - question on the overhead squats & "do them often"

When you say do overhead squats 'often' - is this a candidate for 3x/week in the position of "A squat move"?

I would just use the overhead squats as a warm-up prior to either back squats or front squats.When you first start doing overhead squats it is hard to hold your balance with an empty bar,let alone weighted.

 

[cuthroat]

Damn...16" arms? Thats pretty impressive. Probably bigger then mine...lol.

 

[carlsuen]

i guess u could juggle them if u feel overhead squatting 3x a week is too much..

mon - back squat
wed - front squat
fri - overhead squat

but of cuz this is advice/opinion(whatever u wanna call it) based on the lifting culture here on the training board where 90%of it's population squat 3 times a week.. so it's entirely up to u..

regarding strengthening the glutes and hams.. i think it's probably one of the most neglected muscles ever.. i'm starting to stall on my squats.. and reason i think is weak hams and glutes.. when i squat heavy i can only feel my quads working and nothing else.. so i'm in my third week of SLDL and RDL's.. which makes me feel so good in my legs, and the occasional soreness of cuz.. so CS basically covered everything.. GM's and SLDL/RDL would do u tonnes of good..

and on behalf of the training board " get the FUCK away from the smith machine! "

btw.. my gf is at that age but not an avid fitness freak like u.. i think she's hawt.. but to know ur stats are somewhere near hers.. u must be down right smokin'!

 

[Sassy69]

Damn...16" arms? Thats pretty impressive. Probably bigger then mine...lol.

That's a tape measure but you can't see it I guess -- 15 1/2 " not pumped. It gets bigger after chest day.

From a few weeks ago:

(My approach is distract 'em w/ the guns so they don't look at the buns... )

 

[carlsuen]

i literally said out loud.. "oh my fucking god!"

but it still wouldn't deter my view of scaning u up and down.. hehe..

 

[Sassy69]

i guess u could juggle them if u feel overhead squatting 3x a week is too much..

mon - back squat
wed - front squat
fri - overhead squat

but of cuz this is advice/opinion(whatever u wanna call it) based on the lifting culture here on the training board where 90%of it's population squat 3 times a week.. so it's entirely up to u..

regarding strengthening the glutes and hams.. i think it's probably one of the most neglected muscles ever.. i'm starting to stall on my squats.. and reason i think is weak hams and glutes.. when i squat heavy i can only feel my quads working and nothing else.. so i'm in my third week of SLDL and RDL's.. which makes me feel so good in my legs, and the occasional soreness of cuz.. so CS basically covered everything.. GM's and SLDL/RDL would do u tonnes of good..

and on behalf of the training board " get the FUCK away from the smith machine! "

btw.. my gf is at that age but not an avid fitness freak like u.. i think she's hawt.. but to know ur stats are somewhere near hers.. u must be down right smokin'!

Yes I know, I know - Smith machine = pussy. That's why I'm here asking questions so I can jettison the horrid thing from my life.

And in line w/ my whole lower back thing - need to just get the ol' caboose / hammies going --- these are definitely my lagging body parts and if I had any remote intention of pursuing a national show I seriously need a year of solid work there.

But I will say --- "age is for pussies" -- if you accept, you will look like you accept it. If you fight it tooth & nail, even if you have to rely on the Smith Machine for a while, it will treat you well...

 

[Sassy69]

btw some of these pix also show my ass / ham issues -- even at 7% bf how do you have a draggy ass???

 

[carlsuen]

Yes I know, I know - Smith machine = pussy. That's why I'm here asking questions so I can jettison the horrid thing from my life.

And in line w/ my whole lower back thing - need to just get the ol' caboose / hammies going --- these are definitely my lagging body parts and if I had any remote intention of pursuing a national show I seriously need a year of solid work there.

But I will say --- "age is for pussies" -- if you accept, you will look like you accept it. If you fight it tooth & nail, even if you have to rely on the Smith Machine for a while, it will treat you well...

FYI.. u ARE one u know

maybe it's just age catching up? lol.. jk! but i think ur ass looks fine and hawt to me! u made my day

 

[silver_shadow]

GMs are really good to develop core strength as well.
oh and BTW, i'm an ass guy and that's a nice ass
and another thing... mr smith sucks dogs balls.

 

[BiggT]

great pics....with the overhead squats, generally when learning them you would probably want to do them as a 'warm-up' on M-W-F. This is because of the learning curve, you'll be using ridiculously light weights compared to what you'd squat or front squat, so if you make them a main lift, you may see loss of muscle temporarily due to the drastically slashed load......doing them as a warm-up on all three days gives you the frequency and 'practice' and you can add weight each and every time and not worry about it affecting things overall because for a couple months at least it will be 'relative' light weight for you.

If I could make a suggestion on pressing, I'd make 2 of the days standing overhead days, maybe one push presses and one strict presses, then make the other remaining day a bench day if you'd like......standing overhead work activates core muscles and stabilizers most people had no clue even existed if they are accustomed to seated shoulder work.

 

[Sassy69]

great pics....with the overhead squats, generally when learning them you would probably want to do them as a 'warm-up' on M-W-F. This is because of the learning curve, you'll be using ridiculously light weights compared to what you'd squat or front squat, so if you make them a main lift, you may see loss of muscle temporarily due to the drastically slashed load......doing them as a warm-up on all three days gives you the frequency and 'practice' and you can add weight each and every time and not worry about it affecting things overall because for a couple months at least it will be 'relative' light weight for you.

If I could make a suggestion on pressing, I'd make 2 of the days standing overhead days, maybe one push presses and one strict presses, then make the other remaining day a bench day if you'd like......standing overhead work activates core muscles and stabilizers most people had no clue even existed if they are accustomed to seated shoulder work.

Thx for the clarification -- so are we expecting to be starting w/ the weighted straight curl bars vs an Oly bar for these? I guess maybe if I am tipping backwards on the push up part....

 

[BiggT]

I'd try the olympic bar...and snatch-grip it, a good, solid snatch-grip has the bar between 6-8 inches over your head, so it'll be a fairly wide grip. A tip is to try to imagine pulling the bar apart with your hands, it gives added stability.

To add to this...you could practice with a broom stick at home just to get comfortable with the movement. The bar should be behind your head (this flexibility may take time to develop, as people with strong presses and extensive training backgrounds that don't include the olympic lifts tend to be tight in the shoulder girdle initially).....again, try to imagine "ripping the bar apart" with your hands, it will tighten up the lats and give you a great sense of overall stability.

 

[BiggT]

** I added to the above post, Sassy**

 

[Sassy69]

Thx biggt -- I'm still watching some of the videos on that - gonna practice some. Very glad I have high ceilings in my basement!

 

[cuthroat]

awesome pictures, I like the guns... My legs have always been my week point. Good luck!

 

[Sassy69]

Thx cut! Biceps are "my gift" (well I actually busted my fucking ass to develop those in 2000 & have the tendonitis to prove it...)

OK -- so tonite was my first run at this stuff. The program is as follows:

General approach: 3x/week, at least 1 day between each session & cardio on the opposite days.
- 5 min cardio
- 10-15 min dynamic warmup
- static stretching
- 3 x 10 squat move --- warm up w/ overhead squats, then a variation of std squat
- 3 x 10 press move --- e.g. std bench press -- anything upper body is preceded by a rotator cuff warm up
- 3 x 10 pull move - e.g. rows
- upper back / shoulder work
- abs
20+ min cardio

7/12/06 (Wed):
===========
5 min elliptical warmup
10 min step mill for dynamic warmup -- side steps, side kicks, rear kicks, calf raises, knee raises, butt kicks, etc.
10 min static stretches
overhead squats:
- 20 lb EZ bar: 20/10 x 3 -- mostly for form
- 30 lb EZ bar: 30/10 x 2 -- form still good
- 40 lb EZ bar: 40/10 x 2 -- form still good
- squat bar: 40/10 x 2 -- yay! didn't tip over!
ATF Squats w/ 10 lb plates under heels:
- bar/15
- 10/15 = bar + 20 = 60 lb
- 20/15 x 2 = bar + 40 = 80 lb
Rotator cuff warm up -- cable in / out: 5/20(4) x 2
flat bench press - a la PL -- elbows close in, press from lower
- bar/15
- 10/15 = bar + 20 = 60 lb
- 25/15 x 2 = bar + 50 = 90 lb
Cable side laterals: 5/6 x 6
Abs:
- Needsize Abs: 15 x 3 (decline bench, decline crunches hold each contraction for 5 ct)
- fitball abs alt lower abs, upper abs: 25 + 25 x 3
- cable kneeling crunches + obliques: 140/10 + 10 x 3
Post cardio: 10 min stepper (HIIT) + 10 min elliptical

 

[BiggT]

Good to see the overhead squats went well, you should start a journal here.

 

[carlsuen]

yeah.. i've joined EF for a year and i've seen NO FEMALES posting a journal here.. it's all over at girl talk.. (grunts)..

 

[Sassy69]

yeah.. i've joined EF for a year and i've seen NO FEMALES posting a journal here.. it's all over at girl talk.. (grunts)..

LOL - I do have a journal there - I'm sporadic on that right now w/ my travel & stuff. I'll see how things settle in the next few weeks and get a complete program going.

Thx for everyone's input tho. Its a lot of fun training like this - very fast & basic, gives me more time also for cardio which is a big part of my program for fat cutting. Honestly I'd love to drop 20 lb right now and part of that is going to be muscle.