Not sure how anyone could still be a self-respecting left-winger knowing this

[brownbrown]

exactly. MM makes the perfect argument for what is wrong with the system. Unfortunately, instead of blaming the system and the politicians who made it that way, it's easier to blame the rich.

Who is bank rolling the current Presidential Candidate? 16 people have funded over 80% of Romney campaign.
Who pays the lobbyist?
Who benefits from no corportate regulations?
Yes its the politicians..... Bought by the lobbyists... Paid for by the ultra rich..

DrOiD BioNiC EF App!

 

[musclemom]

I agree, but it sounds like MM feels like taxpayers owe something to everyone who had it rough growing up. Sounds like a good way to start a cycle much like the one we've got going now.

I don't know. Maybe I took that post the wrong way.

Okay, try it this way: EXCLUDING people who have disabilities AND people who just need some assistance to get past a bad patch (and plenty of people do go on some form of assistance for a brief time and then get off, or only go on it to get medical coverage for their kids, shit like that). Just talking about the "lifers", those who grow up in it and see it as a way of life, in that department the welfare system is just as fucked up as the penal system.

People can't see a way out or any other way of life. People like lifetime welfare recipients and repeat offenders need counseling and training, to be pointed in the right direction and given an opportunity to actually work. And no, programs like that AIN'T everywhere nor is it easy to find and if you can find them at all there's insufficient funding for them and they're already full indefinitely.

You got XYZ years on welfare you think employers fall over themselves to hire you? "Ummm, Ms. Smith why is your resume blank and you have no employer references ..."

Oh, so work at McDonalds, take anything, right? What part of my stepdaughter making $8.64/hr. for 40 hrs. a week got her food stamps cut to $16.87 did you miss? Welfare benefits get cut when you make money and they don't care if you're making a living wage or not. So you get to be destitute and homeless working 40 hrs. a week at slightly above minimum wage for a year or so until you can get a work history to get a job making a few dollars an hour more.

 

[zwhit]

Okay, try it this way: EXCLUDING people who have disabilities AND people who just need some assistance to get past a bad patch (and plenty of people do go on some form of assistance for a brief time and then get off, or only go on it to get medical coverage for their kids, shit like that). Just talking about the "lifers", those who grow up in it and see it as a way of life, in that department the welfare system is just as fucked up as the penal system.

People can't see a way out or any other way of life. People like lifetime welfare recipients and repeat offenders need counseling and training, to be pointed in the right direction and given an opportunity to actually work. And no, programs like that AIN'T everywhere nor is it easy to find and if you can find them at all there's insufficient funding for them and they're already full indefinitely.

You got XYZ years on welfare you think employers fall over themselves to hire you? "Ummm, Ms. Smith why is your resume blank and you have no employer references ..."

Oh, so work at McDonalds, take anything, right? What part of my stepdaughter making $8.64/hr. for 40 hrs. a week got her food stamps cut to $16.87 did you miss? Welfare benefits get cut when you make money and they don't care if you're making a living wage or not. So you get to be destitute and homeless working 40 hrs. a week at slightly above minimum wage for a year or so until you can get a work history to get a job making a few dollars an hour more.

My post had nothing to do with you or your step daughter's situation.

 

[musclemom]

My post had nothing to do with you or your step daughter's situation. I was asking if you thought taxpayers owed something to every kid that had it rough growing up.

I think American citizens have a basic human responsibility to enable their fellow humans to improve their lives. If that means increasing taxes to create better programs to help the impoverished get the hell out of the situation, then so be it. My family pays about $270 a year in taxes on defense and $40 a year for food stamps. I'll gladly pay as much on programs that enable people to live lives of dignity that are productive and bring them joy.

My stepdaughter's situation is a perfect, real life example of what people who are living in poverty face trying to get out of that condition. Be that as it may, here is what I believe is right and fair and I would be more than happy to pay the taxes to see it happen (you can just skip to the bolded parts, I just included the excerpt part for context):

“The Economic Bill of Rights”

Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union

It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

 

[brownbrown]

I think American citizens have a basic human responsibility to enable their fellow humans to improve their lives. If that means increasing taxes to create better programs to help the impoverished get the hell out of the situation, then so be it. My family pays about $270 a year in taxes on defense and $40 a year for food stamps. I'll gladly pay as much on programs that enable people to live lives of dignity that are productive and bring them joy.

My stepdaughter's situation is a perfect, real life example of what people who are living in poverty face trying to get out of that condition. Be that as it may, here is what I believe is right and fair and I would be more than happy to pay the taxes to see it happen (you can just skip to the bolded parts, I just included the excerpt part for context):

X2

A few bad Apples does not ruin the bunch.
"United" states of America.
Not "Individuals" of America.

DrOiD BioNiC EF App!

 

[zwhit]

I think American citizens have a basic human responsibility to enable their fellow humans to improve their lives. If that means increasing taxes to create better programs to help the impoverished get the hell out of the situation, then so be it. My family pays about $270 a year in taxes on defense and $40 a year for food stamps. I'll gladly pay as much on programs that enable people to live lives of dignity that are productive and bring them joy.

My stepdaughter's situation is a perfect, real life example of what people who are living in poverty face trying to get out of that condition. Be that as it may, here is what I believe is right and fair and I would be more than happy to pay the taxes to see it happen (you can just skip to the bolded parts, I just included the excerpt part for context):

This is why i edited that post. I was hoping to avoid this argument.

 

[zwhit]

X2

A few bad Apples does not ruin the bunch.
"United" states of America.
Not "Individuals" of America.

DrOiD BioNiC EF App!

So you think the system isn't being abused?

 

[EnderJE]

Yay! Here we go again! On one side, Horatio Algers. On the other side, the evil corporation!

 

[nimbus]

So you think the system isn't being abused?

every system is abused; you're going to have to do a better job than that if you want to discredit a program

 

[EnderJE]

every system is abused; you're going to have to do a better job than that if you want to discredit a program

But why do that when snide remarks and innuendo work so well?