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NEWBIE don't be afraid of Tren!!
- Thread starter Realgains
- Start date
My point here was not that other steroids are harm free but that there are potentially serious side effects that are documented from using trenbolone in equivalent doses commonly used. A review of medline did not reveal any studies for other non-17aa anabolic agents that showed as serious sides. I am not saying do not use tren(I do) I am simply saying, go into it with your eyes wide open and have all the information available. Once again I will credit nandi12 over on trieda for doing this research:
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There have been a number of posts recently claiming things like "fina is the safest AS you can do" "fina is not liver toxic",
"fina is not hard on the kidneys", "fina IS hard on the kidneys" etc. Despite all these assertions nobody has posted any evidence one way or the other to support their claims.
This is surprising since there are a wealth of data from animal studies on the toxicity and adverse effects of tren. Many are summarized in an excellent paper at
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jec...ono/v23je03.htm
Here are just a few of the studies mentioned in that report. You can read them and decide how potentially toxic you think tren is:
Male castrated rats weighing 65 - 75 g each were given daily s.c doses of 0, 0.02, 0.1, or 0.5 mg TBA as a solution in sesame oil for 10 days after castration. At sacrifice on day 11, dose-related increases were seen in the weights of muscolo levator ani (maximum +250%), prostate (maximum +1400%), and seminal vesicles (maximum+2500%) in all groups. In this experiment TBA showed distinct anabolic and androgenic activity that was 5 times higher than that of testosterone and 20 times higher than that of 17-ethynyl-19-nor- testosterone (Schröder, 1971b)
For a 100kg (220lb) human these dosage correspond to 0, 27mg, 130mg, 660mg per day
In another study:
Groups of 4 male and 4 female domestic pigs (Sus scrofa) were fed diets containing 0, 0.1, 2, or 20 ppm TBA (equivalent to 0, 4, 80, or 800 µg/kg b.w./day TBA, respectively) for 14 weeks.
(note: these doses correspond to 0.4mg, 8mg, 80mg per day in a 220lb human)
There were dose-related decreases in blood levels of testosterone and estradiol in males in all dosed groups (both maximum -95%, significant); progesterone was markedly decreased (maximum -99%, significant) in females in the two highest-dose groups. In the same groups, there were dose-related changes in the absolute and relative weights of the liver (maximum+30%, significant), uterus (maximum -50%, significant), kidney(maximum +25%, significant), and testis (maximum -55%, significant). In the highest-dose group changes were observed in the weights of the pituitary (-15%, significant) and seminal vesicles (+280%,significant). There was an increase in thyroid weight at all three dose levels (maximum +20%, not significant).
Histopathological examination showed the following dose-related abnormalities in the 2 and 20 ppm groups: in the liver, enlargement of the hepatocytes with associated ground glass appearance of the cytoplast; in testes, moderate to complete interstitial cell atrophy (with normal spermatogenesis within the seminiferous tubules);
Yet another study:
Groups of 64 male and 64 female Swiss albino CFLP mice, weighing 22 - 25 g each, were given diets containing 0, 0.5, 1.0, 10 or 100 ppmTBA (equal to 0, 0.004, 0.09, 0.86, or 8.6 mg/kg b.w./day TBA for males, respectively, and 0, 0.005, 0.10, 0.96, or 9.5 mg/kg b.w./day TBA for females, respectively) for 95 - 104 weeks (the test was endedwhen survival was 20% in males or females in the control group). After13 weeks 12 mice/sex were killed. At that time significant increases were observed in the absolute and relative weights of the kidneys in males and females at 100 ppm (20 - 40% increases). Significant decreases were seen in the weights of the spleen of top-dose females (-20%) and significant increases were seen at 1.0, 10, and 100 ppm inmales (+25%).
Terminal gross- and histopathological examination showed an increase in liver nodular hyperplasia and dose-related tumours in the male dose groups;these increases were statistically significant at the two highest doses. The incidence of liver tumours was also increased in females in the highest-dose group (8/52 versus 4/51 in controls). There was an increase in incidence of hepatocyte vacuolation in males in the100 ppm group. In 100 ppm females, gross pathological examination showed an increase in the incidence of enlarged and swollen kidneys, accompanied by a marginal increase in the incidence of nephritis.
Dozens more summaries of studies like these can be found at the website above.
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There have been a number of posts recently claiming things like "fina is the safest AS you can do" "fina is not liver toxic",
"fina is not hard on the kidneys", "fina IS hard on the kidneys" etc. Despite all these assertions nobody has posted any evidence one way or the other to support their claims.
This is surprising since there are a wealth of data from animal studies on the toxicity and adverse effects of tren. Many are summarized in an excellent paper at
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jec...ono/v23je03.htm
Here are just a few of the studies mentioned in that report. You can read them and decide how potentially toxic you think tren is:
Male castrated rats weighing 65 - 75 g each were given daily s.c doses of 0, 0.02, 0.1, or 0.5 mg TBA as a solution in sesame oil for 10 days after castration. At sacrifice on day 11, dose-related increases were seen in the weights of muscolo levator ani (maximum +250%), prostate (maximum +1400%), and seminal vesicles (maximum+2500%) in all groups. In this experiment TBA showed distinct anabolic and androgenic activity that was 5 times higher than that of testosterone and 20 times higher than that of 17-ethynyl-19-nor- testosterone (Schröder, 1971b)
For a 100kg (220lb) human these dosage correspond to 0, 27mg, 130mg, 660mg per day
In another study:
Groups of 4 male and 4 female domestic pigs (Sus scrofa) were fed diets containing 0, 0.1, 2, or 20 ppm TBA (equivalent to 0, 4, 80, or 800 µg/kg b.w./day TBA, respectively) for 14 weeks.
(note: these doses correspond to 0.4mg, 8mg, 80mg per day in a 220lb human)
There were dose-related decreases in blood levels of testosterone and estradiol in males in all dosed groups (both maximum -95%, significant); progesterone was markedly decreased (maximum -99%, significant) in females in the two highest-dose groups. In the same groups, there were dose-related changes in the absolute and relative weights of the liver (maximum+30%, significant), uterus (maximum -50%, significant), kidney(maximum +25%, significant), and testis (maximum -55%, significant). In the highest-dose group changes were observed in the weights of the pituitary (-15%, significant) and seminal vesicles (+280%,significant). There was an increase in thyroid weight at all three dose levels (maximum +20%, not significant).
Histopathological examination showed the following dose-related abnormalities in the 2 and 20 ppm groups: in the liver, enlargement of the hepatocytes with associated ground glass appearance of the cytoplast; in testes, moderate to complete interstitial cell atrophy (with normal spermatogenesis within the seminiferous tubules);
Yet another study:
Groups of 64 male and 64 female Swiss albino CFLP mice, weighing 22 - 25 g each, were given diets containing 0, 0.5, 1.0, 10 or 100 ppmTBA (equal to 0, 0.004, 0.09, 0.86, or 8.6 mg/kg b.w./day TBA for males, respectively, and 0, 0.005, 0.10, 0.96, or 9.5 mg/kg b.w./day TBA for females, respectively) for 95 - 104 weeks (the test was endedwhen survival was 20% in males or females in the control group). After13 weeks 12 mice/sex were killed. At that time significant increases were observed in the absolute and relative weights of the kidneys in males and females at 100 ppm (20 - 40% increases). Significant decreases were seen in the weights of the spleen of top-dose females (-20%) and significant increases were seen at 1.0, 10, and 100 ppm inmales (+25%).
Terminal gross- and histopathological examination showed an increase in liver nodular hyperplasia and dose-related tumours in the male dose groups;these increases were statistically significant at the two highest doses. The incidence of liver tumours was also increased in females in the highest-dose group (8/52 versus 4/51 in controls). There was an increase in incidence of hepatocyte vacuolation in males in the100 ppm group. In 100 ppm females, gross pathological examination showed an increase in the incidence of enlarged and swollen kidneys, accompanied by a marginal increase in the incidence of nephritis.
Dozens more summaries of studies like these can be found at the website above.
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Realgains said:
Silent Method
New member
The uterus issue being true was my point. You said no sides at all, and I'm just being picky. IMO, if used responsibly, tamoxifen poses little more danger to us than tylenol.Realgains said:
Can you elaborate on this? Estrogenic in what sense? In what tissues?Realgains said:
You need to be careful trying to extrapolate the results in postmenopausal women to men.
In men lowering estrogen with aromatase inhibitors is associated with reductions in HDL but no change in LDL levels (1). The salient quote from this study is:
"We conclude that in men, physiological levels of E2 are important in maintaining plasma levels of HDL cholesterol, especially the HDL2 fraction."
Tamoxifen administration on the other hand has little effect on raising HDL levels (2). To quote from this study:
"Tamoxifen decreases serum cholesterol (S-cholesterol) level about 10% and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (S-LDL) 15-20%,but in most studies it has increased serum triglyceride levels and had little effect on serum high-density cholesterol (S-HDL)"
I would not necessarily expect tamoxifen to offset the negative effects of aromatase inhibitors on serum HDL and LDL levels, since it seems incapable of raising the HDL lowered by blocking aromatase.
(1)J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Apr;78(4):855-61
Physiological levels of estradiol stimulate plasma high density lipoprotein2 cholesterol levels in normal men.
Bagatell CJ, Knopp RH, Rivier JE, Bremner WJ.
Medical Service, Seattle Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Washington 98108.
(2)Breast Cancer Res Treat 2000 Oct;63(3):225-34
Serum lipid levels during and after adjuvant toremifene or tamoxifen therapy for breast cancer.
Joensuu H, Holli K, Oksanen H, Valavaara R.
Department of Oncology, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland. [email protected]
I also think it is irresponsible to make statements like this with absolutely no evidence to support them. There are no studies as far as I know on the effects of tren on human kidneys.
You would be doing readers a much greater service by simply directing them to the link posted by jboldman and letting them decide for themselves. The animal studies demonstrate than tren can exhibit both liver and kidney toxicity, as well as a spectrum of other deleterious effects.
The dosages used in the studies covered a broad range; some lower and some higher than what bodybuilders use.
H
HighIntensity
Guest
alright guys my 2 2cents
Tren is most likely not healthy for human consumtion, much like any steriod. But facts are facts we are a different breed, we are on this board because we take risks to achieve body perfection.
So while on fina or any riod for that matter just be heads up.
IMOP 37.5- 50 mgs of tren dialy is fine for growth potential, the more tren you do the more risks you take.
WATER WATER WATER, go out and buy bottles and bottle of water, drink all day long....
Green T as well three to five cups a day
ALA- just 2 much proof of how effective it is, take it daily 600mgs can be enough
Cranberry Extract- do a search on the web for kirkman labs cranberry Ect. its only 40 bucks and is great stuff...hey I don't give a fuck if people tell me cranberry does nothing for kidneys, im takeing it...for 40 bucks why not
I am in week 6 of a 14 week cycle, my pee is clean and clear...no problems thus far.
just take it safe
Tren is most likely not healthy for human consumtion, much like any steriod. But facts are facts we are a different breed, we are on this board because we take risks to achieve body perfection.
So while on fina or any riod for that matter just be heads up.
IMOP 37.5- 50 mgs of tren dialy is fine for growth potential, the more tren you do the more risks you take.
WATER WATER WATER, go out and buy bottles and bottle of water, drink all day long....
Green T as well three to five cups a day
ALA- just 2 much proof of how effective it is, take it daily 600mgs can be enough
Cranberry Extract- do a search on the web for kirkman labs cranberry Ect. its only 40 bucks and is great stuff...hey I don't give a fuck if people tell me cranberry does nothing for kidneys, im takeing it...for 40 bucks why not
I am in week 6 of a 14 week cycle, my pee is clean and clear...no problems thus far.
just take it safe
JG1
New member
Did tren last cycle @ 75mg/day using Component TH converetd with A's kit. I'll never try it again. The side effects were just too bad.
Some of the side effects I got were lactating nipples, dark foamy urine (despite drinking 2 gallons water daily), very constricted throat (felt like there was a vice grip on it), and severe lung pain (thought I had pneumonia). The lung pain progressed and got so bad it hurt whenI breathed, I had to go to the doc and get chest X-Rays which turned out negative for pneumonia...also had a resting heart rate of 120bpm, stopped the fina that day and the pain eventualy went away after about 5-6 days.
I loved the results I got from tren, but the lung pain was just too much for me...never again.
Some of the side effects I got were lactating nipples, dark foamy urine (despite drinking 2 gallons water daily), very constricted throat (felt like there was a vice grip on it), and severe lung pain (thought I had pneumonia). The lung pain progressed and got so bad it hurt whenI breathed, I had to go to the doc and get chest X-Rays which turned out negative for pneumonia...also had a resting heart rate of 120bpm, stopped the fina that day and the pain eventualy went away after about 5-6 days.
I loved the results I got from tren, but the lung pain was just too much for me...never again.
tee
New member
Nice post. I agree with it all except the gyno part. I had the onset of gyno during week 5 of a tren ONLY cycle. I had to cut my cycle short because of it. I realize that it is rare, but it did happen to me. Anyone that gets swollen nips better stop the cycle immediately because there isnt anything thats proven to stop/block it out there that I know of. (Vitex, RU-486, Winny.....may help)
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