Myth's dispelled after 2 cycles

[nolin]

Well there's nothing like trial and error to validate or dispell myths. I'm in the middle of my second cycle and have learned a lot from my limited experiences thus far. Here are some of the things I've learned and myths I no longer adhere to.

1) My first cycle was deca @ 400mg a week and Test enanthate @ 500. I was on Ldex and still got bloated as hell, conclusion:
Deca bloats the fuck out of me and those that say deca doesn't bloat are full of shit

2) Some say things don't kick in til' week 4 or 5 with slow esthers, my experience: I went from 190 to 201 in 3 weeks and had pumps from hell!!!! Not to mention strength, conclusion: 4 to 5 weeks my ass!!!

3) Some say don't do cardio if you're bulking, I gained 26 lbs in 8 weeks and was a fat fuck, albeit some water wieght but I had to cardio my self into oblivion afterwards to get rid of the fat. From now on I will always do cardio or move very fast between sets to get an anaerobic/aerobic workout.

4) Your lipid profile will be destroyed and your blood pressure will go through the roof if you do any 17aa stuff. This may be true, but I used Niacin, red rice yeast and a host of other things to keep it in check and my lipid profile was better after the cycle. Conclusion: an ounce of precaution = a pound results when it comes to your health

5) My second cycle is Test and Tren. I started Test enanthate @500 mg per week and Tren @ 75 mg Eod the first 2 weeks. I didn't really feel Tren until I switched to 50mg ED, 3 days later......Holy shit! For me ED DOES make a difference.

6) It's been suggested that you can't cut and bulk at the same time....entering week 4 of my Test/Tren cycle and I've lost 2% bf and gained a half inch in my chest and arms. Also my waist has shrunk a half inch and I'm looking more tight by the hour. Also I'm on Swole cats diet and system which includes cardio. My conclusion: For me it is now possible to get bigger and get cut, Halleluah!!!!!

7) Tren and Test, or roids in general will make you a mean moody bastard? At the start of week 3 of my present cycle I got the distinct feeling I was flying. I feel absolutely great, on cloud nine,lovin' life. I'm completely exhilirated and it has a lot to do with getting results from hard work and seeing goals as achievable and not just pipe dreams. I feel like an alpha male, proud to be a man and feelin' it. If some people do act like assholes maybe they're not comfortable with feeling manly or they use it as an excuse.

So that's what I've learned so far, and some of what I have said will probably get some people pissed or call me full of shit. All I know is that all of the knowledge that you accumulate is just a guideline, in the end you have to be a guinea pig and learn what works for you. I hope this helps someone.

 

[Athernigy]

4) Your lipid profile will be destroyed and your blood pressure will go through the roof if you do any 17aa stuff. This may be true, but I used Niacin, red rice yeast and a host of other things to keep it in check and my lipid profile was better after the cycle. Conclusion: an ounce of precaution = a pound results when it comes to your health

Never heard niacin helping the lipid profile, can you site where you read this?

-sk

 

[nolin]

Do a search on Niacin under realgains name and you'll find some informative stuff

 

[raider2124]

Bro your gear kicks in faster on your first few cycles then your body adapts to it. That is why most say 4-6 weeks to start seeing the effects.

 

[nolin]

Ok

Ok then, but it would be good for a newbie to know that they will feel things much sooner. I know I was shocked at the results that soon because no one ever said it's different for a newbie

 

[billyd0812]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said a lot of things are generalites. Each individual reacts different ways to certain things. Thats why I like the saying "LISTEN TO YOURE BODY"..........billyd

 

[ROLGOR]

Great idea posting your observations bro. I would like to point out that tren does not build up in the body sufficently until 2-3 weeks, even up to 4 for some people. I would suggest that your conclusion on ed vs eod is made with flawed logic. The important thing is you are finding what works for you and it's cool your shareing.

 

[Lift Chief]

Bro i think a lot of stuff you are saying is dead on, but the results do depend on the person. For me i did not feel EQ/EN until week 4. So some stuff i think is more subjective. But i think that is good info on your experiences.

 

[Andy13]

Alpha male, huh.....

 

[SuKY_GeNeTiCs]

I am curious what your stats are nolin??? Profile states you are an ecto....

 

[V-SHAPE 2]

SOOO true about switching tren to ED, at 75mg eod I was hardly feeling it, then at 37.5 ED made a world of a difference!!!!!!!

 

[Realgains]

NOLIN...

Just curiuos to know how much niacin you took and in what form....non flush or regular.

Did you get your liver enzymes checked while on niacin and 17aa roids?

How much red rice yeast did you take?

What was your hdl and ldl total cholesterol during the cycle or immediately after?

RG

 

[Tim_Bass]

Great man. I think more people should seriously make posts like this. This information has really helped a lot, and I appreciate it greatly.

The thing about the Fina sounds a little illogical to me. But I really don't understand why everyone has this conflict over the ED and EOD thing.

Personally, when I start Fina I am going to go with 50 ED homebrew, and that is what I'm going to stick with.

Thank you for taking the effort to post this! And good luck w/ your personal goals.

 

[nolin]

I am curious what your stats are nolin??? Profile states you are an ecto....

My stats are...... 5 11 190 9% BF. Over the summer I got up to 220 but my BF rose to 15%. I did a post cyle cutting phase and I'm presently doing a building/cutting phase to get to 6% BF or lower. The ecto part is the fact that i have long muscle fibers and I look lean even when at higher BF%. But I have learned how to make my body gain, without juice though I'd be fucked.

 

[nolin]

Alpha male, huh.....

Yea, ya know...other guys in the gym look at you, ask how you train, my girl friend get's thrown over on her stomach, fucked mercilessly, get's her hair pulled and likes it!!!! hehehehe, that's what I mean, got it?

 

[nolin]

NOLIN...

Just curiuos to know how much niacin you took and in what form....non flush or regular.

Did you get your liver enzymes checked while on niacin and 17aa roids?

How much red rice yeast did you take?

What was your hdl and ldl total cholesterol during the cycle or immediately after?

RG

I took 1500mg of no flush niacin and 1800 mg red rice yeast a day. I didn't get the liver enzymes checked but the lipid looked like this:

Before- Tsh thyroid=2.21

Cholesterol=221, 200 is normal

Triglyceride= 110

HDL=44
ldl=155
Chol/HDl ratio=5

After:
Tsh thyroid=1.36

Cholesterol=243, 200 is normal

Triglyceride= 62

HDL=57
ldl=173
Chol/HDl ratio=4.3

I know the LDL and overall level rose, but I think that's due to the high protien intake and fat intake. It seems that if you injest alot of fat, even monounsaturated it shows you have high LDL. But as the coversion begins from LDL to the other stages and then into triglycerides the profile improves. It's almost like the LDL and over chol level tells you how much fat you eat period, but if you eat mostly omega 3 and mono unsaturated fat your body processes it without trouble. I think that when people eat a lot of saturated fat and hydrogenated oils they have elevated LDL and low HDL and High triglycerides which all those in conjunction spell future CVD. My conclusion is that LDL and the overall matter but if you know the other apsects of your lipid profile are in order they don't matter as much. It also appears that niacin and red rice yeast helped me more with HDl than LDL. I also took tyler liver detox but didn't get the liver enzymes analyzed, sorry.

 

[bbkingpin]

Good Post. Thanks.

 

[Seth]

I would like to point out that tren does not build up in the body sufficently until 2-3 weeks, even up to 4 for some people. I would suggest that your conclusion on ed vs eod is made with flawed logic.

I don’t under stand this statement.
I thought that the half life of tren was under 48 hours, that is why you have to do it ED or EOD.
Wouldn’t that mean that it would build up in your system quickly?

 

[nolin]

I don’t under stand this statement.
I thought that the half life of tren was under 48 hours, that is why you have to do it ED or EOD.
Wouldn’t that mean that it would build up in your system quickly?

Yes but it wouldn't be at maximum consistent blood levels and it just takes time for your body top react. Some guys feel results within a week. For me it took 2 then of course the ED thing kicked it up a notch

 

[Andy13]

25mgEOD.gif

If fina has a 48hr half life (which is probably a high end estimation), it would reach max blood levels within a week; regardless if it is administered ED or EOD.

Andy

 

[Nelson Montana]

Some points are dead on. Some vary from individual to individual. Some are wrong.

If you got fat, your diet and/or training was off. You would have made better gains without aerobics.

The myth that a drug takes 4-6 weeks to "kick in" is patently ridiculous. A drug is active withn minutes of injection. You should see results in a week. If it takes 6-8 weeks you need to learn more about proper training.

Diet has almost nothing to do with cholesterol, other than Omega 3's will keep the ratio favorable. High overall levels are the result of many things, mostly genetic and what may be a suprise to some people -- thyroid efficiecy.

 

[JoNaThAnPeTeRs]

Nelson, i have seen in many posts that u are huge advocate of a sound, solid diet, yet u never have listed a diet that may help many out...could you list 2 diets...a bulking/musclebuilding diet, as well as a cutting diet...thanks bro...

 

[Nelson Montana]

No problem.


Bulking Diet: Eat more.


Cutting diet: Eat less.


Works every time.

 

[Fonz]

No problem.


Bulking Diet: Eat more.


Cutting diet: Eat less.


Works every time.

Thats actually not very specific.

What about Endo's or Ecto's?

The macronutrient breakdowns for them have to be VERY
specific. Specially endo's: Limit carb intake being the most important

Fonz

 

[Nelson Montana]

Not really Fonz.

If you're cutting, obviously carbs are the first to go since you still need adaquate protein and fat to grow muscle. But it still comes down to calories vs energy expended. And even Endo's need carbs -- just less.
Carbs affect thyroid function, ellimination, muscle fulness, energy levels, and prevent catabolism. They are not evil. It's just that they're easy to eat and quick to digest. Most overweight people simply eat too many carbs. But that doesn't mean you need a convoluted diet plan. Just get the fork out of your face!

 

[Fonz]

Not really Fonz.

If you're cutting, obviously carbs are the first to go since you still need adaquate protein and fat to grow muscle. But it still comes down to calories vs energy expended. And even Endo's need carbs -- just less.
Carbs affect thyroid function, ellimination, muscle fulness, energy levels, and prevent catabolism. They are not evil. It's just that they're easy to eat and quick to digest. Most overweight people simply eat too many carbs. But that doesn't mean you need a convoluted diet plan. Just get the fork out of your face!

Thats were the GI of a carb comes in.

Slow GI are the only way to go for endos or esle they'll never lose weight because of high insulin levels.

Fonz

 

[Nelson Montana]

Agreed. But no self respecting bodybuilder would have a meal of just high GI carbs!

That's where the whole GI gets overstated, IMO. If you eat mostly protein and include fat in each meal, GI is much less of a factor since the absorbtion of sugars will be slowed down by the presence of fat.

In the long run I don't think there would be a lick of difference in one years time between eating a compicated, nutrient timed, exactly measured ratio, low GI, every second planned out diet, or one that was just a sensible balance of wholesome foods.

 

[Fonz]

Agreed. But no self respecting bodybuilder would have a meal of just high GI carbs!

That's where the whole GI gets overstated, IMO. If you eat mostly protein and include fat in each meal, GI is much less of a factor since the absorbtion of sugars will be slowed down by the presence of fat.

In the long run I don't think there would be a lick of difference in one years time between eating a compicated, nutrient timed, exactly measured ratio, low GI, every second planned out diet, or one that was just a sensible balance of wholesome foods.

I do notice GI values.

Low GI foods give me lots of energy. High GI I feel sleepy really fast.

My brother........haha......he could down a quadruple hot fudge Sundae shake and still be running around...

He's got amazing insulin control.

Fonz

 

[wartime100]

Re: 25mgEOD.gif

If fina has a 48hr half life (which is probably a high end estimation), it would reach max blood levels within a week; regardless if it is administered ED or EOD.

Andy

I agree. How can something with such a fast acting ester take so long to build up to effective levels.

 

[Andy13]

That's where the whole GI gets overstated, IMO. If you eat mostly protein and include fat in each meal, GI is much less of a factor since the absorbtion of sugars will be slowed down by the presence of fat.

In the long run I don't think there would be a lick of difference in one years time between eating a compicated, nutrient timed, exactly measured ratio, low GI, every second planned out diet, or one that was just a sensible balance of wholesome foods.

I agree 100%..

What's the 1st law of thermodynamics?

Energy in = energy out.

GI index? Toss it out the window when you consume protein and fat with carbs.

But it really doesn't make a difference.. If you eat 5000 cals and expend 4000 cals, YOU WILL GAIN WEIGHT. It's that simple.

The one thing I disagree on is cutting the carbs over the fat.

Carbs will do (much) more for an individual on AAS than fat... This is my opinion.

I don't think fat people (or any other kind of people) "eat too many carbs.."

They simply eat too many calories..

When I cut, fat cals are the first thing to go...

Will carbs make you fat?

Yes.. But not if you are eating under maintenance cals...

Andy

 

[JoNaThAnPeTeRs]

so which would work best for a meso/endo such as Fonz and myself...

the 33/33/33, the 30/30/40, the 40/50/10, etc....protein/carbs/fats..

andy13, i myself am starting another cycle this monday of a gram of test/dbol/and deca...for a decent time...i am an endo/meso, i dont have a 6 pack now at all but with my shirt on i could lie and say i did and it is quite believable...how would u recommend i diet for this muscle building phase...i am trying to gain decent diet knowledge, it seems that i always hear keep the protein at 2 grams per lb, and the carbs high as well, but how high is the question...Mr. X's diet says to stay at 1.5 grams of carbs per lb, but that doesnt, to me, seem high enough during such a cycle...what is your take on diet, related to meso/endos....i dont worry about ecto cause i am farrrrrrr from one...

i once read an article by matarazzo, he said after the gym he and the pros would sit around, mainly guys like dillet, and bs about random things for hours and hours, and he felt his muscles getting flat, but guys like them stayed full(matarazzo is a classic ecto he states), i found that article interesting to say the least...


Nelson, im still waiting on some help from you...eating more you said to gain mass...fine...but then u critiqued someone for previously stating that they gained too much fat when bulking...because u said that obviously their diet was wrong....but eating more doesnt seem like much a solid diet to me...there has to be a method to the madness, correct? i think so at least...

 

[JoNaThAnPeTeRs]

No problem.


Bulking Diet: Eat more.


Cutting diet: Eat less.


Works every time.

so this is ur secret?? i am asking for help from you, in many other threads as well, and i find you to be very very unwilling to help someone else, at least myself...u seem very knowledgable, but you remind me of people that know alot, and hate helping others out in fear of that they might overpass your size, or whatever the reason may be...ive seen it a million times...

i dont get this comment really, i was asking a simple easy question that would have taken a couple minutes to type out and help me, and that would be that, i have seen many Mods and vets do this a million times, this comment seems to me to be super wise-ass......i truly would appreciate your help...if u dont want to or are gonna bust my balls, whatever it may be, cause you are in the KNOW and i am not, then give me the courtesy of not even responding...i hope u choose to help me, id be very appreciatory...

 

[Nelson Montana]

Fear you might overpass my 190 pounds? Hardly.

Jon, I wasn't being facetious, just succinct.

There are no secrets, that's my big secret. All diet plans are bullshit, my boy. Of course, I devote an entire chapter to this in my book and I'm not about to give every reason for how I've come to this conclusion in this format.

Diet articles are page fillers. After all the thousands of "expert" diets around. dont you think if one worked great everyone would be using it? It's all academic wordplay -- and what makes matters worse is when you get guys with a modicum of scientic knowledge who take themselves way too seriously. Dan Duchaine was a nutrition whiz, but he also knew it was all baloney in the real world.

I know how food affects the body. I studied everything there is to know about it but I'm not so pompous to believe I can redirect the laws of nature.

Bodybuilders need protein. I think you know that. They also need fat and carbs, but they're easy. So what's left? THE AMOUNT!!! That's it. Some people might do better on a little more of this, or a little less of that. If food and the understanding of nutrient manipulation mattered so much, how come guys in prison are ripped while some of these nutrition experts look like shit?

Preparing for a contest is one thing, but remaining as lean as possible on a daily basis is another. You wanna grow? Ya gotta eat! You wanna cut? Ya gotta go hungry.

If anyone gets fat, it isn't because they aren't doing enough aerobics, they're just not building enough muscle and eating too much food. Period.

 

[JoNaThAnPeTeRs]

Fear you might overpass my 190 pounds? Hardly.

Jon, I wasn't being facetious, just succinct.

There are no secrets, that's my big secret. All diet plans are bullshit, my boy. Of course, I devote an entire chapter to this in my book and I'm not about to give every reason for how I've come to this conclusion in this format.

Diet articles are page fillers. After all the thousands of "expert" diets around. dont you think if one worked great everyone would be using it? It's all academic wordplay -- and what makes matters worse is when you get guys with a modicum of scientic knowledge who take themselves way too seriously. Dan Duchaine was a nutrition whiz, but he also knew it was all baloney in the real world.

I know how food affects the body. I studied everything there is to know about it but I'm not so pompous to believe I can redirect the laws of nature.

Bodybuilders need protein. I think you know that. They also need fat and carbs, but they're easy. So what's left? THE AMOUNT!!! That's it. Some people might do better on a little more of this, or a little less of that. If food and the understanding of nutrient manipulation mattered so much, how come guys in prison are ripped while some of these nutrition experts look like shit?

Preparing for a contest is one thing, but remaining as lean as possible on a daily basis is another. You wanna grow? Ya gotta eat! You wanna cut? Ya gotta go hungry.

If anyone gets fat, it isn't because they aren't doing enough aerobics, they're just not building enough muscle and eating too much food. Period.

good post...now i understand your posts better...thanks bro...i totally agree...you have to see what works for you...

some things if u could answer if u have a chance...do you think aerobics(cardio) have a place in mass cycles??

what protein source is your favorite? i.e. shakes, steak, chicken, salmom, swordfish, tuna, etc.. i just got really hungry when i stated those...

what type of training scheme do you like?

thanks bro...talk to you soon, great post once again...

 

[Nelson Montana]

I like to get protein from as many sources as possible. But I won't eat Tofu.

I don't think aerobics have a place in any bodybuilding program.

 

[drveejay11]

Re: Re: Myth's dispelled after 2 cycles

Never heard niacin helping the lipid profile, can you site where you read this?

-sk

B3 (Niacin) has been shown for YEARS to be a great potent overall cholesterol reducer !!!!!!!!!!

IMHO: Every cycle should include:

B3: Cholesterol reducer, blood pressure reducer (aids circulation)

ALA: Liver detoxifier, protectant and anti-oxidant

Tylers Liver Detox Liver detoxifier, protectant and anti-oxidant

 

[JoBu]

I don’t under stand this statement.
I thought that the half life of tren was under 48 hours, that is why you have to do it ED or EOD.
Wouldn’t that mean that it would build up in your system quickly?

If we assume a half life of 48 hours, then your system levels level out within 8-10 days depending on what you want to call level. For an example...lets look at 100mg EOD:

This would be the "system level" assuming you take 100mg on day 0 and every other day from there with a half life of 48hours...

Day 0 - 100mg
Day 2 - 150mg
Day 4 - 187.5mg
Day 6 - 193.75mg
Day 8 - 196.875mg
Day 10 - 198.4375mg
Day 12 - 199.2188mg

As you can see, system levels rapidly increase over the first 4-6 doses and approach a 200mg maximum. The dose doesn't make a difference...you will approach 2X the dose within 8-10 days.

More to come on this tomorrow...I'm too tired to finish

JoBu

 

[jacshelb]

whatever it may be, cause you are in the KNOW and i am not, then give me the courtesy of not even responding...i hope u choose to help me, id be very appreciatory...

I don't think any one person is totally "in the know". That is, no matter how much a person learns, there will always be valuable perspectives and ideas from somewhere else. If you can't get the information you want one place, there may be a good chance of finding equal or better help somewhere else.

Jacob

 

[JoBu]

If we assume a half life of 48 hours, then your system levels level out within 8-10 days depending on what you want to call level. For an example...lets look at 100mg EOD:

This would be the "system level" assuming you take 100mg on day 0 and every other day from there with a half life of 48hours...

Day 0 - 100mg
Day 2 - 150mg
Day 4 - 187.5mg
Day 6 - 193.75mg
Day 8 - 196.875mg
Day 10 - 198.4375mg
Day 12 - 199.2188mg

As you can see, system levels rapidly increase over the first 4-6 doses and approach a 200mg maximum. The dose doesn't make a difference...you will approach 2X the dose within 8-10 days.

More to come on this tomorrow...I'm too tired to finish

JoBu

Okay...here's the rest...check it out

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196044

 

[Him1]

Posted by Nelson Montanaiet has almost nothing to do with cholesterol.

huh?