muscle increase while dieting

[Burning_Inside]

Body burns fat all day long huh?

Maybe if you're in a ketogenic state..other than that, you're burning glucose guys.

Can Mr.X or MS please come in and dispense some mass amounts of smack upon our asses please?

And blood drinker..like I said...Beginners.... But you have to look at the facts of physiology like Vegeta stated, and it IS the truth. your body is either in a catabolic, neutral or anabolic state. Muscle growth and fat loss do not happen at the same time during any of those phases.

 

[Vageta]

Yes your body does burn fat all day long. With the low carb craze it seems everyone has forgotten that the body is fully capable of burning fat without being in ketosis. Folks your body is highly capable of burning fat all day long without ever reaching a state of ketosis. If it weren't true then every single gram of fat you consumed would automatically be stored as fat. Then without ketosis how would you ever burn it off? And what off the ongoing cardio controversy? Do it in the morning to attack fat stores faster? If your body had to be in ketosis to burn fat why would there be any controversy in regards to cardio timing?

Ketosis is simply the state in which your body is forced to burn fat as it's "primary" source of energy because glycogen stores are completely depleted. It has no choice but to start producing ketones in order for the body to survive. When glycogen levels are sufficient it will burn them primarily, however it is still capable of burning fat. There would be no way for a person to burn bodyfat without inducing ketosis if this fact were not true.

How else are people losing weight on isocaloric diets and the such?

 

[dngu047]

Body burns fat all day long huh? Maybe if you're in a ketogenic state..other than that, you're burning glucose guys.

Need some proof? I've included it below...now sure it gets pretty damn technical but all you need to read is the first sentence "Adipose tissue is a major source of metabolic fuel" translation --> body fat provides lots of energy...it just happens that sure, it provides energy but then we eat food and replenish it again

Ok so from a theoretical perspective fat is burnt all the time...but getting back to the real world I've consistently agreed with all of you that significant fat loss and muscle gain does not happen at the same time (except maybe in beginners)

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Proc Nutr Soc 2000 Aug;59(3):441-6 Related Articles, Books


Sir David Cuthbertson Medal Lecture. Regulation of lipid metabolism in adipose tissue.

Samra JS.

Department of Surgery, Royal North Shore Hospital, St Leonards, NSW, Australia. [email protected]

Adipose tissue is a major source of metabolic fuel. This metabolic fuel is stored in the form of triacylglycerol. Lipolysis of triacylglycerol yields non-esterified fatty acids and glycerol. In human subjects in vivo studies of the regulation of lipid metabolism in adipose tissue have been difficult because of the heterogeneous nature of the tissue and lack of a vascular pedicle. In the last decade the methodology of study of adipose tissue has improved with the advent of the anterior abdominal wall adipose tissue preparation technique and microdialysis. These techniques have demonstrated that lipid metabolism in adipose tissue is finely coordinated during feeding and fasting cycles, in order to provide metabolic fuel when required. Lipolysis takes place both in extracellular and intracellular space. The extracellular lipolysis is regulated by lipoprotein lipase and the intracellular lipolysis is regulated by hormone-sensitive lipase. In pathophysiological conditions such as trauma, sepsis and starvation profound changes are induced in the regulation of lipid metabolism. The increased mobilization of lipid fuel is brought about by the differential actions of various counter-regulatory hormones on adipose tissue blood flow and adipose tissue lipolysis through lipoprotein lipase and hormone-sensitive lipase, resulting in increased availability of non-esterified fatty acids as a source of fuel. In recent years, it has been demonstrated that adipose tissue produces various cytokines and these cytokines can have paracrine and endocrine effects. It would appear that adipose tissue has the ability to regulate lipid metabolism locally as well as at distant sites such as liver, muscle and brain. In future, it is likely that the mechanisms that lead to the secondary effects of lipid metabolism on atheroma, immunity and carcinogenesis will be demonstrated.

 

[Par Deus]

Vageta is correct.

There are numnerous things that will alter the ratio of macronutrients used throughout the day, but there will pretty much always be a mixture.

 

[nugg]

Nugg

"The laws of physiology, as much of it as I've learned portaining to bodybuilding over the years, just simply don't allow for the gain of muscle mass AND actual loss, not displacement of fat, at the same exact time"

There are several studies that refute this- not all deal with bodybuiders however, it is not FACT- that you can't buid muscle and burn fat

In one study, obese, un-athletic women were asked to restrict food and lift weights. They averaged a weight loss of more than 35 pounds in three months and gained a lot of muscle.

JE Donnelly, T Sharp, J Houmard, MG Carlson, JO Hill, JE Whatley, RG Israel American Journal of Clinical Nutrition OCT 1993;58(4)

A second study , for which I am still looking for the study ref.

Claimed an increase of muscle 2.2kg in lbw and a reduction of body fat 4 kg in one month, all of this on a near starvation diet. 800 kcals per day.

 

[Vageta]

Nugg did you bother reading all the posts? I don't think anyone is arguing that a beginner can't break the percieved laws of physiology. We all know that a beginner can actually burn fat and gain muscle. All of these studies are on untrained individuals so the results are anything but surprising. Also these studies don't explain "how" this phenomenon happens, only that it does happen. It is theorized that the stress caused by weight lifting is so great on the body that it creates some hormonal environment that favors muscle gain and fat loss. My guess is that somehow stored energy(fat) is somehow preferred over ingested protein and thus it is spared. That way all protein ingested is used to build muscle and the body turns to stored energy to compensate. Thus we end up gaining muscle and burning fat.

If a study could be done that can nail down what exactly is triggered when a beginner begins to weight train, and then find a way to apply this phenomenon to a well trained athlete, then that is a study I would like to read.

 

[nugg]

agreed

I did bother to read all the posts, slow down...
I am only interested in good diet conversation but this is your exact quote

"It "IS" physically impossible to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. Your body can only be anabolic or catabolic, not both at the same time. Building muscle is anabolic and burning fat is catabolic so they can't exist together."

This is what I read after I gave it a second "and more thorough look

"If your body was in an anabolic state after your workout for 6 hours then goes back to catabolic for the next 12 hours, over time this could make a dramatic change to your body composition. Realize however that you aren't truly burning muscle and gaining fat at the same time. "

I was responding to the first half of your post, after re reading it I may have jumped the gun.

I am just stating that it is possible to lose bodyfat and gain muscle at the same time, no one has shown me a study to dissuade me from my stance. (I wish someone would)

 

[Vageta]

I think the biggest problem we all have is the perception of what the "same time" is. It is physically impossible for a still picture to animate. It is a static object. However if you move enough still pictures in a row it will give the perception of motion, even though it really isn't moving. Look at the animated smilies on this page. It looks as if they're moving but in reality it is a few frames of the same picture that are slightly changed and then looped. It gives the perception that the smiley is in motion when in reality it is not.

Same applies to weight gain and loss. I really don't think it is possible for the body to be anabolic and catabolic at the same time under normal hormonal situations. However it can switch between these phases multiple times a day and over the course of a few weeks you may be able to drop fat and gain muscle. Again this is just a perception looking at the big picture. If we could somehow simply do a test on our body at any given time that would show what it is doing we'd probably see that it's not doing both at the same time. However if we tested every 30 mins throughout the day we might find that it switches gears often and thus over time a slow body composition change is happening.

The problem is optimizing this timing. I don't know how long it takes to switch from anabolism to catabolism and vice versa. If studies could be done to figure out how long it takes to do so and how many times this can be done daily I'm sure there exists a way to essentially get rid of long bulking and cutting phases. Even if we figured out the optimal time for each phase of anabolism and catabolism to promote LBM gains and fat loss, the fact would still stand you aren't doing both simultaneously. It just seems that way when viewed as a larger picture.

As I theorized above maybe there truly is a way that the body can catabolize fat tissue to provide energy while anabolism is occuring. That would be the ultimate state to be in at all times. I don't think however it is something that a seasoned lifter can accomplish regardless of diet and exercise timing. It would probably be a very special hormonal state that is triggered when the body is first introduced to weight training.

Perhaps certain drugs can accomplish this state again. Oxandrolone is well known for building LBM while in a hypocaloric state as well as burning fat during a hypercaloric state. Both of these are supposed to be impossible yet they seem to happen. Perhaps this drug as well as others can promote this perfect hormonal state just like when you were new to weight training.

Believe me I'd love to find out that an experienced weight lifter can reach this perfect hormonal state without drugs. Unfortunately I still stand by my arguement that unless you're a beginner or using AS, this state is impossible to reach. That doesn't mean that you can't try alternating states of anabolism and catabolism to give the same result over a period of time. This is what I plan on doing after I reach my bodyfat goal. I will be alternating a bulk and cut cycle 1 week at a time to increase LBM while keeping my fat mass constant. At least this is what I want to try and accomplish. If it works I will most likely adopt this type of cycle throughout the year so I'm never in one phase longer than a week or so. Thus looking at my results over the coarse of a year I have effectively lost fat and gained muscle simultaneously.

 

[Jeus]

I've been meaning to ask; Exactly how is it possible to become stronger without muscle gains? Neurons adaption to heavier weights only works if muscles are bigger so that they can lift them. However much the CNS adapts to weight lifting, surely it's not possible to lift more without more muscle?

 

[Vageta]

Jeus, I'm not an expert on muscle physiology but I believe the reason is due to the body learning to work more efficiently with what muscle it already has. That as well as factors like increased tendon strength, etc...

Think of it this way. When you are a new weight lifter your body is not used to this phenomenon. When you lift a certain weight your muscles have to contract to move the weight. But because your muscles aren't used to this they aren't very efficient at it. Your CNS will adapt to this new stimulai by learning how to push this weight by recruiting more fibers. Therefore you are pushing more and more weight with the same amount of muscle due to increased efficiency within the muscle. Most of your strength increase in the beginning will happen this way. Soon your muscle themselves will begin to grow to accomodate this load, aka hypertrophy. Now you've got more muscle to work with and as your body learns to be more efficient with the new muscle you will get even stronger.

There are some sports, specifically ones with weight classes, that people want strength with no mass. By concentrating on CNS adaption(low reps, heavy weights) and not hypertrophy they can get much stronger without putting on much weight.