MattThe(Blasphemist)Sky Walker

[Steroid_Virgin]

One more time: In your cut and paste mania, you have helped disprove your case:

You posted: Protestant churches remained shrouded in silence while the Nazis were massively tormenting, torturing, imprisoning, deporting, enslaving and killing the Jews

You also posted: Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities

what is the difference?

At least understand what you are plagiarizing.

The only thing I was trying to prove is that the catholic church is no more responcible than any other group for the holocost.

The protestants knew what was going on the whole time and said NOTHING.

I gave you several reasons why the Pope used vague langauge (one was at the request of the Jewish Leaders)

I did not say the thoughts contained in my posts were my writings...

Like I said.. you would attack me, not my acertions.. I was right..

You called me a plagerist, and you said my words refuted their self, (you again distorted facts).

You make no arguement, typical with what I have seen from you in the past..

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I did not say the thoughts contained in my posts were my writings...

Like I said.. you would attack me, not my acertions.. I was right..

You called me a plagerist, and you said my words refuted their self, (you again distorted facts).

You make no arguement, all you do bullshit.. typical with what I have seen from you in the past..

I didn't attack you. I said the writings were plagiarized. You could at least reference your source.

How can you act under the auspices of having a discussion, and then present someone else's case as your own? Just give me the web sites and let me read it myself.

There has not been one single attack against you. I criticized the opinions of the writers, and the methods of how you obtained this information. Doesn't sound too personal.

Your response did not speak at all to my contentions about why Hitler glorified Luther, or my contention that Luther's Jew-hatred was because Luther was a Catholic. You totally ignored my side of the discussion.


Now, let's recount the posts:

You open with an attack on my position. To support your case, you cite some articles.

I respond by pointing out some of the weaknesses I perceive in your argument, and asserting some of my own points.

You respond by saying I was attacking you personally, and not even addresing a single point I made about your position. Bravo!

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Are you searching the net for an answer

 

[bignate73]

Are you searching the net for an answer

found one!!!

http://www.answerproducts.com/top.htm

 

[fistfullofsteel]

lurther, if i remember correctly also was the founder of the modern german language. can't get anymore german than lurther himself. ok, maybe william the conqueror but he was a catholic.

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

Your source (I doubt it was you) wrote: The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear.

"role was unknown" is hardly a defense. Perhaps the role would be clearer if the Vatican would not hide documents.

#1 The pope was asked to lay low by several Jewish Organizations.

This a very realistic and responsible thing to do at that stage.

#2 In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews; the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a 'special blessing' to the Pope 'for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy'; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason."

This obviously illustrates that the jews themselves did not take much offense to the vatican (which according to you was anti-semetic), if so, why would they make a larch cash donation.. Your fuzzy math doesnt add up to true historical facts.. I see, you feel as if the vatican lead the holocaust, yet the jews dont??


Later on, your source writes If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "

So, are you telling me, that the vicar of Christ was afraid of a regime? How does this compare with Jesus's courage on the face of Roman occupation.? Not too well, I think.

#1 Everyone was scared of Germany & Hilter at that time, inlcuding the Russians, and all the other european govt's.. It was hardly cowardly to be afraid of Hitler's regime.

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

This is cut and paste too matt... but none the less proves my point yet again..

Oh no wait, I forgot you're smarter than Einstien right?? (e=mc^2)
(read on)

The Holocaust was also anti-Christian. After Hitler revealed his true intentions, the Catholic Church opposed him. Even the famous Albert Einstein testified to that. According to the December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, Einstein said:

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

In another, similar statement, Einstein referred explicitly to the Catholic Church (Lapide, p. 251). This is an extraordinary testimony by an agnostic German scientist of Jewish heritage.

Want some more facts???

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

Not trusting the new regime, the Vatican signed a Concordat with the Reich on July 20, 1933 in an attempt to protect the Church's rights in Germany. But the Nazis quickly violated its articles. In Lent 1937 Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical "Mit brennender Sorge" (With burning sorrow) with the help of German bishops and Cardinal Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII). It was smuggled into Germany and read in all German Catholic churches at the same hour on Palm Sunday 1937. It did not explicitly mention Hitler or Nazism, but it firmly condemned the Nazi doctrines. On September 20, 1938, Pius XI told German pilgrims that no Christian can take part in anti-Semitism, since spiritually all Christians are Semites.

This is cut and paste too matt... I dont give a fuck about arguing with you, I'm proving to you, that YOU ARE WRONG.

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

Later on, your source writes If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "

So, are you telling me, that the vicar of Christ was afraid of a regime? How does this compare with Jesus's courage on the face of Roman occupation.? Not too well, I think.


Here are the REAL FACTS.. dispute these, or shut up.
(this is cut and paste matt)

Pope Pius XII was a diplomat and not a radical preacher. He knew that he first needed to preserve Vatican neutrality so that Vatican City could be a refuge for war victims. The International Red Cross also remained neutral. Secondly, he knew how powerless he was against Hitler. Mussolini could quickly shut off electrical power to Vatican Radio during his broadcast (Lapide, p. 256). Finally the Nazis did not tolerate any protest and responded severely. As an example, the Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps, including Blessed Edith Stein (Lapide, p. 246). Pius knew that every time he spoke out against Hitler, the Nazis could retaliate against the prisoners. His best attack against the Nazis was quiet diplomacy and behind-the-scenes action. According to The 1996 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (V8.01) under Pius XII, "Wishing to preserve Vatican neutrality, fearing reprisals, and realizing his impotence to stop the Holocaust, Pius nonetheless acted on an individual basis to save many Jews and others with church ransoms, documents, and asylum."


Pope Pius XII was not completely silent either, especially in his Christmas messages. His 1941 and 1942 Christmas messages were both translated and published in The New York Times (Dec. 25, 1941, p. 20 & Dec. 25, 1942, p. 10). To prevent retaliation, he did not refer to Nazism by name, but people of that era still understood him, including the Nazis. According to The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):

The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.

These are COLD HARD FACTS... now quit with the opinons.. and show me some facts.. Mr. Rhetoric

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

Matt, You can choose the bash the catholic church all you want, but that's all it is is bashing. You can defame past popes if that's how you get your jollies... Your lies and misconceptions and distortions only discredit you, and make you seem jellous of and hateful of one of the most respected organizations in the world. What is your religious background? Im sure it must be perfect just like everything else you are involved with eh? Catholics & the Church are not infallable, I never said they were... But I will not sit around and listen to people piss on my religon or the pope.
More so when it's all lies and distortions.

peace