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MattThe(Blasphemist)Sky Walker

S

Steroid_Virgin

New member
Matt: I dont know where you aquired that nonsence you regurgitate as fact.. but none the less I apologize for calling you an asshole, but you are very much wrong.. Let me dispell your claims one at a time..


Matt said:
How about another one? To be in Hitler's SS, it was strongly preerred that you were Roman Catholic. It gets better. Many high ranking Nazis were smuggled out of europe after the warunder Vatican passports.

Answer:
The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear. As Eugenio Pacelli (1876 - 1958), he was the Vatican's envoy to Germany in the 1920's. As the Vatican's secretary of state, he negotiated a Concordat with Germany in the 1930s. This granted Roman Catholics freedom of worship. However, the Church agreed to become much less politically active. He became pope in 1939 at the start of World War II in Europe.

The pope's policy of neutrality may have been the least worse course. If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "...the Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps..."

You likely have have a distorted view of Pope Pius XII because you have read Rolf Hochhuth's 1963 play, "The Deputy" in which the Pope was portrayed as coldly indifferent to the Jews.

There are a few facts that are generally accepted:

1)The phrase "righteous among nations" is a term which refers to non-Jews who helped saved Jews from the Nazis. It could be argued that Pius XII would certainly qualify for this honor, because he saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from death. One account estimates 750,000 lives saved. 7 Pinchas E. Lapide estimated 860,000.

2)Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- in his wartime Christmas messages and at other times. However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities.

3)Some Jewish groups, asked the Pope to remain neutral during the war so that he would be more helpful diplomatically.

4)The church did directly condemn the Nazi policy of murdering mentally and physically disabled Germans in the 1930's. The Nazi's discontinued the program for a while.

5)The Vatican hid 477 Jews during the war. Another 4,238 were hidden in church monasteries and convents.

6)The pope spoke to a few select officials in private, encouraging them to help Jewish victims.

7)In 1942, Pope Pius XII was preparing a statement condemning Nazi persecution of Jews. But he decided to not make it public because of events in the Netherlands. As noted above, Dutch bishops had protested against the exportation of Dutch Jews, with disastrous consequences.

8)"In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews; the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a 'special blessing' to the Pope 'for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy'; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason."

If you can disprove any of the facts I stated, go right ahead..

Chew on these for a while... I'll will rebute the other swill you call arguements when I have a moment...
 
My turn to go on the attack... Matt, since you are such a guru on the holocost, lets see what you know about the role PROTESTANTS played in the holocost...

The Roman Catholic church is not solely to blame for the Holocaust. Germany had more Protestants than Catholics "and we know that anti-Semitism was widespread among Protestants as well."

This is not a case of evil, because, in most cases, church officials "were convinced that they were doing God's work."

I'm afraid the same could be said for many Nazi officials.

See, the only way matt can argue is to distort facts...
 
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What is your religious background matt.. bet your a baptist right??
Here is a little tidbit on good old martin luther...

The specter of Martin Luther was a haunting presence in Nazism and was in attendance at the Holocaust. Numerous scholars have taken note of that fact. For example, Professor Robert J. Wistrich, one of the profoundest students of worldwide anti-Semitism, writes: "The seed of hatred sown by Luther would reach its horrible climax in the Third Reich when German Protestants showed themselves to be particularly receptive to Nazi antisemitism."

The Lutheran editor of the American translation of Luther's works comments: "It is impossible to publish Luther's treatise today . . . without noting how similar to his proposals were the actions of the National Socialist regime in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's." The Nazis would now and then pay tribute to their mentor by staging an event on a date or at a place associated with him. They declared, for example, that their first large-scale pogrom against the Jews in November, 1938 was a pious operation performed in honor of the anniversary of Luther's birthday.

To cite but one more example, the installation of Ludwig MŸller as Reich Bishop was conducted with great fanfare in the church at Wittenberg where Luther had preached. Hitler, in Mein Kampf, names Luther as one of the great heroes of the German people. The historian, Professor Friedrich Heer, is authority for the knowledge that Hitler "was prepared to concede that Luther had prepared the way for his own work." He quotes Hitler as saying, as early as 1918: "He saw the Jew as we are only now beginning to see him today." (Ominous.)

What was it that Luther offered that made him so attractive to the Nazis? It was a book-length treatise, On the Jews and Their Lies, in which he gave expression to his unbridled, not to say utterly maniacal, detestation of Jews, and which contained more than a hint of genocidal intentions toward them. Luther's vehement attacks on the Jews were frequently recalled and widely disseminated by the Nazis. The original edition of Luther's loathsome volume was exhibited in a special glass case at party rallies in Nuremberg.

In page after page of Hitler's ranting against the Jews in Mein Kampf, one soon comes to realize that echoes of Martin Luther are being heard. Julius Streicher, the chief party ideologist of anti-Semitism, argued in his defense at the Nuremberg trials that he had never said anything about the Jews that Martin Luther had not said four hundred years earlier.

No paraphrase or brief excerpts can give the full flavor of the seething hatred with which Luther assailed the Jews. It has to be read to be believed. He can hardly find words vile enough to describe what he apparently believes are creatures endowed with very little of human qualities. There is no malevolence, crime, immorality, and depravity he does not attribute to them. He even resorts to gross obscenities.

Luther is not satisfied merely to mouth all this vitriol. He calls on the civil authorities to implement some hideously cruel measures against the Jews. He recommends that their synagogues be burned. Their houses should be destroyed and they should be forced to live like Gypsies under one roof or in a stable. Their prayer books and Talmuds should be taken away from them. Their rabbis should be forbidden to teach, and they should be killed if they violate the prohibition. They should not be permitted to travel. They should be deprived of all their cash, silver, and gold. The young and strong, both men and women, should be forced to do hard, menial labor. If, after all this, the Christians still feel threatened, the Jews should be expelled from the land.

At times, Luther seems as if he is all but calling for a holocaust: "We are at fault in not slaying them."
 
I predict that Matt wont even try to make an argument, because facts scare him away from rational discussion... That or he will attack my facts as rhetoric, and assert his opinion as fact...

Maybe he can prove me wrong?
 
From one fact alone, noted by Richard Grunberger, and confirmed by numerous historians, it is possible to learn that the Protestant churches remained shrouded in silence while the Nazis were massively tormenting, torturing, imprisoning, deporting, enslaving and killing the Jews: "The Confessional Church of Prussia was the only Christian body in the twelve-year history of the Third Reich to protest publicly against the unspeakable outrages inflicted upon the Jews."
 
I'm not Baptist. never was. I guess you could call me disinterested now. I don't like Baptists; they rule the city I live in and I suspect it is they who got the bars closed at 2. Fuckers. Anyway....

OK, as to your Luther post: you attribute the following to him: "If, after all this, the Christians still feel threatened, the Jews should be expelled from the land. "

Kinda sounds like St Augustine saying that Jews must be allowed to "survive but never thrive". That's an old one, and it is right in line with Catholic Church beliefs throughout history. Luther did not intend to start his own movement. *Luther was a Catholic.* All Catholics hated Jews that much. Luther wasn't breakaway in that regard. That was a 1500 year old refrain. Do you even know what Luther's 95 Theses were about?

Hitler used Luther as a hero because:

1. Luther was a German. There are a lot of Lutherans in Germany, and even the non Lutherans could identify with him as a german.

2. Luther, a catholic, was held in high regard by Germans, and he spouted a message that was in accordance with Hitler. But in the 1500's, all Catholics spouted this message. Luther the Catholic was hardly different. There were no Protestants in Luther's time. They came after he was gone. Luther the Jew hater was a Catholic and a German, giving him broad appeal to all germans.



Onward...as to your defense of the Vatican.

Your source (I doubt it was you) wrote: The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear.

"role was unknown" is hardly a defense. Perhaps the role would be clearer if the Vatican would not hide documents.


Later on, your source writes If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "

So, are you telling me, that the vicar of Christ was afraid of a regime? How does this compare with Jesus's courage on the face of Roman occupation.? Not too well, I think.



Look, I appreciate the attention. But if your idea of a discussion is to cut and paste some else's writings, what is the point?
 
One more time: In your cut and paste mania, you have helped disprove your case:

You posted: Protestant churches remained shrouded in silence while the Nazis were massively tormenting, torturing, imprisoning, deporting, enslaving and killing the Jews

You also posted: Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities

what is the difference?

At least understand what you are plagiarizing.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
One more time: In your cut and paste mania, you have helped disprove your case:

You posted: Protestant churches remained shrouded in silence while the Nazis were massively tormenting, torturing, imprisoning, deporting, enslaving and killing the Jews

You also posted: Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities

what is the difference?

At least understand what you are plagiarizing.
Click to expand...

The only thing I was trying to prove is that the catholic church is no more responcible than any other group for the holocost.

The protestants knew what was going on the whole time and said NOTHING.

I gave you several reasons why the Pope used vague langauge (one was at the request of the Jewish Leaders)

I did not say the thoughts contained in my posts were my writings...

Like I said.. you would attack me, not my acertions.. I was right..

You called me a plagerist, and you said my words refuted their self, (you again distorted facts).

You make no arguement, typical with what I have seen from you in the past..
 
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Steroid_Virgin said:




I did not say the thoughts contained in my posts were my writings...

Like I said.. you would attack me, not my acertions.. I was right..

You called me a plagerist, and you said my words refuted their self, (you again distorted facts).

You make no arguement, all you do bullshit.. typical with what I have seen from you in the past..
Click to expand...

I didn't attack you. I said the writings were plagiarized. You could at least reference your source.

How can you act under the auspices of having a discussion, and then present someone else's case as your own? Just give me the web sites and let me read it myself.

There has not been one single attack against you. I criticized the opinions of the writers, and the methods of how you obtained this information. Doesn't sound too personal.

Your response did not speak at all to my contentions about why Hitler glorified Luther, or my contention that Luther's Jew-hatred was because Luther was a Catholic. You totally ignored my side of the discussion.


Now, let's recount the posts:

You open with an attack on my position. To support your case, you cite some articles.

I respond by pointing out some of the weaknesses I perceive in your argument, and asserting some of my own points.

You respond by saying I was attacking you personally, and not even addresing a single point I made about your position. Bravo!
 
Are you searching the net for an answer
 
lurther, if i remember correctly also was the founder of the modern german language. can't get anymore german than lurther himself. ok, maybe william the conqueror but he was a catholic.
 
Your source (I doubt it was you) wrote: The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear.

"role was unknown" is hardly a defense. Perhaps the role would be clearer if the Vatican would not hide documents.

#1 The pope was asked to lay low by several Jewish Organizations.

This a very realistic and responsible thing to do at that stage.

#2 In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews; the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a 'special blessing' to the Pope 'for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy'; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason."

This obviously illustrates that the jews themselves did not take much offense to the vatican (which according to you was anti-semetic), if so, why would they make a larch cash donation.. Your fuzzy math doesnt add up to true historical facts.. I see, you feel as if the vatican lead the holocaust, yet the jews dont??


Later on, your source writes If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "

So, are you telling me, that the vicar of Christ was afraid of a regime? How does this compare with Jesus's courage on the face of Roman occupation.? Not too well, I think.

#1 Everyone was scared of Germany & Hilter at that time, inlcuding the Russians, and all the other european govt's.. It was hardly cowardly to be afraid of Hitler's regime.
 
This is cut and paste too matt... but none the less proves my point yet again..

Oh no wait, I forgot you're smarter than Einstien right?? (e=mc^2)
(read on)

The Holocaust was also anti-Christian. After Hitler revealed his true intentions, the Catholic Church opposed him. Even the famous Albert Einstein testified to that. According to the December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, Einstein said:

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

In another, similar statement, Einstein referred explicitly to the Catholic Church (Lapide, p. 251). This is an extraordinary testimony by an agnostic German scientist of Jewish heritage.

Want some more facts???
 
Not trusting the new regime, the Vatican signed a Concordat with the Reich on July 20, 1933 in an attempt to protect the Church's rights in Germany. But the Nazis quickly violated its articles. In Lent 1937 Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical "Mit brennender Sorge" (With burning sorrow) with the help of German bishops and Cardinal Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII). It was smuggled into Germany and read in all German Catholic churches at the same hour on Palm Sunday 1937. It did not explicitly mention Hitler or Nazism, but it firmly condemned the Nazi doctrines. On September 20, 1938, Pius XI told German pilgrims that no Christian can take part in anti-Semitism, since spiritually all Christians are Semites.

This is cut and paste too matt... I dont give a fuck about arguing with you, I'm proving to you, that YOU ARE WRONG.
 
Later on, your source writes If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "

So, are you telling me, that the vicar of Christ was afraid of a regime? How does this compare with Jesus's courage on the face of Roman occupation.? Not too well, I think.


Here are the REAL FACTS.. dispute these, or shut up.
(this is cut and paste matt)

Pope Pius XII was a diplomat and not a radical preacher. He knew that he first needed to preserve Vatican neutrality so that Vatican City could be a refuge for war victims. The International Red Cross also remained neutral. Secondly, he knew how powerless he was against Hitler. Mussolini could quickly shut off electrical power to Vatican Radio during his broadcast (Lapide, p. 256). Finally the Nazis did not tolerate any protest and responded severely. As an example, the Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps, including Blessed Edith Stein (Lapide, p. 246). Pius knew that every time he spoke out against Hitler, the Nazis could retaliate against the prisoners. His best attack against the Nazis was quiet diplomacy and behind-the-scenes action. According to The 1996 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (V8.01) under Pius XII, "Wishing to preserve Vatican neutrality, fearing reprisals, and realizing his impotence to stop the Holocaust, Pius nonetheless acted on an individual basis to save many Jews and others with church ransoms, documents, and asylum."


Pope Pius XII was not completely silent either, especially in his Christmas messages. His 1941 and 1942 Christmas messages were both translated and published in The New York Times (Dec. 25, 1941, p. 20 & Dec. 25, 1942, p. 10). To prevent retaliation, he did not refer to Nazism by name, but people of that era still understood him, including the Nazis. According to The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):

The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.

These are COLD HARD FACTS... now quit with the opinons.. and show me some facts.. Mr. Rhetoric
 
Matt, You can choose the bash the catholic church all you want, but that's all it is is bashing. You can defame past popes if that's how you get your jollies... Your lies and misconceptions and distortions only discredit you, and make you seem jellous of and hateful of one of the most respected organizations in the world. What is your religious background? Im sure it must be perfect just like everything else you are involved with eh? Catholics & the Church are not infallable, I never said they were... But I will not sit around and listen to people piss on my religon or the pope.
More so when it's all lies and distortions.

peace
 
nothing wrong with using other sources to support your argument. i didn't read the whole thread so i really don't know the whole spiel.
 
p0ink do you even have any idea what we are discussing? or did you just feel like chiming in because you were bored?? Or felt like riding matts jock...

dont tell me I dont I understand what Im talking about, when you have no clue yourself.
 
I understand that it is fashionable to be anti-Catholic now because the Catholic Church runs counter to modern culture. It is fearless in speaking out against abortion, contraception, pre-marital sex, homosexuality, pornography, divorce, and a host of other things that our modern culture holds near and dear. (Things that we are being taught to “tolerate” by the media, by the way). It requires discipline from its faithful, and modern people do not like being told what to do. We like to be our own boss. We like to be freewheeling. It is all about me, me, me. This makes the Catholic Church a very easy target. If you were to rely on pop culture, as a practicing Catholic, I am more fringe now than a purple haired mohawk sporting homosexual with mutliple partners who practices scientology... lol.. it's pretty funny.. So be it..
 
cathwow.gif
 
Puc said:
cathwow.gif
Click to expand...

Funny, and I might say..one of the best movies of all time. Well that, Clerks and the all new Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back....lmao!
 
Steroid_Virgin said:
p0ink do you even have any idea what we are discussing? or did you just feel like chiming in because you were bored?? Or felt like riding matts jock...

dont tell me I dont I understand what Im talking about, when you have no clue yourself.
Click to expand...

have you read what matt was saying?? get back to me when you have.

i'm still waiting for that example my man..
 
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