MattThe(Blasphemist)Sky Walker

[Steroid_Virgin]

Matt: I dont know where you aquired that nonsence you regurgitate as fact.. but none the less I apologize for calling you an asshole, but you are very much wrong.. Let me dispell your claims one at a time..


Matt said:
How about another one? To be in Hitler's SS, it was strongly preerred that you were Roman Catholic. It gets better. Many high ranking Nazis were smuggled out of europe after the warunder Vatican passports.

Answer:
The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear. As Eugenio Pacelli (1876 - 1958), he was the Vatican's envoy to Germany in the 1920's. As the Vatican's secretary of state, he negotiated a Concordat with Germany in the 1930s. This granted Roman Catholics freedom of worship. However, the Church agreed to become much less politically active. He became pope in 1939 at the start of World War II in Europe.

The pope's policy of neutrality may have been the least worse course. If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "...the Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps..."

You likely have have a distorted view of Pope Pius XII because you have read Rolf Hochhuth's 1963 play, "The Deputy" in which the Pope was portrayed as coldly indifferent to the Jews.

There are a few facts that are generally accepted:

1)The phrase "righteous among nations" is a term which refers to non-Jews who helped saved Jews from the Nazis. It could be argued that Pius XII would certainly qualify for this honor, because he saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from death. One account estimates 750,000 lives saved. 7 Pinchas E. Lapide estimated 860,000.

2)Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- in his wartime Christmas messages and at other times. However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities.

3)Some Jewish groups, asked the Pope to remain neutral during the war so that he would be more helpful diplomatically.

4)The church did directly condemn the Nazi policy of murdering mentally and physically disabled Germans in the 1930's. The Nazi's discontinued the program for a while.

5)The Vatican hid 477 Jews during the war. Another 4,238 were hidden in church monasteries and convents.

6)The pope spoke to a few select officials in private, encouraging them to help Jewish victims.

7)In 1942, Pope Pius XII was preparing a statement condemning Nazi persecution of Jews. But he decided to not make it public because of events in the Netherlands. As noted above, Dutch bishops had protested against the exportation of Dutch Jews, with disastrous consequences.

8)"In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews; the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a 'special blessing' to the Pope 'for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy'; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason."

If you can disprove any of the facts I stated, go right ahead..

Chew on these for a while... I'll will rebute the other swill you call arguements when I have a moment...

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

My turn to go on the attack... Matt, since you are such a guru on the holocost, lets see what you know about the role PROTESTANTS played in the holocost...

The Roman Catholic church is not solely to blame for the Holocaust. Germany had more Protestants than Catholics "and we know that anti-Semitism was widespread among Protestants as well."

This is not a case of evil, because, in most cases, church officials "were convinced that they were doing God's work."

I'm afraid the same could be said for many Nazi officials.

See, the only way matt can argue is to distort facts...

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

What is your religious background matt.. bet your a baptist right??
Here is a little tidbit on good old martin luther...

The specter of Martin Luther was a haunting presence in Nazism and was in attendance at the Holocaust. Numerous scholars have taken note of that fact. For example, Professor Robert J. Wistrich, one of the profoundest students of worldwide anti-Semitism, writes: "The seed of hatred sown by Luther would reach its horrible climax in the Third Reich when German Protestants showed themselves to be particularly receptive to Nazi antisemitism."

The Lutheran editor of the American translation of Luther's works comments: "It is impossible to publish Luther's treatise today . . . without noting how similar to his proposals were the actions of the National Socialist regime in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's." The Nazis would now and then pay tribute to their mentor by staging an event on a date or at a place associated with him. They declared, for example, that their first large-scale pogrom against the Jews in November, 1938 was a pious operation performed in honor of the anniversary of Luther's birthday.

To cite but one more example, the installation of Ludwig MŸller as Reich Bishop was conducted with great fanfare in the church at Wittenberg where Luther had preached. Hitler, in Mein Kampf, names Luther as one of the great heroes of the German people. The historian, Professor Friedrich Heer, is authority for the knowledge that Hitler "was prepared to concede that Luther had prepared the way for his own work." He quotes Hitler as saying, as early as 1918: "He saw the Jew as we are only now beginning to see him today." (Ominous.)

What was it that Luther offered that made him so attractive to the Nazis? It was a book-length treatise, On the Jews and Their Lies, in which he gave expression to his unbridled, not to say utterly maniacal, detestation of Jews, and which contained more than a hint of genocidal intentions toward them. Luther's vehement attacks on the Jews were frequently recalled and widely disseminated by the Nazis. The original edition of Luther's loathsome volume was exhibited in a special glass case at party rallies in Nuremberg.

In page after page of Hitler's ranting against the Jews in Mein Kampf, one soon comes to realize that echoes of Martin Luther are being heard. Julius Streicher, the chief party ideologist of anti-Semitism, argued in his defense at the Nuremberg trials that he had never said anything about the Jews that Martin Luther had not said four hundred years earlier.

No paraphrase or brief excerpts can give the full flavor of the seething hatred with which Luther assailed the Jews. It has to be read to be believed. He can hardly find words vile enough to describe what he apparently believes are creatures endowed with very little of human qualities. There is no malevolence, crime, immorality, and depravity he does not attribute to them. He even resorts to gross obscenities.

Luther is not satisfied merely to mouth all this vitriol. He calls on the civil authorities to implement some hideously cruel measures against the Jews. He recommends that their synagogues be burned. Their houses should be destroyed and they should be forced to live like Gypsies under one roof or in a stable. Their prayer books and Talmuds should be taken away from them. Their rabbis should be forbidden to teach, and they should be killed if they violate the prohibition. They should not be permitted to travel. They should be deprived of all their cash, silver, and gold. The young and strong, both men and women, should be forced to do hard, menial labor. If, after all this, the Christians still feel threatened, the Jews should be expelled from the land.

At times, Luther seems as if he is all but calling for a holocaust: "We are at fault in not slaying them."

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

I predict that Matt wont even try to make an argument, because facts scare him away from rational discussion... That or he will attack my facts as rhetoric, and assert his opinion as fact...

Maybe he can prove me wrong?

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

bump for skywalker

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

why wont matt reply??

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

From one fact alone, noted by Richard Grunberger, and confirmed by numerous historians, it is possible to learn that the Protestant churches remained shrouded in silence while the Nazis were massively tormenting, torturing, imprisoning, deporting, enslaving and killing the Jews: "The Confessional Church of Prussia was the only Christian body in the twelve-year history of the Third Reich to protest publicly against the unspeakable outrages inflicted upon the Jews."

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

still waiting

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I'm not Baptist. never was. I guess you could call me disinterested now. I don't like Baptists; they rule the city I live in and I suspect it is they who got the bars closed at 2. Fuckers. Anyway....

OK, as to your Luther post: you attribute the following to him: "If, after all this, the Christians still feel threatened, the Jews should be expelled from the land. "

Kinda sounds like St Augustine saying that Jews must be allowed to "survive but never thrive". That's an old one, and it is right in line with Catholic Church beliefs throughout history. Luther did not intend to start his own movement. *Luther was a Catholic.* All Catholics hated Jews that much. Luther wasn't breakaway in that regard. That was a 1500 year old refrain. Do you even know what Luther's 95 Theses were about?

Hitler used Luther as a hero because:

1. Luther was a German. There are a lot of Lutherans in Germany, and even the non Lutherans could identify with him as a german.

2. Luther, a catholic, was held in high regard by Germans, and he spouted a message that was in accordance with Hitler. But in the 1500's, all Catholics spouted this message. Luther the Catholic was hardly different. There were no Protestants in Luther's time. They came after he was gone. Luther the Jew hater was a Catholic and a German, giving him broad appeal to all germans.



Onward...as to your defense of the Vatican.

Your source (I doubt it was you) wrote: The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear.

"role was unknown" is hardly a defense. Perhaps the role would be clearer if the Vatican would not hide documents.


Later on, your source writes If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "

So, are you telling me, that the vicar of Christ was afraid of a regime? How does this compare with Jesus's courage on the face of Roman occupation.? Not too well, I think.



Look, I appreciate the attention. But if your idea of a discussion is to cut and paste some else's writings, what is the point?

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

One more time: In your cut and paste mania, you have helped disprove your case:

You posted: Protestant churches remained shrouded in silence while the Nazis were massively tormenting, torturing, imprisoning, deporting, enslaving and killing the Jews

You also posted: Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities

what is the difference?

At least understand what you are plagiarizing.