MadCows 5x5

[JeSt3r]

Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

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Everyone's been asking me about this 5 x 5 thing im doing.... There are many variations, this is one variation of the 'true' 5 x 5 routine that MAdCow2 helped me work out (thanx a million bro). Here goes...

*********5 x 5***********
Bill Starr's 5x5 program is also a nice alternative for future use. It is an excellent program to add size and strength, over a period of 8-10 weeks.

This is slightly tweaked from Starr's original writeup:

I originally developed this tweaked variation on the 5x5 based on JohnSmith182's writeups on Meso. He is easily one of the most knowledgable strength coaches in the country so I'll paraphrase his words: This program is used by many athletes even at the most elite levels for at least part of the year. It is excellent at increasing overall strength. THE MAIN ISSUE IS THAT IS ALSO TOO GOOD AT INCREASING LEAN BODY MASS. Athletes who are close to their weight class limit often need to SEVERLY restrict their diets to avoid growing right out of their weightclass. Most of the gains appear during the final phase of the program as the body defatigues from the earlier volume phase.


Volume Phase 4 weeks - Deloading Period 1 week - Intensity Phase 4-5 weeks
PS-These first 4 weeks WILL wear your ass out if your doing it right.

M:
Squat 5x5 (3x3)
Bench 1x5 (1x3)
Row 1x5 (1x3)

W:
Squat 5x5 with 15-20% less than Monday (drop this lift)
Deadlift 5x5 (3x3)
Military 5x5 (3x3)
Pullups 5x5 (3x3)

F:
Squat 1x5 (1x3)
Bench 5x5 (3x3)
Row 5x5 (3x3)

Volume Phase - Weeks 1-4:
I use 5 sets of 5 reps at working weight standard (I don't count warmups) increasing the weight week to week and trying to set records in weeks 3 and 4. I try to focus on acceleration during these days. For exercises which I do twice a week I have a separate day which I perform a single set of 5 reps with the goal of setting records on the 3rd and 4th week for my best set of 5. For the squat I use Wednesday and utilize between 10-20% less than my working weight on the Monday workout - no goals for this. The main point here is the volume. Don't start the weights too high. Lower the weight if need be but get the sets and reps in - except where you are setting records. I also do a fair amount of warmups to keep my volume decently high on the single sets of 5 reps days.

Deloading Week - Week 5:
On week 5 DROP THE WEDNESDAT SQUAT WORKOUT, begin using the Intensity set/rep scheme (in parentheses), and keep the weight the same as your last week in the Volume Phase.

Intensity Phase - Week 6-10:
Everything is the same principal except that you use 3x3 and 1x3 setting records on week 9 and 10 (week 4 and 5 of this phase, still using rep scheme in parentheses). No Wednesday squatting. The important aspect of this phase is the weight increases. If you are so burned out that you need an extra day here and there that's okay. If you can't do all the work that's okay too. Just keep increasing the weight week to week.

Other Tweaks: You can be a little creative. I'm actually using this program right now but what I did was substitute inclines for military presses and I performed high pulls for the Volume phase and switched to the Sumo dead for the deloading and intensity phase. This allowed me to perform a bit of assistance work for my shoulders and rotator cuff as well as my quads. Keep in mind that this workout takes it's toll so don't throw in all kinds of garbage. I found that with the non-airconditioned gym I trained at the assistance work was almost non-existant in week 3 and 4. I also like to focus on speed on the 5x5 days. If you want to use bands and chains with this program those are the days to incorporate them.

Thoughts: It is very simple and incredibly effective. I think incorporating a focus on speed is important and this variation on the 5x5 allows one to fit it in relatively seamlessly as well as swap exercises and factor in any assistance work. One point - if you are squatting 3x per week in the volume phase and deadlifting one time throughout the whole program don't count on doing any major assistance work - throw in some occasional arm crap and some midsection work and that's it. The volume phase will also bury you if you run it too long and are an experienced lifter. The major problem people have with the workout is that they start too high in weight and can't successfully ramp up with proper volume. Beginning lifters might run a longer volume phase with much lighter starting weight than an experienced lifter who knows his strength and can regulate his intensity properly.

ok SO where does assistance work come in and in what amounts???

 

[wnt2bBeast]

first go around i would run it like it is..your bi's are getting hit 3 times per week with rows and pullups..

the only thing i would suggest (wait and see what madcow has to say about this) is you may want t use a close grip on your lower volume day (1x5 bench) that will hit your tris more as well as help your bench a lot more..

adding assistance to a routine thats loaded with compund work youll want to do it slowly..

 

[JeSt3r]

So what if i added in Reverse Close grip BP in on the first day for 1x5 for tris

 

[wnt2bBeast]

So what if i added in Reverse Close grip BP in on the first day for 1x5 for tris

my point was dont add it in...on monday when you do your bench work for 1x5 instead of using a normal wide grip use a closer grip and then when you bench on friday 5x5 use a normal wide grip..

 

[JeSt3r]

Hmmm thats actually sounding better than adding it in to be perfectly honest with you

oh yea another question for rows what kind should i do???
Bent Over correct?

another thing i was wondering was why did Cal (super_rice) substitute chinups for pullups?

 

[Madcow2]

Like wnt2bbeast said you arms are getting hammered anyway. There really is not much room if any for significant assistance work in the form of additional weight training exercises if the weights are set correctly. Generally someone looking to add arms can do barbell curls for 3x8-10 and tricept extensions for 3x8-10 you can do one on Fri and one on Monday. Although it's tempting to alter a style of the bench to hit the tris more, this workout is kind of predicated upon an identical movement on each of those days. So you could narrow grip the whole time or widegrip the whole time. Unless you've done tons of similar dual factor workouts before (and very very few here have) I'd resist the urge to customize it beyond adding the aforementioned arm exercises (or choose other good ones but only 1 for tri and 1 for bi) or substituting inclines for military on Wednesday. You'll be amazed how overloaded you are in weeks 3/4 if the weights are set correctly. Week 5 is like a weekend at a luxury Spa after that.

Now off days you can do non-weight training activity, that's fine and a big reason why this program fits nicely with athletic skill specific training. We aren't talking grueling 2-a-day football camp in 100 degree heat but a reasonable amount of activity.

 

[JeSt3r]

Like wnt2bbeast said you arms are getting hammered anyway. There really is not much room if any for significant assistance work in the form of additional weight training exercises if the weights are set correctly. Generally someone looking to add arms can do barbell curls for 3x8-10 and tricept extensions for 3x8-10 you can do one on Fri and one on Monday. Although it's tempting to alter a style of the bench to hit the tris more, this workout is kind of predicated upon an identical movement on each of those days. So you could narrow grip the whole time or widegrip the whole time. Unless you've done tons of similar dual factor workouts before (and very very few here have) I'd resist the urge to customize it beyond adding the aforementioned arm exercises (or choose other good ones but only 1 for tri and 1 for bi) or substituting inclines for military on Wednesday. You'll be amazed how overloaded you are in weeks 3/4 if the weights are set correctly. Week 5 is like a weekend at a luxury Spa after that.

Now off days you can do non-weight training activity, that's fine and a big reason why this program fits nicely with athletic skill specific training. We aren't talking grueling 2-a-day football camp in 100 degree heat but a reasonable amount of activity.

ok with that said...im going to keep it EXACTLY how you have it initially posted....and i will probally start in 2 weeks...due to the fact that i will be leaving for cancun for a week of partying on this upcoming monday....

but i will leave it untouched and i will post it much similiar like Cal has done...
if you dont mind Cal, Madcow and beast i would much appreciate your guys's imput on it once i get started thanks for all the help guys

 

[Madcow2]

I'll be glad to help. You can really add arms or swap military to incline. These are very common additions and substitutions - tried and true, they won't screw it up at all. I've just become kind of shellshocked because I remember a period when this program was new here where I had 5 different people in 3 days PMing me with changes they wanted to make (like creating a 3 day split from it and all kinds of stuff). It is very very hard to convince people used to BBing and the Weider Bullshit-Intuitive Training Principle not to screw with a program.

 

[JeSt3r]

maybe ill ad in some very low volume arm work during the intesity phase...but im going to keep the military because i want to hit EVERYTHING and i feel 5x5 2x a week on chest will be a little much for me ATM... thanks bro

 

[blut wump]

The second 5x5 in the week you can think of as a 1x5 but with 4 working warm-up sets of 5. It's not so bad that you should think of it as gruelling and it's very different to trying to do two standard bodybuilding blast-to-failure chest workouts. The program really does work.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

I'll be glad to help. You can really add arms or swap military to incline. These are very common additions and substitutions - tried and true, they won't screw it up at all. I've just become kind of shellshocked because I remember a period when this program was new here where I had 5 different people in 3 days PMing me with changes they wanted to make (like creating a 3 day split from it and all kinds of stuff). It is very very hard to convince people used to BBing and the Weider Bullshit-Intuitive Training Principle not to screw with a program.

whcih is prolly the reason that those routines dont yeild the kind of results they should..after a week or two the routine looks like something out of flex instead of the way it was laid out

 

[super_rice]

i think the biggest thing that everyone is trying to get at is to stop thinking of training as "tuesday, arms and back, saturday, triceps and chest" or whatever. 5x5 uses all the major compound exercises that will create growth over your entire body, and it does it as often as possible.

have your read any of the dual factor stuff on meso that madcow provided?

the reason why we don't overtrain on the program and the reason why it works is because of dual factor theory, and the way it enables us a template of how to load and deload the body and CNS to get maximal performance on a more systematic basis.

my advice is to learn all those movements and know how to do them with flawless form, because you will be doing them a helluva lot (which you should be).

honestly, do a couple of curls and work your abs hard in the 1st, 2nd, deloading, 6th, and 7th weeks. all the other weeks are record weeks. if you paid your dues on the record days - some days you'll be setting a couple of PRs (if this is your first time, like it was for me) so you'll not want to hang around and do 10000000 curls.

one problem i have with the program is that there is no speed only work. after finishing 5x5 i'm a lot stronger, but a lot less fast.

 

[blut wump]

There's a week's worth of reading mostly on various dual factor aspects and workouts here:
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/

The 3x3 by Korte would have you doing nothing but squat, bench and deadlift three times a week, all three lifts on the same day. Obviously that one is aimed squarely at powerlifters. This one by madcow seems like a version well-balanced for general strength throughout the body.

For anyone interested in learning more about dual-factor training and periodization, I'd recommend reading through some or all of those articles. I probably got the link from one of madcow's posts, anyway.

 

[Madcow2]

Deepquatter has a lot of good stuff. I ran Korte's program years ago - 1998-1999 maybe. That thing is a nightmare. Every workout is an event. I'd get through my squats and get on the bench which was like a vacation but in the back of my mind I always knew the deads were coming. It works very well and your core lifts are going to get really good and technically sounds with all the practice but it is very taxing and you leave the gym soundly beaten.

 

[mcr]

Is Wednesday supposed to be that much more volume than the other days? There are 20 sets in there, plus warm-ups (ok the 5 squat sets are lighter but they won't be a walk in the park). Given reasonable rest periods (3-4 mins between work sets maybe more for deads) and a bunch of warm-ups, this means somewhere between 1.5-2 hours in the gym? Is this correct, or should I be moving swifter between sets? I am very keen to do this program, but I am used to 40 mins each session with much lower volume than this. Please advise! Thanks.

 

[Madcow2]

The wednesday squats go fast and don't rachet up as fast in weight as the Monday workouts (if you start at 12% less you might finish at 18% less). These really warm you up nicely for the deads - although you still need to build to working set weight. I simply can't see over an hour and a half even on the heaviest day with time between sets. Warm ups go fast and you don't want to be doing high rep warmups, start with the bar and then a set of 5-6 with some light weight and then build with triples, doubles, and singles until you hit working weight. Take whatever time you need between sets. Record weeks you might need 5 minutes to get your last 2 sets in a 5x5 for the dead and squat.

 

[mcr]

Thanks bro, that makes sense.

I am in the middle of a training cycle right now. Once I'm done milking the gains from it, I'm going to switch up to your 5x5 method and follow it to the letter (no extra arm work either!). I will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again.

 

[Madcow2]

(no extra arm work either!).

LOL - feast or famine.

One day everybody wants to figure out how use the 5x5 but only train a bodypart once per week (can't be done). The next day, no one even wants to chance adding some curls in. I will say that the overall desire to change the program seems to be inversely related to the number of people who have put in some time using it and reported their results.

 

[super_rice]

i'm glad to have been part of the first guinea pigs from elite. hopefully more people will follow suit.

 

[mcr]

LOL - feast or famine.

One day everybody wants to figure out how use the 5x5 but only train a bodypart once per week (can't be done). The next day, no one even wants to chance adding some curls in. I will say that the overall desire to change the program seems to be inversely related to the number of people who have put in some time using it and reported their results.

I just like to follow a program without changing anything around (unless the program mandates it like WSB). I have made too many mistakes in the past taking someone else's program and bastardizing it, only to find that I messed up the program by "tweaking" it LOL.