Madcow 5 x 5 DOMS & Headaches

[Mandinka2]

Hey there - just completed week 2 of Madcows routine - some nice numbers coming on (170kg x 5 x 5 last night) but I am dead worried that I am overtraining - I'm really oversleeping all the time , feel tired and am having terrible headaches in the morning. Any help as I try for higher poundages in week 3 ? Oh yeh - I forgot I'm getting DOMS (but I always had them when I trained heavily) - also have put on about 2lbs in the 2 weeks.

 

[Madcow2]

You may get DOMS, you may not. Likely it will decrease the more you acclimate to this type of training and eventually disappear. The idea of the program is to acclimate for 2 weeks and then push really hard for 2. Hopefully you will only be in record territory next week and the week after. The whole premise behind the program is that it pushes you right to the edge of overtraining (called overreaching), after you deload the body will recover and adapt. The problem is that everyone's tolerances are different as is their training history, what will allow me to train for 4 weeks and overreach might bury you and what someone else does might burry me.

This is why so many cookie cutter programs focus only on intenisty (%1RM) and just make a basic 'least common denominator' type volume base - volume massively effects the workload equation. This is even true among elite calibur lifters with same weightclass, experience, and maximum lifts - one guy might be able to handle a lot more volume than another, just a personal thing although obviously they are both putting up the same weights so it doesn't mean anything really except in program design.

So anyway, this is why I have the program set for 5x5 on one day and 1x5 on another day (for M/F), tell people to start very conservatively, match records on week 3, and exceed on week 4. This tends to really only load them up for maybe 7-10 days and be more tolerable. Maybe this is too much for you right now just due to genetics and training history. You could either start lighter next time and/or use 1x5 protocols on the M/F for some lifts and possible 1x5 for the dead or some such (you could do 1x5 for everything but that might be too little to put you in overreaching - a lot closer to the novice/intermediate program which is linear single factor and designed to be tolerated for longer periods). It's really a continuous scale, the other way transitioning to 5x5 on M/F and adjusting weight selection or adding volume beyond that.

Anyway, if performance hasn't dropped yet, you should be okay. If it drops 10-15% for more than an odd workout, you need to deload. Use this first run as a method of getting a good idea of your base tolerance and then work of that for your next program by adjusting if needed. If you are getting stronger and gaining weight, it's impossible to call that overtraining. Maybe just not used to this type of program but if strength and muscle are increasing - you aren't hitting the wall yet - even if they stall it's not the wall (but dropping is).

Hope that helps shed some light and gives you some ideas what to look for. Already being 2 weeks in and seemingly getting solid results it would be a shame to pull the plug at this point. At a minimum you'll have an excellent idea on whether or not the program needs adjustment. You might even find some of these symptoms disappear. BTW - make sure you use the 2x deload protocol, don't risk the 3x in the case that you are already having issues.

 

[Mandinka2]

Uhhh I'm no quitter ... so the idea of DROPPING performance is out of the question ... I'm increasing my recovery time by 6 or so hours between the heaviest sessions (I use a 24 hr gym) ... I think you're correct in that I'm completely unused to this rep range and it's affecting me a little differently to what many trainers might use - to be honest I'm close to my goal for first run through of 400 x 5 x 5 on squats and prefer not to cut out until I make it. In any case I believe that low rep schemes will provide me with overall thickness which is always welcome - certainly my lats have grown.

On the 2x deloading protocol I hear ya - although it will be the first time I'll ever train with such low frequency - I'm also a little concerned about the thought of doing pull ups with 100lbs strapped on - perhaps I could increase the reps a little on this one ?

In any case I wish to thank you for a well designed program and for replying here.

 

[Madcow2]

So if you are near your goal, I'm kind of questioning if you started too heavy. For most people this kind of volume on the core lifts is a totally new thing and even if they set no records would generate quite a bit of growth. Here's an example of how the weight might be scaled week to week over the volume phase (everyone is different, this is a random back of the envelope setup so don't read anything into the rates and percentages). I can't help thinking that your "goal" should be in week 3 or even 4 if it's a lofty one. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4652618&postcount=211

If you set the weights too high, too early you may be pretty close to overreaching even now. Just watch your symptoms and especially the performance. If you drop negative (not just 1 bad workout which anyone can have), you need to deload.

Don't mess with the reps on the deload. The idea is the volume is down but intensity is high (%1RM) - note the effect of volume here as the slash in workload is staggering yet intensity is being increased (like I talked about the magnitude of volume's contribution to the workload calc). When intensity is high, you won't be able to handle a lot of reps but you'll still make progress while the body recovers (the amount of work just isn't enough to tax you too much).

Probably some good reads for you:
Training loads explained (some definitions and some calcs to give you an idea about how versions of this program manipulate workload): http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686 -EDIT - there's a link at the top too, after your read the post follow that link and see a much more elaborate explanation of these and more variables. These variables are what drives program design so it's very much worth your time.
Some more advanced info on deloading: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5088604&postcount=5

 

[Mandinka2]

When I said "goal" I meant for my first run through of the cycle - I've just started week 3 which is the first record week as I understood it - in fact I was incorrect - goal for week 4 is to do 385 x 5 x 5 on squats. I have previously done 375 x 10 x 1 (albeit at a 9lbs higher bodyweight) in squats without too much difficulty so I thought that I'd start in nice and easy at 340 x 5 x 5 ... and it was easy ... too easy in fact so i bumped it 20 lbs in week 2 (which was not fun but I got through).

ONe thing I need to mention is that I am squatting without either a cage or a partner (often at 2/3am) so if i fail i fail with me underneath - there is currently no alternative - hence I am anxious about poundages - I just go down slowly on squats. I cannot test 1RM and even triples will then present a problem - although I'm happy enough to keep adding to my poundages and worry about it in the next run through. Thanks for the links ... second one is vrey interesting indeed.

 

[Madcow2]

Okay, you're on the right track then. Don't worry too much about not having a rack or spotter - providing the floor is decent. Everyone should learn to dump heavy squats . Anyway, once you hit a grinding rep or know that failure is likely just stop or if there are more sets lower the weight a bit or make them doubles or whatever. If you are missing a number of reps, lower the weight and knock them out. Going to failure does nothing at the muscule level, you don't recruit more fibers, no magic occurs - the only thing that happens is your CNS bombs and this is a heavy tax because it's CNS fatigue that is the cause of overtraining rather than anything at the muscular level. There is a link here (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5088668&postcount=783) that goes into this in detail (NWLifter's posts) right on Darden's HIT forum - very very worthwhile understanding this. I know I'm feeding you a lot of links but these are really good summaries and a lot of this is super important to understand (yet very very few know it hence the amount of voodoo bullshit in weighttraining and bbing).

 

[Mandinka2]

Umm no problem with links - I see no reason why you should type this all out but from my reading of that last link he "NWLifter" advocates against using very low reps... I'm comfortable doing this myself for at least two cycles just to see what low rep schemes do to my structure but just think that it conflicts a little bit with the intensity section of the routine you outline.

 

[Madcow2]

Don't get too wedded to the idea of reps just being the number you do within a set. You have to consider volume (thinking about total time under tension within a workout is also helpful), as well as the total long term effect on hypertrophy. Rep ranges can work very synergistically when used over periods, the neural efficiency built using low reps will transfer strongly to capacity increases when one switches over to higher reps later. This results in much stronger hypertrophy gains over a period than if you just used the same set/rep scheme the whole time.

This touches on rep ranges and synergy in more depth in their specific relationship to hypertrophy (in a sense - absolutes in life and training are rare and generally not to be trusted): http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=50&postcount=5

This is an entire training theory piece that breaks down some stuff fairly nicely - it's a semi lengthy read but worth it when you get the chance. Probably better info than you'll find in a few years of reading these boards: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5116417&postcount=820

 

[eat big]

I've gotten headaches all the time recently. That is after I started doing 5x5. I never had headaches before I started doing the 5x5. I too find it easier to become overwhelmed in 5x5. I get much more tired and just feel like not going to the gym sometimes. But the more that I think about it, it is worth it because it is the best routine I've ever done. I do sleep more than ever. I do get headaches. But I have been making better gains than ever. If you think about it, once it gets hard, almost every rep of 5x5 is hard and that can be quite draining very fast. Although, I haven't been off of 5x5 in quite some time because I am still making gains. So it is hard for me to stop while I'm making gains.

 

[Madcow2]

The headaches and sleep are certainly possible signs of taxing the body. If you are continuing to get stronger past that point though you haven't passed the point of overreaching. Actually, if you are loading really hard you shouldn't be able to set records so there's another built-in safety margin. Just watch performance for a drop and maybe finess the volume a downward a bit to try it lower (i.e. more space between 1x5 days's sets, maybe on 5x5 you ramp the first 2 sets and then do 3x5 at working set weight, maybe more conservative weight selection in weeks 1/2). You could also try the single factor model (which is still very significant - way more compound lifts and workload than you see in almost anyone elses programs) and see how that works for you. If that pushes you into fatigue, it might be a better match workload wise - like I said it's not about who is able to tolerate the most work, it's about finding where your tolerance lies so you can optimally force adaptation. You don't win any prizes for workload. The varriance in tolerance is high so you get a peg on yours and realize that it will drift upward over time (everyone's does as they gain experience, they just start at very different spots).

Also, nothing works forever and I'd really think that no matter how successful this program is you should branch out into different rep schemes and address deficiencies with different exercises and targeted work. I kind of look at this as a good base/foundation program that you run for a while and return to on a semi-regular basis . Then again, if you are progressing strongly and are happy, it's hard to rationalize messing with someone.