Liver Helper Myth Destroyed

[Fonz]

Fonz, you don't know jack shit. Milk thistle does protect the liver because it forms a protective coating around the liver cells preventing any toxins or harmful drugs from entering the cell and causing damage. It also regenerates new liver cells. I've been on 2000+ mg of juice for 3 months and my liver enzymes were normal, and I've been juicing for 10 yrs. And you tell me it doesn't do anything? Studies have shown that it does!!! Maybe you should learn some more

Jesus!! I have met morons in my time, but you definately
take the cake......

You got it BACKWARDS you marsupial!!!!!

ALA is the ONLY SUBSTANCE THAT CAN Re-generate
DAMAGED hepatocytes.

Milk Thistle CANNOT. It may be able to stem the tide
somewhat, BUT its ultimately the body that re-generates
(if it can) the damaged liver tissue.

Now, go back to bumsville and go shoot some more of that
fake test.

Fonz

 

[Fonz]

Re: I didn't read the whole thread, but i will answer you Gman

Fonz is right (usually is, it's dangerous to say always )

I used milk tistle at a rate of 4500 mgr/day (15 caps of 300 mgr).
Liver values where up (as already posted on EF some time ago).
Now when doing L-reduced Glutathione liver values come back to normal even when doing 600 mgr Winny (injected... give me a break) and 350 mgr Ox, so almost 1 gr of 17AA's. What more do you want.

So yes, milk tistle is a waste of money. It just isn't strong enough.

True some liver protectors might interfere with the efficiency of the roids taken at the same time, but not that much. If this worries you take a bit more roids to compensate but protecting your liver should be the main concern here.

LOL Jeff....

Thanks for giving some real world results.

Fonz

 

[Fonz]

Ok, that felt good........

I was getting cranky again.(Too much work).

Fonz

 

[Rio 2001]

Since Glutamine contributes significantly to increase glutatione levels, wouldn't it be a substance to be remembered when we talk about liver protection?

 

[Silent Method]

Ulter, interesting abstracts. However, again, they are far to limited to conclude that milk thistle is entirely without worth for purposes.


Fonz, you state...

It <milk thistle> may be able to stem the tide somewhat, BUT its ultimately the body that re-generates if it can) the damaged liver tissue.

This is a far cry from your former statements, "it <milk thistle> does nothing, milk thistle won't do a thing, and it won't even stem the tide."

I have still seen no evidence that milk thistle WILL NOT help. I have seen much evidence that says it MAY help. In regard to liver protection, milk thistle may be as effective as using a garden hose to put out a house fire, especially compared to something as effective as ALA. Well, if my house is on fire and I'm stuck inside, I'm going to use everything I got to "stem the tide." If milk thistle helps me live a little bit healthier, a little longer, even helps just a little tiny bit, I'm going to use it. Likewise, untill I see real evidence that it is entirely without worth I will not discourage its use.

 

[snake98]

wheres the best place to get tylers??

 

[athlete03]

word

 

[Delinquent]

Here is the only place I know to get it

AF Store

 

[bigokie]

ALA?

Not sure exactly what ala is?

 

[Ulter]

Silent Method, The studies are too limited? You're joking right? The University researchers went through "525 references were found in the databases, of which 84 papers were retained for closer examination and 36 were deemed suitable for detailed analysis." And found that the studies lending credence to the myth of Milk Thistle "are mostly outdated and underpowered, do not enable any valid conclusions". Now I don't know where you did your research but if these Physicians in Switzerland went through 525 references I would say their work was not limited at all. It was very thorough.
No one can say that MT has NO benefit, it may have a little, but so does fenel and a number of vitamins. The point is that MT will NOT help your liver values while you're using AS. Go ahead and try it yourself. I did. Jeff_rys did. It doesn't work.

 

[Silent Method]

Ulter, "36 were deemed suitable for detailed analysis" means they looked at 36 studies for their conclusions. We could argue their methods, motivations, criteria, point of view, etc, etc forever. The data and conclusions in the abstracts are limited. You restated my entire point for me...

No one can say that MT has NO benefit

This IS my point, pure and simple. Someone DID say this and I think it was premature and unsubstantiated.

No evidence has been presented to support the claim that milk thistle will not help the liver of an AAS user in any way.

 

[Fonz]

Ulter, "36 were deemed suitable for detailed analysis" means they looked at 36 studies for their conclusions. We could argue their methods, motivations, criteria, point of view, etc, etc forever. The data and conclusions in the abstracts are limited. You restated my entire point for me...
This IS my point, pure and simple. Someone DID say this and I think it was premature and unsubstantiated.

No evidence has been presented to support the claim that milk thistle will not help the liver of an AAS user in any way.

You're beating a dead horse and you know it.

You're talking semantics, while we're talking
about FACTS.

However, keep going. The more discussion we generate
the better. as that is what it takes for people to think
in new directions.

Fonz

 

[Silent Method]

You're beating a dead horse and you know it.

You're talking semantics, while we're talking
about FACTS.

I sure feel like I'm beating a dead horse. BTW, semantics is a prerequisite for discerning fact.

Please sumarize the facts that prove irrefutably that milk thistle has no worth whatsoever for an AAS user.

I agree, the more discussion the better. The "new direction" I hope people will begin to think in IS that of fact rather than assumption.

 

[MaGilicuti]

I'm not familiar with ALA, where would one purchase this?

 

[Ulter]

525 references were found in the databases, of which 84 papers were retained for closer examination and 36 were deemed suitable for detailed analysis

If you think I restated your point you aren't reading this thread very well.

Where do you get the idea that they only looked at 36 studies. They looked at all 525 of them, then requested 84, then went over the ones with merit leaving 36. Of the 36 NONE of them showed that Milk Thistle was of any use for liver protection.
You are using Milk Thistle to protect your liver and proclaim it's worth yet you've never been tested. You have no idea if it's helping you or not.

 

[Jeff_rys]

Silent Method, do you read others posts?

I sure feel like I'm beating a dead horse. BTW, semantics is a prerequisite for discerning fact.

Please sumarize the facts that prove irrefutably that milk thistle has no worth whatsoever for an AAS user.

I agree, the more discussion the better. The "new direction" I hope people will begin to think in IS that of fact rather than assumption.

Here is proof for you:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63625&highlight=Lreduced

What more do you want???

 

[HappyFunBall]

liver

Doesn't your liver regenerate on its own anyway? All this anecdotal stuff like: my values were 200 then i took XXX and they dropped to 95... This is not science.

Your liver will return to normal values if you are healthy. I think taking supplements might be good, if they work, but don't count on it. If they were so great doctors would be prescribing them to patients with high liver values, wouldn't they?

 

[Silent Method]

Oh boy...

If you think I restated your point you aren't reading this thread very well.

Ulter, you stated..."No one can say that MT has NO benefit." Bingo. My one and only point. In fact, Fonz restated my point too - "It <milk thistle> may be able to stem the tide somewhat." Bingo again. It may, it may not. To proclaim absolute worthlessness without factual basis is wrong.

Where do you get the idea that they only looked at 36 studies. They looked at all 525 of them, then requested 84, then went over the ones with merit leaving 36. Of the 36 NONE of them showed that Milk Thistle was of any use for liver protection.

Read your abstract. They whittled through 525 studies and settled on 36 for detailed analysis. This is why I previously raised the points, what were their criteria? What were their motivating factors? What objective points of view guided their research? We could argue these forever.

Look, their conclusions may cast a shadow of doubt over the degree of milk thistles effectivness. But they do not come anywhere near supporting the idea that milk thistle is worthless.

Oh and Jeff_rys, keep trying bud. That in no way establishes irrefutable factual evidence regarding the worth, or lack their of, of milk thistle.

 

[Jeff_rys]

you see it wrong Silent..

i only post my personal experience. Meaning, what you say or what any study claims, i don't buy it.
Personal experience is the only way to go. No hear say.

Milk Tistle did nothing (NOTHING) for me, but if it works for you, then go ahead. I only want the best protection and i can proof this with my blood results. So proof you your saying with your blood results.

As for you Happy:
Quote: "If they were so great doctors would be prescribing them to patients with high liver values, wouldn't they?"

But they do prescribe "L-reduced Glutathione" and "Lysomucil" (Acetylcysteinum) and they do work. Now of course Ala and Tyler's do also work but are not available in Belgium.

You should really do a search for liver protectors. Acetylcysteinum is used when your liver is REALLY upset. It can be injected DIRECTLY in the vein for fast result when detoxifying the liver is needed. You start with 150 mg/kg bodyweight, mix this with 250 ml Glucose 5%.
L-reduced Glutathione exists also in a injectable form. This must be shot I.M.

 

[Ulter]

silent,

If your point is that Milk Thistle is of some miniscule benefit to your liver. I concede it may be. So does a glass of milk.
If that's your point you have no business on this thread in the first place. Because "some benefit" is not what people on this board use it for and you know it. They use it thinking it is going to protect their liver from the 17aa drugs they use, which it will not do. Fonz and Jeff_rys and I are trying to let people know that Milk Thistle will not protect their liver and you're going on and on arguing that there is no proof it has no benefit.
Don't tell ME to read the abstract. You are the one who said they only looked at 36 studies and now you're back pedaling and saying they "whittled" through 525. So what are you saying they went through them without looking at them? Oh sorry, whittled through them without looking at them. Your contribution here is of no value.

 

[Willyumyum]

Re: I didn't read the whole thread, but i will answer you Gman

Fonz is right (usually is, it's dangerous to say always )

I used milk tistle at a rate of 4500 mgr/day (15 caps of 300 mgr).
Liver values where up (as already posted on EF some time ago).
Now when doing L-reduced Glutathione liver values come back to normal even when doing 600 mgr Winny (injected... give me a break) and 350 mgr Ox, so almost 1 gr of 17AA's. What more do you want.

So yes, milk tistle is a waste of money. It just isn't strong enough.

True some liver protectors might interfere with the efficiency of the roids taken at the same time, but not that much. If this worries you take a bit more roids to compensate but protecting your liver should be the main concern here.

I take ALA anyway, but I was just curious if you have done any similar or heavier 17aa cycles and used ALA (or another liver protector) and had your enzymes tested?
If so, were the results better?

YUM

 

[nandi12]

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but I am surprised no one has addressed the study outlined below that suggests silymarin interferes with androgen receptor function:

: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403
Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclear localization of the receptor in
the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.

Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Mayo Graduate School, Mayo Clinic/Foundation, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.

A number of reports have shown that the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin (SM) is an effective anticancer agent. Agents with novel
mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of SM, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line, LNCaP, by arresting the cell cycle at the G(1) phase without causing cell death. This study further delineates the potential molecular mechanism by which SM and SB exhibit antiproliferative effects on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that SM and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2). Additionally, for the first time, we show that an immunophilin, FKBP51, is androgen regulated and that this up-regulation is suppressed by SM and SB. We further demonstrate that transactivation activity of the AR was diminished by SM and SB using gene transfer of PSA promoter and hK2 androgen-responsive element constructs. However, expression and steroid-binding ability of total AR were not affected by SM in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens using western blotting assay and immunocytochemical staining. This study provides a new insight into how SM and SB negatively modulate androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

 

[smokinghawk]

What the heck? MT's cheap at Wal Mart anyway, at $7 per bottle of 100 @ 175mg per.

Add that to Tylers, Radox, 1 gram of ALA, and you should be good togo. This is how I'll handle my D** interim.

 

[DeadLiftZ]

Missing the point...

It seems that there is a misconception that Milk Thistle is supposed to magically cure liver enzyme elevations, when in actuality a simple search on the web will show you that it's to be used as a PREVENTATIVE and not as a cure.

It's been suggested to use milk thistle in conjunction with, not after, aas use to regulate the elevation, not to somehow stop it.

It's also been stated that milk thistle doesn't have any side effects (hard to beleive, but the studies keep repeating this), meaning that if you can tolerate taking high amounts of the SILYMARIN extract contained within MT, you'll benefit.

And let's not neglect the kidneys... cranberry juice works well, but itsn't a cure.

Still curious to see where the studies are which disprove the effectiveness of Silymarin in rejuvinating - not regenerating - the liver.

 

[Silent Method]

Jeff_rys, sorry, forgot you were the perfect model of mankind by which we can base all our understanding of the science of pharmacology.

Ulter, keep that open mind bro. In the abstract you posted, they settled on 36 studies for detailed analysis - period. My point in this thread is that people should not issue a blanket statement regarding somethig without any proof whatsoever. You may feel that my contribution on this thread is of no value. I feel your contribution is of negative value. Big deal. This is called a debate.

Nandi12, good post. Maybe milk thistle has more negative impact than positive for our purposes. The particular study seems limited to the prostate, but it does make one wonder what impact it may have when tying to pack on some mass.

 

[Fonz]

Jeff_rys, sorry, forgot you were the perfect model of mankind by which we can base all our understanding of the science of pharmacology.

Ulter, keep that open mind bro. In the abstract you posted, they settled on 36 studies for detailed analysis - period. My point in this thread is that people should not issue a blanket statement regarding somethig without any proof whatsoever. You may feel that my contribution on this thread is of no value. I feel your contribution is of negative value. Big deal. This is called a debate.

Nandi12, good post. Maybe milk thistle has more negative impact than positive for our purposes. The particular study seems limited to the prostate, but it does make one wonder what impact it may have when tying to pack on some mass.

Now available at all Bookstores!!!!!

"How to make friends in discussion boards" by Silent Method....

LOL.

Fonz

 

[Silent Method]

Now available at all Bookstores!!!!!

"How to make friends in discussion boards" by Silent Method....

LOL.

Gee guys, I was really out of line wasen't I? Well, no not really, but thanks for the crack at trying to make this personal.

 

[Jeff_rys]

Is that how you are Silent?????

Jeff_rys, sorry, forgot you were the perfect model of mankind by which we can base all our understanding of the science of pharmacology.

Ulter, keep that open mind bro. In the abstract you posted, they settled on 36 studies for detailed analysis - period. My point in this thread is that people should not issue a blanket statement regarding somethig without any proof whatsoever. You may feel that my contribution on this thread is of no value. I feel your contribution is of negative value. Big deal. This is called a debate.

Nandi12, good post. Maybe milk thistle has more negative impact than positive for our purposes. The particular study seems limited to the prostate, but it does make one wonder what impact it may have when tying to pack on some mass.

If you can't win .....you react like that. So what do i answer know "Silent is an xx...". I could, but will not. Obviously i am working on your nerves.

I said this before: can only post my personal experience, but for you Silent this is not enough.

Milk Tistle is maybe good to use in normal life where roids are not used. But please do yourself a favor and use stronger more decent detoxifiers.

By the way Silent...thanks for the compliment. It shows very well that you don't know me at all.

No YUM, my roid use started 4 years ago with Deca, then Primobolan, then Winny, then Ox, then Tren, then Winny + Ox. In between Primo + PGF2a and since recently HGH.

Using one roid at a time does not give the best results, but you learn how the drug affects your body.

 

[jboldman]

I actually emailed one of the principle investigators

in this study and he responded that without more study you could not draw any conclusions re its effect tissues other than the prostate.. In light of that, I would call this a positive effect of silymarin rather than a negative effect until further study has been done.
============================================

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but I am surprised no one has addressed the study outlined below that suggests silymarin interferes with androgen receptor function:

: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403
Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclear localization of the receptor in
the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.

Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Mayo Graduate School, Mayo Clinic/Foundation, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.

A number of reports have shown that the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin (SM) is an effective anticancer agent. Agents with novel
mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of SM, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line, LNCaP, by arresting the cell cycle at the G(1) phase without causing cell death. This study further delineates the potential molecular mechanism by which SM and SB exhibit antiproliferative effects on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that SM and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2). Additionally, for the first time, we show that an immunophilin, FKBP51, is androgen regulated and that this up-regulation is suppressed by SM and SB. We further demonstrate that transactivation activity of the AR was diminished by SM and SB using gene transfer of PSA promoter and hK2 androgen-responsive element constructs. However, expression and steroid-binding ability of total AR were not affected by SM in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens using western blotting assay and immunocytochemical staining. This study provides a new insight into how SM and SB negatively modulate androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

 

[jboldman]

". So does a glass of milk. "

Do you have any proof of that? <GRIN> BTW, I disagree with you, I doubt that most folks here think that milk thistle is a magic bullet that will somehow protect them from chronic 17aa use/abuse, but rather one of several supplements that when combined will provide them with the maximum protection available. At least that is what I think! I think the bone of contention here is/was fonz's blanket evaluation of MT s having NO positive effect, that is a black and white type of thing, even a "miniscule" effect would prove Fonz wrong. As I have said before, i believe that Fonz does this on purpose to generate interesting threads and I applaude him for it, too bad it gets so personal when one's beliefs are challeged. I guess it must be the fina!

silent,

If your point is that Milk Thistle is of some miniscule benefit to your liver. I concede it may be. So does a glass of milk.
If that's your point you have no business on this thread in the first place. Because "some benefit" is not what people on this board use it for and you know it. They use it thinking it is going to protect their liver from the 17aa drugs they use, which it will not do. Fonz and Jeff_rys and I are trying to let people know that Milk Thistle will not protect their liver and you're going on and on arguing that there is no proof it has no benefit.
Don't tell ME to read the abstract. You are the one who said they only looked at 36 studies and now you're back pedaling and saying they "whittled" through 525. So what are you saying they went through them without looking at them? Oh sorry, whittled through them without looking at them. Your contribution here is of no value.

 

[Silent Method]

Jeff_rys, my statement was not meant as a slam, merely an attempt to refute your point, more correctly, to establish the pure irrelevance of it. An example, how do you feel about creatine? Does it work? Most people will say yes. Many people will say no. Science will support the fact that creatine supplementation does result in some benefit for some people. For some, it will show no benefit. Now, imagine trying to assess the value of creatine based on one persons personal experience. This is what I feel you are doing, and yes, this does strike a nerve with me. Your judgment in this matter is based purely on the merit of one case - your own. So no, your personal experience is not enough for me regarding this matter.

Your advice to use something stronger than milk thistle for liver protection in an AAS user is wellfounded. I agree 100%. With much better options, one would be a fool to rely on milk thistle only. You state "Milk Tistle is maybe good to use in normal life where roids are not used." Very true. However, I will add that "milk thistle is maybe good to use in normal life where roids" are used.

What is this, the 135th post in this thread? Maybe the 50th time I've felt I've had to state that I have seen no evidence validating the statements in post #1 of this thread.

Jboldman, I'm thinking of changing my sig to "do you have any proof of that?" Maybe even trade marking it. If what you said about Fonz's motivation for starting this thread with such statements is true, it sheds a whole new light on the type of circular reasoning exhibited within this thread.

 

[Bubba]

Great post. I enjoyed it.
Flushing with water is the best way.

 

[Jeff_rys]

no Silent, i still will not give in

Creatine can have a SMALL benefit as milk tistle. But would you choose Creatine over roids (hahaha). So way take milk tistle and hope that you get the benefit out of it. It's like taking prohormones and hoping this will beat HGH (would be nice for the cost).
As for the Creatine, it lets you retain water in the muscle so you get the impression of gaining muscle. Taking a heavy dosage each day is great for killing your kidneys. So no, i will never take Creatine again either.

What you should do (if not already done) is : do a cycle of two 17 aa's, for 6 weeks and take one gram of milk tistle. Then get a blood test. Then go at it for another 6 weeks, this time use ALA with Tylers Detox (both products are easy to get in the US), also one gram a day. Another blood test will indicate what gives best results. Post the results here and proof you are right.
If you do not want to do this, then stop posting.

 

[Fonz]

LOL...This thread is starting to feel like a merry-go-round..

These are the facts:

Lets say a person uses: 100mg Winstrol/day


And uses 5 of the following combinations.

1) ALA

2) ALA+Tylers

3) Milk Thistle

4) ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

5) ALA+Milk Thistle

Ok,lets see if we can all follow this simple explanation.

The LOWEST LIVER ENZYME VALUES WILL BE SEEN:
(From lowest to highest)

1. ALA+Tylers and ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

2. ALA and ALA+Milk Thistle

3. Milk Thistle.

Now, using some more of that grey matter we have up there...
(hopefully anyways..)


ALA+Tylers = ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

and

ALA = ALA+Milk Thistle

So, in other words if either ALA or ALA+Tylers is
being used MILK THISTLE DOES NOT YIELD
ABSOLUTELY ANY BENEFIT!!!!

Has this penetrated your mental processes enough for
you to understand?

It is IRRELEVANT to say Milk Thistle has "some"
liver-protecting properties because ALA and
Tylers already protect the liver to the
highest extent. THE ADDITION OF MILK THISTLE
WILL NOT YIELD BETTER LIVER PRORECTION.

So, if you're taking ALA or ALA+Tylers, you're
better off giving your Milk Thistle to your cat or
dog as they're going to see more benefits
from it then you are.

Fonz

 

[Silent Method]

no Silent, i still will not give in

Creatine can have a SMALL benefit as milk tistle. But would you choose Creatine over roids hahaha). So way take milk tistle and hope that you get the benefit out of it. It's like taking prohormones and hoping this will beat HGH (would be nice for the cost).
As for the Creatine, it lets you retain water in the muscle so you get the impression of gaining muscle. Taking a heavy dosage each day is great for killing your kidneys. So no, i will never take Creatine again either.

What you should do (if not already done) is : do a cycle of two 17 aa's, for 6 weeks and take one gram of milk tistle. Then get a blood test. Then go at it for another 6 weeks, this time use ALA with Tylers Detox(both products are easy to get in the US), also one gram a day. Another blood test will indicate what gives best results. Post the results here and proof you are right. If you do not want to do this, then stop posting.

Jeff_rys, Your experiment lacks a control. By design, the best that could be measured would be the effectiveness of ALA + Tyler's Detox alone compared to milk thistle alone. (And even then, it is still rather limited observation in one individual.) Maybe you have missed it, but I've already said that I believe that ALA kicks ass over milk thistle. My argument is that there is no basis for proclaiming as fact the opinion that milk thistle is worthless - even in light of ALA use.

I think you missed my point with the whole creatine example. The point is simply that the result that one person sees while using a given chemical does not determine the results for another person using that chemical. You used creatine, didn't think it was all that, and decided that the risk was greater than the reward. Others have used it, saw spectacular, quantifiable results, feel there are no adverse effects, and continue to use it. Should we all base our understanding of creatine from your viewpoint? You may think so, but this is no way to assess creatine as an athletic supplement. So it is with your personal ALA/milk thistle experience.

(BTW, I think you have a limited understanding of how creatine works. Drawing some extra water into the muscle is swell (haha I made a pun) and may result in a bit of a strength increase. However, of more interest to an athlete looking facilitate real muscle growth is creatine's ATP regenerative property. By facilitating quick and efficient regeneration of ATP, creatine supplementation can enable an athlete to lift at a given intensity for a longer duration. Unless you have or are predisposed to kidney problems, are dehydrated, or are taking an unnecessarily large dose of creatine, its use should not pose any risk to your kidneys.)

 

[Silent Method]

Round and round and round we go...

Fonz, Your logic in this matter is too simple. It fails to take into account the vast multitude of variables, some known and some unknown, regarding this matter. Your logic is analogous to saying A-->C (very effectively) and B-->C (arguably less effectively.) Therefore, why use B to yield C when you could use A yield C more effectively? However, what I think you are failing to take into account here is that "liver protection" is not that simple and clear cut. It is a highly dynamic puzzle. ALA and Tyler's do not cover every aspect of this puzzle. If they did, we would have a means to HALT all liver damage. I propose that milk thistle MAY cover a piece of the liver damage puzzle that neither ALA nor Tyler's Detox cover. (Trudge back a couple of dozen posts. There seems to be some overlap in the way milk thistle and ALA and Tyler's work.) I could be dead wrong. But it is premature to assume I'm wrong, premature to claim milk thistle is worthless, without any evidence to support that claim. You have presented no evidence to effectively refute my stance.

 

[SirWanksalot]

I think the best thing that will come of this thread is a lot more bro's will incorporate ALA (and hopefully GLA also) into there arsenal and quite a few livers will be saved (later in life) in the process.

ALA performs so many good things for the body - I consider it a miracle nutrient.

 

[jboldman]

A++ for creativity <GRIN>

You are right, this thread has gone way over the top! Score another one for sillygistic logic, oops I mean syllogistic logic!

LOL...This thread is starting to feel like a merry-go-round..

These are the facts:

Lets say a person uses: 100mg Winstrol/day


And uses 5 of the following combinations.

1) ALA

2) ALA+Tylers

3) Milk Thistle

4) ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

5) ALA+Milk Thistle

Ok,lets see if we can all follow this simple explanation.

The LOWEST LIVER ENZYME VALUES WILL BE SEEN:
(From lowest to highest)

1. ALA+Tylers and ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

2. ALA and ALA+Milk Thistle

3. Milk Thistle.

Now, using some more of that grey matter we have up there...
(hopefully anyways..)


ALA+Tylers = ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

and

ALA = ALA+Milk Thistle

So, in other words if either ALA or ALA+Tylers is
being used MILK THISTLE DOES NOT YIELD
ABSOLUTELY ANY BENEFIT!!!!

Has this penetrated your mental processes enough for
you to understand?

It is IRRELEVANT to say Milk Thistle has "some"
liver-protecting properties because ALA and
Tylers already protect the liver to the
highest extent. THE ADDITION OF MILK THISTLE
WILL NOT YIELD BETTER LIVER PRORECTION.

So, if you're taking ALA or ALA+Tylers, you're
better off giving your Milk Thistle to your cat or
dog as they're going to see more benefits
from it then you are.

Fonz

 

[smokinghawk]

This is an awesome discussion. anyone who thinks bodybuilders are dummies with no brains or education should read all of this.

Plenty of white-collar pipsqueaks don't know what "syllogistic logic" is!

 

[Painkiller]

In Norway ala is not legal, so I have always taken Silybum marianum (Milk Thistle).
All I can say is that it is working for me...

Silybum marianum

Description and Constituents
Silybum marianum (milk thistle) has been used for centuries as an herbal medicine for the treatment of liver disease. Its use for liver disorders dates back to Pliny the Elder, a Roman naturalist, who described milk thistle as being "excellent for carrying off bile."1 Milk thistle is an annual or biennial plant indigenous to Europe and is also found in some parts of the United States. It grows in rocky soils to a height of three to ten feet with an erect stem that bears large, alternating, prickly-edged leaves. The common name, milk thistle, is derived from the "milky white" veins on the leaves, which, when broken open, yield a milky sap. Flowering season is from June to August, and each stem bears a single, large, purple flower ending in sharp spines. The fruit portion of the plant is glossy brown or grey with spots.2-4 Silybum marianum contains silymarin, which is composed of the flavanolignans silybin, silydianin, and silychristine, with silybin being the most biologically active. Silymarin is found in highest concentrations in the fruit portion of the plant but is also found in the leaves and seeds. The seeds also contain betaine, trimethylglycine and essential fatty acids, which may contribute to silymarin's hepatoprotective and anti-inflammatory effects.

Mechanisms of Action
Silymarin's hepatoprotective effects are accomplished via several mechanisms including antioxidation,8 inhibition of lipid peroxidation,9 enhanced liver detoxification via inhibition of Phase I detoxification and enhanced glucuronidation,10,11 and protection of glutathione depletion.12 Studies have also shown silymarin exhibits several anti-inflammatory effects, including inhibition of leukotriene and prostaglandin synthesis, Kupffer cell inhibition, mast cell stabilization, and inhibition of neutrophil migration.13-17In addition, silymarin has been shown to increase hepatocyte protein synthesis, thereby promoting hepatic tissue regeneration.18Animal studies have also demonstrated silybin reduces the conversion of hepatic stellate cells into myofibroblasts, slowing or even reversing fibrosis.19 Clinical studies conducted in Hungary also demonstrated silymarin to have immunomodulatory effects on the diseased liver.20,21

Pharmacokinetics
Silymarin is not water soluble, making tea preparations ineffective; therefore it is usually administered orally in encapsulated form. Because absorption of silymarin from the gastrointestinal tract is only moderate (23-47%), it is best administered as a standardized extract of 70-80 percent silymarin. In animals and humans, peak plasma levels are reached in four to six hours after an oral dose. Silymarin is excreted primarily via the bile but some clearance is also achieved via the kidneys. The clearance half-life of silymarin is six to eight hours.22,23


Clinical Indications

Amanita Mushroom Poisoning
The most impressive use of silymarin is in the treatment of Amanita phalloides mushroom poisoning. The genus Amanita is widespread in Europe and North America with several edible species being prized by mushroom collectors. Unfortunately, many of the Amanita species are highly toxic, and ingestion results in severe liver damage and death in approximately 30 percent of cases.24 In animal studies, silymarin given within 10 minutes after amanita toxin ingestion completely counteracted the toxic effects, and if given within 24 hours of toxin ingestion silymarin prevented death and greatly reduced liver damage.25

Hepatitis
Studies have shown silymarin to be effective in the treatment of both acute and chronic hepatitis. In acute viral hepatitis, administration of silymarin shortened treatment time and lowered serum bilirubin, AST, and ALT. In patients with chronic hepatitis, 420 mg silymarin per day for six months also yielded improved serum liver enzymes.26

Alcoholic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis
Studies conducted in Austria and Hungary have demonstrated silymarin administration resulted in a normalization of serum liver enzyme and total bilirubin levels in patients with alcoholic liver disease, in addition to improved liver tissue histology.27 In patients with cirrhosis, long-term (41 months) administration of silymarin at 420 mg per day resulted in a significant increase in survival compared to the placebo group.28

Hypercholesterolemia
An animal study found silymarin given to rats with diet-induced hypercholesterolemia demonstrated an anticholesterolemic effect similar to probucol, with an increase in HDL cholesterol and a decrease in total and biliary cholesterol.29

Psoriasis
The value of silymarin in the treatment of psoriasis may be due to its ability to improve endotoxin removal by the liver, inhibit cAMP phosphodiesterase, and inhibit leukotriene synthesis. Abnormally high levels of cAMP and leukotrienes have been observed in patients with psoriasis and normalization of these levels may improve the condition.13,30

Dosage/Toxicity
Silybum marianum is usually given as a standardized extract (70-80% silymarin) in encapsulated form, 100-300 mg three times daily being the typical adult dose. Both animal and human studies have shown silymarin to be non-toxic. At high doses (>1500 mg per day) a laxative effect is possible due to increased bile secretion and flow. Mild allergic reactions have also been noted but were not serious.

References
1. Pliny the Elder, Historia Naturalis 77 A.D.
2. Bisset N. Herbal Drugs and Pharmaceuticals. London: CRC Press; 1994:121-123.
3. Gruenwald J, Brendler T, Jaenicke C. PDR for Herbal Medicines. Montvale, NJ: Medical Economics Company, Inc.; 1998:1138-1141.
4. Luper S. A review of plants used in the treatment of liver disease: part 1. Altern Med Rev 1998;4:410-421.
5. Wagner H. Antihepatotoxic flavonoids. In: Cody V, Middleton E, and Harbourne JB eds. Plant Flavonoids in Biology and Medicine: Biochemical, Pharmacological, and Structure-Activity Relationships. New York, NY: Alan R. Liss, Inc.; 1986:545-558.
6. Adzet T. Polyphenolic compounds with biological and pharmacological activity. Herbs Spices Medicinal Plants 1986;1:167-184.
7. Hikino H, Kiso Y, Wagner H, Feibig M. Antihepatotoxic actions of flavonolignans from Silybum marianum fruits. Planta Medica 1984;50:248-250.
8. Wagner H. Plant constituents with antihepatotoxic activity. In: Beal JL, Reinhard E eds. Natural Products as Medicinal Agents. Stuttgart: Hippokrates-Verlag; 1981.
9. Bosisio E, Benelli C, Pirola O, et al. Effect of the flavanolignans of Silybum marianum L. on lipid peroxidation in rat liver microsomes and freshly isolated hepatocytes. Pharmacol Res 1992;25:147-154.
10. Baer-Dubowska W, Szaefer H, Drajka-Kuzniak V. Inhibition of murine hepatic cytochrome P450 activities by natural and synthetic phenolic compounds. Xenobiotica 1998;28:735-743.
11. Halim AB, el-Ahmady O, Hassab-Allah S, et al. Biochemical effect of antioxidants on lipids and liver function in experimentally-induced liver damage. Ann Clin Biochem 1997;34:656-663.
12. Campos R, Garido A, Guerra R, et al. Silybin dihemisuccinate protects against glutathione depletion and lipid peroxidation induced by acetaminophen on rat liver. Planta Med 1989;55:417-419.
13. Fiebrich F, Koch H. Silymarin, an inhibitor of lipoxygenase. Experentia 1979;35:150-152.
14. Dehmlow C, Erhard J, de Groot H. Inhibition of Kupffer cell functions as an explanation for the hepatoprotective properties of silibinin. Hepatology 1996;23:749-754.
15. Fantozzi R, Brunelleschi S, Rubino A, et al. FMLP-activated neutrophils evoke histamine release from mast cells. Agents Actions 1986;18:155-158.
16. Dehmlow C, Murawski N, de Groot H, et al. Scavenging of reactive oxygen species and inhibition of arachidonic acid metabolism by silibinin in human cells. Life Sci 1996;58:1591-1600.
17. De La Puerta R, Martinez E, Bravo L. Effect of silymarin on different acute inflammation models and on leukocyte migration. J Pharm Pharmacol 1996;48:968-970.
18. Sonnenbichler J, Zetl I. Biochemical effects of the flavanolignane silibinin on RNA, protein and DNA synthesis in rat livers. In: Cody V, Middleton E, Harbourne JB, eds. Plant Flavonoids in Biology and Medicine: Biochemical, Pharmacological, and Structure-Activity Relationships. New York, NY; 1986:319-331.
19. Fuchs EC, Weyhenmeyer R, Weiner OH, et al. Effects of silibinin and of a synthetic analogue on isolated rat hepatic stellate cells and myofibroblasts. Arzneimittelforschung 1997;26:643-649.
20. Deak G, Muzes G, Lang I. Immunomodulator effect of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil 1990:131:1291-1292, 1295-1296. [Article in Hungarian]
21. Lang I, Nekam K, Gonzalez-Cabello R. Hepatoprotective and immunological effects of antioxidant drugs. Tokai J Exp Clin Med 1990;15:123-127.
22. Schandalik R, Gatti G, Perucca E, et al. Pharmacokinetics of silybin in bile following administration of silipide and silymarin in cholecystectomy patients. Arzneimittelforschung 1992;42:964-968.
23. Tyler V. Herbalgram 1994;30:24-30.
24. Vogel G, Tuchweber B, Trost W. Protection by silibinin against Amanita phalloides intoxication in beagles. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1984;73:355-362.
25. Desplaces A, Choppin J, Vogel G, Trost W. The effects of silymarin on experimental phalloidine poisoning. Arzneimittelforschung 1975;25:89-96.
26. Magliulo E, Gagliardi B, Fiori GP. Results of a double blind study on the effect of silymarin in the treatment of acute viral hepatitis, carried out at two medical centres. Med Klin 1978;73:1060-1065. [Article in German]
27. Feher I, Deak G, Muzes G. Liver protective action of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil 1989;130:2723-2727. [Article in Hungarian]
28. Ferenci P, Dragosics B, Dittrich H, et al. Randomized controlled trial of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver. J Hepatol 1989;9:105-113.
29. Kreeman V, Skottova N, Walterova D, et al. Silymarin inhibits the development of diet-induced hypercholesterolemia in rats. Planta Med 1998;64:138-142.
30. Kock HP, Bachner J, Loffler E. Silymarin: Potent inhibitor of cyclic AMP phosphodiesterase. Meth Find Expel Clin Pharmacol 1985;7:409-413.

 

[jboldman]

I'm just curious why no one has mentioned

n-acetyl cysteine since it would appear to act in the same way as ALA! BTW, NAC is the first thing mentioned on the list of ingredients of Tyler's Liver Detox. Another interesting fact is that milk thistle is included but not ALA! Seems that Mr. Tyler thinks that there is some benefit to Milk Thistle, but he probably does not know what he is talking aobut! <GRIN>

 

[Jeff_rys]

but i did mention this Boldman

quote myself:
"But they do prescribe "L-reduced Glutathione" and "Lysomucil" (Acetylcysteinum) and they do work. Now of course Ala and Tyler's do also work but are not available in Belgium."

"Acetylcysteinum" is "n-acetyl cysteine" and it is probably the strongest detoxifier we know. Acetylcysteinum can be injected in the vein for fast recovery.

 

[jboldman]

I bow to your wisdom!

Unfortunately I am not a scientist and did not know that Lysomucil aka acetylcysteinum was in fact also a name for NAC. Mea Culpa!

quote myself:
"But they do prescribe "L-reduced Glutathione" and "Lysomucil" (Acetylcysteinum) and they do work. Now of course Ala and Tyler's do also work but are not available in Belgium."

"Acetylcysteinum" is "n-acetyl cysteine" and it is probably the strongest detoxifier we know. Acetylcysteinum can be injected in the vein for fast recovery.

 

[Jeff_rys]

i am not a scientist either....

but i asked my pharmacist....so it was easy.

Also i bought it and sometimes use it. This is more for sick livers while ALA & Tyler's are liver protectors avoiding the liver to get sick.

 

[Italianboy]

Great posts FOnz!As ever!
They used injectable ALA or the common oral form?

Also if you have a little time,could you explain why alkilated are harsh on the liver?

Anyway I have to send you a sample of Glutathione injection 600mg per vial.So you will check it!

 

[Jeff_rys]

hehehe Italianboy

Great posts FOnz!As ever!
They used injectable ALA or the common oral form?

Also if you have a little time,could you explain why alkilated are harsh on the liver?

Anyway I have to send you a sample of Glutathione injection 600mg per vial.So you will check it!

Nice to see you in this thread

 

[BIGIRONMEL]

Half Baked truths !!

Hi,bros...I've never seen such half bakes posts get so much attention & applaud ....

No Modern Med works well with respect to protecting the liver...
,Cleansers or regenerators all different Class of meds...Each different from another...
Liver is the only regenerative ORGAN in the Human Body ..so if you cut of 90%....the 10% would grow back to normal...
Alcohol abuse( eg 1-2 bottles a day..of hard liquor ),etc takes 5-10 years before severe damage to liver cells are seen .
Facts are the ONLY TRUE & EFFECTIVE LIVER MEDS are all Herbal meds & they have been effectively used for 1000's of years not just 5-10 years of research...
I used to be spectical with Ayurveda or HERBAL meds but come what may...they proven to be extremely effective.beyond any doubt.& powerful in this respect..
Strange thing is no one knows the exact elements involved in these herbal extracts or the mechanism they work thru..Fact id they work BIG TIME....
There are 3 diff Kinds of LIVER MEDS...Those that are basic Protectants....They prevent minimal damage thats all..
.eg LIV-52 ,Silymarin,etc....
Next there are Liver cleansers which clean the liver of the damaging particles,fatty substances,toxins etc.. etc...
Then there are Regenerators which actually heal the LIVER cells & promote regeneration..

I've seen studies & personally had Normal liver values on a heavy Anabolic Cycle which is Amazing...All from using these STRONG HERBAL MEDS....
All other times Liver values particularly SGPT/SGOT..normal values range around 40....during even a mild Anabolic Cycle shoots to 60....You will appear perfectly normal.appetite strength etc all up.....But your Doc if he does a Blood test & doesnt know of your Anabolic use may be alarmed ....
LIV-52 ,PREVIL,ESGIPITY all...from INDIA & MOST OTHER HERBAL MEDS work...These are the only Proven MEds....Ask the people in the know how or Experienced unbiased Med professionals on know how....Peace....BIGMEL

 

[Jeff_rys]

well Bigmel show us your bloodtests to proof your point

quote you:
"No Modern Med works well with respect to protecting the liver...
,Cleansers or regenerators all different Class of meds...Each different from another... "

Keep on dreaming.... All that is said here by others and me is simply "TRUE".

Sure your liver regenerates and comes back to normal on it's own. However some products mentionned here lets your liver recover faster. Some products avoid the liver values to go up.
I have a friend who's liver was in very bad shape. It took him MORE then 6 months to overcome this. He refused to take any medication to speed up the process.
With the right medication it would have been done in 4-8 weeks.
No mather how good your herbs are, i myself am really not interested in them.

SGOT normal values must be seen in the range of 0-30 since 36 is the top limit, so 40 is too much.
As for shooting to 60 in a mild cycle, this can be avoided, just read all the "half baked posts" in this thread.

 

[Fonz]

Re: Half Baked truths !!

Hi,bros...I've never seen such half bakes posts get so much attention & applaud ....

No Modern Med works well with respect to protecting the liver...
,Cleansers or regenerators all different Class of meds...Each different from another...
Liver is the only regenerative ORGAN in the Human Body ..so if you cut of 90%....the 10% would grow back to normal...
Alcohol abuse( eg 1-2 bottles a day..of hard liquor ),etc takes 5-10 years before severe damage to liver cells are seen .
Facts are the ONLY TRUE & EFFECTIVE LIVER MEDS are all Herbal meds & they have been effectively used for 1000's of years not just 5-10 years of research...
I used to be spectical with Ayurveda or HERBAL meds but come what may...they proven to be extremely effective.beyond any doubt.& powerful in this respect..
Strange thing is no one knows the exact elements involved in these herbal extracts or the mechanism they work thru..Fact id they work BIG TIME....
There are 3 diff Kinds of LIVER MEDS...Those that are basic Protectants....They prevent minimal damage thats all..
.eg LIV-52 ,Silymarin,etc....
Next there are Liver cleansers which clean the liver of the damaging particles,fatty substances,toxins etc.. etc...
Then there are Regenerators which actually heal the LIVER cells & promote regeneration..

I've seen studies & personally had Normal liver values on a heavy Anabolic Cycle which is Amazing...All from using these STRONG HERBAL MEDS....
All other times Liver values particularly SGPT/SGOT..normal values range around 40....during even a mild Anabolic Cycle shoots to 60....You will appear perfectly normal.appetite strength etc all up.....But your Doc if he does a Blood test & doesnt know of your Anabolic use may be alarmed ....
LIV-52 ,PREVIL,ESGIPITY all...from INDIA & MOST OTHER HERBAL MEDS work...These are the only Proven MEds....Ask the people in the know how or Experienced unbiased Med professionals on know how....Peace....BIGMEL

#

Sure. I'll be sure to call the neighbourhood shaman.....

Man, get off the soap-box. This is a scientific discussion NOT
the "Herbal products rule" thread.......

I would have liked to have seen Ghandi 's liver on some A50.......

Fonz

 

[Willyumyum]

Re: Re: Half Baked truths !!

#

Sure. I'll be sure to call the neighbourhood shaman.....

Man, get off the soap-box. This is a scientific discussion NOT
the "Herbal products rule" thread.......

I would have liked to have seen Ghandi 's liver on some A50.......

Fonz

Screw you fonzy.... You just made me spit oatmeal all over the place, now I gotta clean it all up...

YUM

 

[Fonz]

I just couldn't resist saying that crack...........LOL

Fonz

 

[Krazzylad]

Ok stupid question, Is ALA controlled or can you buy it at GNC?

 

[Fonz]

Ok stupid question, Is ALA controlled or can you buy it at GNC?

Its a quasi-vitamin..Definately NOT controlled.
And yes, you can buy it at GNC.....

Fonz

 

[BIGIRONMEL]

Re: Re: Half Baked truths !!

#

Sure. I'll be sure to call the neighbourhood shaman.....

Man, get off the soap-box. This is a scientific discussion NOT
the "Herbal products rule" thread.......

I would have liked to have seen Ghandi 's liver on some A50.......

Fonz

Didnt mean to start this strong But
Dream on Kid...No disrespect...But.Youre obviously not a well informed & most important an open minded person....& one of the many people who think the US is the only country on this planet...with any history. which is liken to someone living in a well & no feedback from the outside world....Sad but True

Even a simple Aspirin actually occurs naturally in nature..as willow bark,so is SILYMARIN
.There are100's of complete scientific evaluations & independent studies as well...Millions of $$ have gone into its research..& studies going back few 1000 years are available as Ayurveda.
The Doctors studying Ayuveda actually study same studies,entrance exams as one studies for M.B.B.S etc
for the 1st 3 years....then its 1 year of specialisation & then internship
..Just Cause US MNC companies cannot patent the drugs now cause of various factors & market it in the US doesnt go very far.eg Tumeric where they tried to steal & quietly patent the drug & tried to market is as their Own...got overturned in a US court..
Even Damn GNC had been approached just under a year but they tried to use The Company involved to steal & patent it under their Own brand Name..any guesses as to why.
I too used to be sceptical before I knew facts...
I know my shit well..have competed a decade ago at the World Amatuer Comp with many who have turned Pros now...& have people who actually own & run few frontline 100 million $ Pharmacuetical .companies as advisors on these Facts on effectivenes of Herbal Products..
.Ask around about Me ...at the Bolex,Ren,UG anywhere...before wanting to trash me again..PEACE...BIGMEL

 

[Fonz]

Re: Re: Re: Half Baked truths !!

Didnt mean to start this strong But
Dream on Kid...No disrespect...But.Youre obviously not a well informed & most important an open minded person....& one of the many people who think the US is the only country on this planet...with any history. which is liken to someone living in a well & no feedback from the outside world....Sad but True

Even a simple Aspirin actually occurs naturally in nature..as willow bark,so is SILYMARIN
.There are100's of complete scientific evaluations & independent studies as well...Millions of $$ have gone into its research..& studies going back few 1000 years are available as Ayurveda.
The Doctors studying Ayuveda actually study same studies,entrance exams as one studies for M.B.B.S etc
for the 1st 3 years....then its 1 year of specialisation & then internship
..Just Cause US MNC companies cannot patent the drugs now cause of various factors & market it in the US doesnt go very far.eg Tumeric where they tried to steal & quietly patent the drug & tried to market is as their Own...got overturned in a US court..
Even Damn GNC had been approached just under a year but they tried to use The Company involved to steal & patent it under their Own brand Name..any guesses as to why.
I too used to be sceptical before I knew facts...
I know my shit well..have competed a decade ago at the World Amatuer Comp with many who have turned Pros now...& have people who actually own & run few frontline 100 million $ Pharmacuetical .companies as advisors on these Facts on effectivenes of Herbal Products..
.Ask around about Me ...at the Bolex,Ren,UG anywhere...before wanting to trash me again..PEACE...BIGMEL

Me, not open-minded??

Sorry, but you're dead wrong.

And need I remind you that you're the one who
basically tried to say this whole thread was
utter nonsense.

Just a thought I'll leave you to ponder about.

Fonz

 

[Fonz]

Re: Re: Re: Half Baked truths !!

Didnt mean to start this strong But
Dream on Kid...No disrespect...But.Youre obviously not a well informed & most important an open minded person....& one of the many people who think the US is the only country on this planet...with any history. which is liken to someone living in a well & no feedback from the outside world....Sad but True

Even a simple Aspirin actually occurs naturally in nature..as willow bark,so is SILYMARIN
.There are100's of complete scientific evaluations & independent studies as well...Millions of $$ have gone into its research..& studies going back few 1000 years are available as Ayurveda.
The Doctors studying Ayuveda actually study same studies,entrance exams as one studies for M.B.B.S etc
for the 1st 3 years....then its 1 year of specialisation & then internship
..Just Cause US MNC companies cannot patent the drugs now cause of various factors & market it in the US doesnt go very far.eg Tumeric where they tried to steal & quietly patent the drug & tried to market is as their Own...got overturned in a US court..
Even Damn GNC had been approached just under a year but they tried to use The Company involved to steal & patent it under their Own brand Name..any guesses as to why.
I too used to be sceptical before I knew facts...
I know my shit well..have competed a decade ago at the World Amatuer Comp with many who have turned Pros now...& have people who actually own & run few frontline 100 million $ Pharmacuetical .companies as advisors on these Facts on effectivenes of Herbal Products..
.Ask around about Me ...at the Bolex,Ren,UG anywhere...before wanting to trash me again..PEACE...BIGMEL

Oh, and "kid"?????

Ok, all hail BIGMEL.......LOL

Even better:

" ...& have people who actually own & run few frontline 100 million $ Pharmacuetical .companies as advisors on these Facts on effectivenes of Herbal Products.."

We all know how reputable these advisors are.... LOL

Go back and say Hi to them from me......

Errr...........

.Ask around about Me ...at the Bolex,Ren,UG anywhere...before wanting to trash me again..PEACE...BIGMEL

Sure, don't let the door hit your big ass head on the way out.

Fonz

 

[qui01]

what all the postings on Lipoic Acid fail to mention is the fact that all of LA benefits are derived in all of the medline studies from R-enantiomer LA and a private person can not purchase R(+)ALA from anywhere in USA

all the commercially sold LA supplements are made from racemic mixture containing syntheric S(-)ALA and R(+)ALA

the problem according to studies on medline is that the S-enantiomer cancels out the benefits of the R-enantiomer

 

[jboldman]

I saw this study re insulin sensitivity but I did not realize that it was also regarding the antoxidant effect on the liver, two different things. Please point me to the study re the liver.

 

[rebeljuice]

SOunds interesting, now i only would like to know what
do you base your statement on?

 

[Spartacus]

Ok, I'm seeing more and more people using Milk thistle.

Well, guess what?

IT DOES NOTHING.

Even plain water is better than Milk Thistle.

So, STOP throwing your money away.

It won't even stem the tide, the liver will still
be bombarded by the 17 alpha-alkylated steroid molecule.
It doesn't even affect liver protection or
regeneration.
I'm not kidding here. Milk thistle won't do a thing.
So, if you use it alone with 17 alpha-alkylated's, you're more
than likely to get high liver enzyme values or WORSE
if using hepatoxic 17 alpha-alkylated's like Anadrol/Halo/winstrol
etc.....

These THREE are the ONLY ONES worth taking. PERIOD.

1. alpha lipoic acid at 600mg/day. THIS IS THE BEST. BAR NONE.

2. Tylers liver detox: Because it includes 3-4 substances
that would cost a fortune to buy by themselves. Not to
mention complicate matters b/c of availibility.(You'd
have to buy from several places at once)

3. Cranberry extract: NOT FOR THE LIVER. but
for the KIDNEYS. ALA and Tylers have little impact
on the kidneys. Cranberry however does.
Dosage: 3000mgs/day

4.(Up and coming) Calcium D-Glucarate: USED AFTER THE
CYCLE.(Some people use it during their cycle but
wether its effective or not is highly debatable).
This a relatively complicated substance to use and
needs to be researched before taking it.
Hard to find too.(Hence the up and coming denotation)

There are other more exotic ones for the liver but are EXPENSIVE
and I think irrelevant because ALA does everything they do.(And
more)

So, to finish up. possible combo's:

1. If price is an issue: ALA+cranberry
2. If not: ALA+Tylers+cranberry.

The reasson I picked ALA over tylers is while they both
protect the liver, ALA has MANY MORE benefits than
Tylers. Including, amazing anti-oxidant power,
increased glucose up-take, incresased oxygen up-take
by the heart etc.. etc..
It also RE-GENERATES damaged liver hepatocytes which
Tylers does NOT do.

These are the only effective ones. The rest I'd flush down
the toilet.
Remember, its your liver. Don't take any chances with
mythical rumours imparted years ago that just hapenned to
brainwash people and made them think that a substance was
actually effective when it really wasn't

The only anabolic androgenic steroids that Milk thistle would even have an impact on
would be Anavar. And that would be pushing it IMHO.

Fonz

good post
though in my opinion tyler's is just a chromed multi-vitamin
you have to take like 6 tyler's pills to get a measurable amount of calcium-d-glucarate

I'd go with r-ALA and calcium-d-glucarate