Liver Helper Myth Destroyed

[Willyumyum]

Re: I didn't read the whole thread, but i will answer you Gman

Fonz is right (usually is, it's dangerous to say always )

I used milk tistle at a rate of 4500 mgr/day (15 caps of 300 mgr).
Liver values where up (as already posted on EF some time ago).
Now when doing L-reduced Glutathione liver values come back to normal even when doing 600 mgr Winny (injected... give me a break) and 350 mgr Ox, so almost 1 gr of 17AA's. What more do you want.

So yes, milk tistle is a waste of money. It just isn't strong enough.

True some liver protectors might interfere with the efficiency of the roids taken at the same time, but not that much. If this worries you take a bit more roids to compensate but protecting your liver should be the main concern here.

I take ALA anyway, but I was just curious if you have done any similar or heavier 17aa cycles and used ALA (or another liver protector) and had your enzymes tested?
If so, were the results better?

YUM

 

[nandi12]

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but I am surprised no one has addressed the study outlined below that suggests silymarin interferes with androgen receptor function:

: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403
Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclear localization of the receptor in
the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.

Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Mayo Graduate School, Mayo Clinic/Foundation, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.

A number of reports have shown that the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin (SM) is an effective anticancer agent. Agents with novel
mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of SM, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line, LNCaP, by arresting the cell cycle at the G(1) phase without causing cell death. This study further delineates the potential molecular mechanism by which SM and SB exhibit antiproliferative effects on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that SM and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2). Additionally, for the first time, we show that an immunophilin, FKBP51, is androgen regulated and that this up-regulation is suppressed by SM and SB. We further demonstrate that transactivation activity of the AR was diminished by SM and SB using gene transfer of PSA promoter and hK2 androgen-responsive element constructs. However, expression and steroid-binding ability of total AR were not affected by SM in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens using western blotting assay and immunocytochemical staining. This study provides a new insight into how SM and SB negatively modulate androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

 

[smokinghawk]

What the heck? MT's cheap at Wal Mart anyway, at $7 per bottle of 100 @ 175mg per.

Add that to Tylers, Radox, 1 gram of ALA, and you should be good togo. This is how I'll handle my D** interim.

 

[DeadLiftZ]

Missing the point...

It seems that there is a misconception that Milk Thistle is supposed to magically cure liver enzyme elevations, when in actuality a simple search on the web will show you that it's to be used as a PREVENTATIVE and not as a cure.

It's been suggested to use milk thistle in conjunction with, not after, aas use to regulate the elevation, not to somehow stop it.

It's also been stated that milk thistle doesn't have any side effects (hard to beleive, but the studies keep repeating this), meaning that if you can tolerate taking high amounts of the SILYMARIN extract contained within MT, you'll benefit.

And let's not neglect the kidneys... cranberry juice works well, but itsn't a cure.

Still curious to see where the studies are which disprove the effectiveness of Silymarin in rejuvinating - not regenerating - the liver.

 

[Silent Method]

Jeff_rys, sorry, forgot you were the perfect model of mankind by which we can base all our understanding of the science of pharmacology.

Ulter, keep that open mind bro. In the abstract you posted, they settled on 36 studies for detailed analysis - period. My point in this thread is that people should not issue a blanket statement regarding somethig without any proof whatsoever. You may feel that my contribution on this thread is of no value. I feel your contribution is of negative value. Big deal. This is called a debate.

Nandi12, good post. Maybe milk thistle has more negative impact than positive for our purposes. The particular study seems limited to the prostate, but it does make one wonder what impact it may have when tying to pack on some mass.

 

[Fonz]

Jeff_rys, sorry, forgot you were the perfect model of mankind by which we can base all our understanding of the science of pharmacology.

Ulter, keep that open mind bro. In the abstract you posted, they settled on 36 studies for detailed analysis - period. My point in this thread is that people should not issue a blanket statement regarding somethig without any proof whatsoever. You may feel that my contribution on this thread is of no value. I feel your contribution is of negative value. Big deal. This is called a debate.

Nandi12, good post. Maybe milk thistle has more negative impact than positive for our purposes. The particular study seems limited to the prostate, but it does make one wonder what impact it may have when tying to pack on some mass.

Now available at all Bookstores!!!!!

"How to make friends in discussion boards" by Silent Method....

LOL.

Fonz

 

[Silent Method]

Now available at all Bookstores!!!!!

"How to make friends in discussion boards" by Silent Method....

LOL.

Gee guys, I was really out of line wasen't I? Well, no not really, but thanks for the crack at trying to make this personal.

 

[Jeff_rys]

Is that how you are Silent?????

Jeff_rys, sorry, forgot you were the perfect model of mankind by which we can base all our understanding of the science of pharmacology.

Ulter, keep that open mind bro. In the abstract you posted, they settled on 36 studies for detailed analysis - period. My point in this thread is that people should not issue a blanket statement regarding somethig without any proof whatsoever. You may feel that my contribution on this thread is of no value. I feel your contribution is of negative value. Big deal. This is called a debate.

Nandi12, good post. Maybe milk thistle has more negative impact than positive for our purposes. The particular study seems limited to the prostate, but it does make one wonder what impact it may have when tying to pack on some mass.

If you can't win .....you react like that. So what do i answer know "Silent is an xx...". I could, but will not. Obviously i am working on your nerves.

I said this before: can only post my personal experience, but for you Silent this is not enough.

Milk Tistle is maybe good to use in normal life where roids are not used. But please do yourself a favor and use stronger more decent detoxifiers.

By the way Silent...thanks for the compliment. It shows very well that you don't know me at all.

No YUM, my roid use started 4 years ago with Deca, then Primobolan, then Winny, then Ox, then Tren, then Winny + Ox. In between Primo + PGF2a and since recently HGH.

Using one roid at a time does not give the best results, but you learn how the drug affects your body.

 

[jboldman]

I actually emailed one of the principle investigators

in this study and he responded that without more study you could not draw any conclusions re its effect tissues other than the prostate.. In light of that, I would call this a positive effect of silymarin rather than a negative effect until further study has been done.
============================================

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but I am surprised no one has addressed the study outlined below that suggests silymarin interferes with androgen receptor function:

: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403
Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclear localization of the receptor in
the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.

Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Mayo Graduate School, Mayo Clinic/Foundation, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.

A number of reports have shown that the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin (SM) is an effective anticancer agent. Agents with novel
mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of SM, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line, LNCaP, by arresting the cell cycle at the G(1) phase without causing cell death. This study further delineates the potential molecular mechanism by which SM and SB exhibit antiproliferative effects on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that SM and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2). Additionally, for the first time, we show that an immunophilin, FKBP51, is androgen regulated and that this up-regulation is suppressed by SM and SB. We further demonstrate that transactivation activity of the AR was diminished by SM and SB using gene transfer of PSA promoter and hK2 androgen-responsive element constructs. However, expression and steroid-binding ability of total AR were not affected by SM in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens using western blotting assay and immunocytochemical staining. This study provides a new insight into how SM and SB negatively modulate androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

 

[jboldman]

". So does a glass of milk. "

Do you have any proof of that? <GRIN> BTW, I disagree with you, I doubt that most folks here think that milk thistle is a magic bullet that will somehow protect them from chronic 17aa use/abuse, but rather one of several supplements that when combined will provide them with the maximum protection available. At least that is what I think! I think the bone of contention here is/was fonz's blanket evaluation of MT s having NO positive effect, that is a black and white type of thing, even a "miniscule" effect would prove Fonz wrong. As I have said before, i believe that Fonz does this on purpose to generate interesting threads and I applaude him for it, too bad it gets so personal when one's beliefs are challeged. I guess it must be the fina!

silent,

If your point is that Milk Thistle is of some miniscule benefit to your liver. I concede it may be. So does a glass of milk.
If that's your point you have no business on this thread in the first place. Because "some benefit" is not what people on this board use it for and you know it. They use it thinking it is going to protect their liver from the 17aa drugs they use, which it will not do. Fonz and Jeff_rys and I are trying to let people know that Milk Thistle will not protect their liver and you're going on and on arguing that there is no proof it has no benefit.
Don't tell ME to read the abstract. You are the one who said they only looked at 36 studies and now you're back pedaling and saying they "whittled" through 525. So what are you saying they went through them without looking at them? Oh sorry, whittled through them without looking at them. Your contribution here is of no value.