Length vs. dosage

[Thoxi]

Eq: 14w-425mg or 12w-500mg?

Hi to you all, I have a quick question for you regarding what will be my second cycle...

I have purchased 6000mg of Eq for what was meant to be a 12 week 500mg ew cycle with Winstrol for the last 4 weeks and Nolva only 20mg ed for a PCT lasting one month...

However, I now see alot of you recommending a minimum of 14 weeks for EQ lean gains, versus the 12 weeks I had been recommended by my dealer...

So, the question is... 12 weeks with 500mg ew, or 14 weeks of 425mg ew? Buying more EQ is not really an option as it is. Just trying to get the most out of what I already have.

Some stats:
21 years old
Weightlifting since 16
Swimming since 14
Powerlifting since 19, albeit not too strong
170lbs with a fat % of about 10
6" tall

What I am looking to gain from this cycle is more lean muslce mass and general gains to both strength and my swimming without much side effects and little bloat/fat gain. I will be consuming 80-120g of protein from shakes alone ed, so put it at about 200-250grams a day.

 

[Thoxi]

Re: Eq: 14w-425mg or 12w-500mg?

Bah! Won't let me change the title into something more specific. Or, at least, it's not showing in the forumlist...

Edit: I see I failed to mention that my first cycle was 6 months ago and consisted of 40mg T-bol ed for 5 weeks. Gained some strength, not more than 3-5lbs of lean mass though.

 

[svtmassa]

I vote 14 week option, eq is fairly effective at 400mg ew I go for 600ew when i use eq

 

[Thoxi]

Alright, thanks bro'.

Anyone else? I'd like to get at least a few opinions on this before I start my cycle... Although I am leaing towards the 14 week cycle... It's only 75mg less every week and gives me those two extra weeks of active eq...

 

[amandhody]

Do you plan to add a little test with that say a 100 mg or a 250 gmg/week?

 

[Thoxi]

I do not plan to add any test to this, no. The gains to sides this would provide are more than enough for me as it's my first inject cycle... Only reason I see for taking some test would be for lowered libido, of which my fellow atheletes have experienced nothing...

I was also under the impression that EQ only with Some Winny at the end was a good lean mass and cutting cycle... I've seen it advertised alot on different forums and books.

Interested in hearing your two cc's on this though!

 

[hrpiii]

I don't think any of this matters if you don't get your diet corrected. If you can not gain lean mass at 21 with a good diet, not sure any AAS is going to provide any magic.

Just an observation bro.

 

[Thoxi]

Duly noted, hrpii. However, I do gain strength as it is, and my diet is very, very clean. I take in alot of protein from different sources, the only thing is that being so active in an endurance sport like swimming does not really combine too well with gaining mass.

Now, I already have purchased the goods, and though I respect your opinions, the viability of me doing a cycle at 21 is not really the issue here. I am simply looking to get the most out of the drugs I have already purchased.

Now, if anyone has any input as to if I should run the 12 week option with a higher dose, or the 14 week with 425mg, I would greatly appreciate it. Frankly I am leaning towards the 14 week cycle, but then again my knowledge of aas is limited.

And although my coach does allow us to use, he does not have the knowledge to answer my question for me.

SO: 6000mg. 14weeksx425mg ew or 12weeksx500mg ew?

Thanks

 

[solidspine]

14 weeks of 425mg ew?

EQ takes a long time to kick in so, it is probably better to go 14 weeks,

But 12 to 14 not a big deal, if you were talking 12 to 18 then yes it would be









Also I would do the winny the first 4 weeks, when the eq has not yet kicked in,

Gives you psychological advantage.

 

[Thoxi]

Hrm, yes there's the dilemma of running it in the front or the back..!

I figured that I'd bulk up through the 14 weeks, gain some mass and all that, then in the 3 weeks of waiting from the last injection of EQ to the PCT can start I'd run the winnys to get some definition and to "get the most" out of my time on the cycle...

I see the logic behind starting it in the front when I'm not getting much out of the EQ, but isn't there a chance the winny would do me more good in the back of the cycle, when there's still some eq in my system...? I mean, it'd be a 17 week cycle instead of a 14 week cycle, if you catch my drift..

Thanks for the input though bro'. Appreciate it.

 

[blut wump]

You should also be alert to the possibility that, no matter how much you've already spent on the Eq, the best way to get the most out of the drugs you have is to leave them on the shelf for another year or two, as Hrpii alludes to.

 

[Thoxi]

Even with 5 years of lifting weights? I mean, I appreciate that I am a little on the young side, but I've lifted weights and ran different training programmes since the age of 16. Also, for the past three-four I've not had a single week off the weights, not counting light deloading weeks. I've never been injured, and I've seen some very good results if I'm honest. However, the last year I've reached a point where my strength is stagnating and my lean mass hasn't changed much the last years despite growing strength. Like I mentioned, this is due to my swimming.

So, I might be young, yes. But my training experience with weights isn't all that bad in my own opinion. I've had feedback from school and private coaches as well as to my lifting form and programmes...

In the end, this is not something I've jumped into, although it might seem that way as I had a last minute doubt as to the duration of my cycle... The other swimmers on my team (4 out of 8 anyway) have ran cycles, mostly deca, but eq has less side effects and always seemed the best choise for me personally.

I probably should wait two years more of stagnating progress in the weight room to see the max results out of this, but considering I'm really set on doing it now, which option would you choose?

And as far as health goes, I will be getting bloodwork done before, mid, and after cycle. We also have our own blood pressure gauger at the gym (kind of a tell-tell about the competiveness, eh?) so I will be checking my bp a few times a week even.

 

[blut wump]

You're on the cusp age-wise, meaning that it's your call. I've no quibble with that.

Your height/weight, though, indicates that you're doing something very wrong and jumping on the sauce isn't going to fix that.

I know you've already decided whether you're going to run the gear and only posted to help decide the lesser of two evils but it'd be lax of us to fail to point out that you still have a lot of growing to work out how to do. Either that or your body really is still maturing and you still have a natural growth spurt about to happen.

You're very light for someone who has been training for five years through his late teens, the last two presumably very seriously. Maybe the Eq will give you the appetite boost to help you to eat more or give you the endurance to boost something in your training. Either way, you should determine why you're failing to grow natty at a time when it should be hard not to.

 

[Thoxi]

Thanks for your feedback, blut wump. As I am norwegian, I am not quite sure I got the kgs to pounds completely right... I don't concider myself a lightweight, although I'm certainly not heavy either... I'm currently 85 kgs, and I think the kg to pound is a 1:2 ratio, correct?

I'm sure you are all much more muscular than me, but as I have mentioned, my 6-8 swimming workouts a week limits the lean mass I can actually put on. I'm usually on at least 3000 calories a day, but in a loading period with heavy training I can be on up to 4500 calories a day, albeit alot of this is carbs as swimming is an endurance sport. Usually though I am at about 2g protein per kg bodyweight.

So, with that out of the way... I've started my injections... 500mg the first one, and if I get some more feedback on weather to do 14 weeks of 420, i'll switch to that and concider this one a frontload.

 

[Muscleaddict]

14 weeks. I'm on a 16 weeker of EQ/test and it took 7 weeks to notice the EQ properly. 85kg=187lbs, sounds right for a 6' swimmer.

 

[OMEGA]

usually opt for more time

go 14 weeks

 

[blut wump]

As already noted, 85Kg is 187 lbs which is much better. The ratio is 2.2.

I don't think there's a good answer to your question and it's really down to how long you wish to be on cycle. For your first cycle, I'd be inclined to err on the side of shorter, especially considering the extra three to four weeks for the Eq to clear.

I think I'd be inclined to run the Winny at the end as a finisher.

 

[Thoxi]

Thank you all, I guess that settles it for me. I'll go with the winnies as a finisher and run the 14 weeks, using the winnies in the 3 weeks "cooldown" before PCT...

Also, this might be somewhere on the forum, but what is the genereal consensus for pct training load? Keep the same weights with a bit less volume, or allow my body some more rest...?

I'm sure I'll find an answer to this with some googling, I'll get to searching.

Again, thanks for you input. Always good to have some more experienced users for guidance.

 

[blut wump]

I tend to keep pushing on weight but drop the volume and, sometimes, also drop a day. The important thing is to avoid catabolism.

 

[Thoxi]

Alright, I'll do that!

I'll sneak in two more questions here, although a new thread might be warranted as they are somewhat differing to eachother...

I have bought Nolva for my pct, but I went over a norwegian website regarding steroids, and the genereal concensus there seemed to be that for "pct", the best option is to just cut out everything. That is, no nolva, no nothing. Just eat healthy and get plenty of rest. Apperantly this is going with the "let the body heal itself" gospel...

Now, I'll be keeping my nolva for any estrogen sides while on the eq, but is there really any clinically proven data that shows that nolva will help as pct? I know it blocks estrogen, but does that directly translate into your test levels improving faster..?

Also, my second question might be even worse as far as my newbie nature shining through... I did my first shot in the quads, I aspirated slowly, and "nothing" came out of the leg... Now, I just slowly injected after this, but what is the "nothing" I am drawing out of my leg when aspirating?

I got a little nervous afterwards thinking it might have been air, although I don't see how I'd have air in my thigh!

If anyone could clear this up I'd greatly appreciate it! And thanks for you continuing contributions, blut wump, appreciate it.

 

[blut wump]

I think everyone wonders where the bubbles come from.

I prefer Clomid at a flat 50mg ED for PCT. I'm no medic but there have been heated debates on here and the end consensus was that Nolva is good for priming the HPTA but Clomid is better for stimulating it to restore production.

If I've not used a nandrolone on a cycle, then I'll run Nolva with my HCG prior to commencing PCT with clomid. If I've used a nandrolone then I'll not touch Nolva, although many do and have no problems. Nolva upregulates the progesterone receptor which can increase the likelyhood of gyno if you are vulnerable via that route.

I'd also recommend a low-dose of a suicidal AI during PCT to inhibit feedback via oestrogen. AIFM and aromasin are fine choices.

I'm sure the current sponsors will pipe up with their own wares but I've not tried the currently-touted ones to be able to recommend them.

During the cycle, high oestrogen levels shouldn't be an issue given that you're only using Eq. Low oestrogen might be an issue, though, since your own test production will be shut down and you'll not be supplementing by adding test. If your libido disappears then consider it likely that you're running low on oestrogen. Aching joints is another common symptom. In general, prefer an AI to using Nolva during the cycle unless you are actually being hit by gyno. Many suggest that a stronger AI such as Letro is more efficacious even in that instance than using Nolva. I don't have a lot of use for Nolva and it can further dampen libido.

I've also seen posts concerning DHB and its effect on hair-loss for some who are susceptible. If your hair starts to fall out then blame the Eq.

 

[Big_Joe]

I read on another forum that in Norway the police can show up in any gym or sporting event and do testing of who ever they want. Is this true? If so how do you plan on getting away with this??

Now this is all internet hearsay so it might just be bs or it might not.

 

[Thoxi]

The anti doping agencies can do tests of any gym or competition, but for gyms they have to hang up a notice saying in what time interval they'll do the testing. (ie. 5th of may to 9th of may.)
Obviously that makes it easy for the juicers to simply stay clear in that period. Steroids are legal to use in Norway, just illegal to sell or import. Kind of like cuban cigars, if I've understood that right.

Thanks for your input on Nolva, but to the "muscle bubbles" ... Safe to inject with them, or should I do something when the aspiration goes "well"?

 

[blut wump]

You could give a little dance, maybe.

Bubbles are normal, nay, desirable. I don't know whether it is actually air out of the muscle or simply vacuolation in the gear due to a pressure drop but the bubbles are what you want to be seeing. The alternative is blood and that would require you to withdraw and inject into a fresh spot.

 

[Thoxi]

10-4, blut.

Did a deadlift of 340 today, new personal record for me by about 10lbs. I know it has nothing to do with the eq, it was probably just the good ol' placebo and the fact I've not done any 1rms for the past few weeks. Might also just be that I've doubled my protein intake, although I think 3-4 days is too short a while even for that.

I'm hoping libido will not be a problem, but if like you say, it does indeed have that effect then the two other atheletes that are about... well a few months in their EQ / winny cycles have not experienced it... They both reported constant erections, something that might become a neusance if I do some training in the pool in public hours...

If libido does indeed become a problem, is test my only option short of cutting the eq? If so, what dosages (preferably something with half times in the EQ range so I can combine the shots) will I have to take... I'm worried by some of the sides testosterone potentially has.. I'm guessing for the half times to match, Testosterone cypionat is the way to go... But then again, 13 day half life might also mean it takes longer to help the libido..?

Alot of questions still... It feels fun to actually be really interested in learing something, although I'm not sure my teacher would be overly impressed dispite my eagerness!

 

[blut wump]

150-200 mg per week of Test E or C should be plenty, less if you use a short ester. Dbol is also an option; really just something to get your E2 levels back up. As you say, you might be fine or more than fine on just the Eq.

I know that there's a table floating around the 'Net stating half lives at 1.5 days per carbon atom. It's completely wrong. Eq has a half-life of around 7 days. Test Enan has a half-life of 4.5 days. Enan or Cyp would be fine. At that dose, you could shoot once per week.

Congrats on the PR.

 

[Thoxi]

That's good, useful information to have there. Thanks!

I will be running 25mg winny ed for 4 weeks because basically that is what I was recommended... However whenever I google for winny or read people's cycles on here you guys run at least twice the doses... Am I wasting my time on 25mg ed for 4 weeks?

I don't really want to talk up my dealer again askin for more, but if I'm really wasting my time with 25mgs, then I might concider it... Also keep in mind this will be my first real cycle, had a short oral only earlier, and I'm under 200lbs so I might not need monster doses!

 

[Thoxi]

Hehe, revised something again. I'll now be taking the winnies in the front, starting today. 25mg ed.

In my quest for the best possible gains, I forgot that it would involve 14+3 weeks of steroids, instead of now doing 14 weeks + the leftovers from the long lasting ester...

Now, before I start popping the winnys, does anyone else see the logic in this? theoretically there'll still be steroids in my blood stream for those last 3 weeks, but I'm guessing this is alot easier on the body, only adding NEW steroids for 14 weeks as opposed to 17 weeks. (Although 14w is pretty long in itself!)

 

[blut wump]

Eq has a relatively long half-life and you are very much still 'on' during that clearance time. As such, your own production is still suppressed and you are not producing your own endogenous aas.

A typical clearance time is three and a half half-lives, more if taking very high doses. Allow even more time for nandrolones, I usually consider 5 to 6.

At a 7-day half-life, it'll take 3 to 4 weeks for the Eq to clear enough for your own systems to start to come back online. A 14-week Eq cycle is a 17-18 week cycle. Taking an oral or short-estered injectible is a way to maintain androgen levels during this period, although not necessary.

 

[Thoxi]

Ah, so running the winnys in the back will not effect my recovery much then, I see.

Would you still recommend I run the 14 weeks of 420? I've read that everything over 12 weeks is going to be a long recovery anyway, and if Eq "kicks in" after 6-7 weeks and "really gets going" at around 10-12 weeks, might it be worth it?

I've read a few articles on cycle lengths and testosterone supression, it seems 6-8 weeks is the barrier, after that you're very much shut down. (I'm guessing this depends on the drug used, too.)

With this in mind, is the EQ really worth it as a standalone? I mean, if I am going to have severely reduced natural production for a long time afterwards, and maybe even see some lowered production long term, are there any safer alternatives to eq for 12-14 weeks? Or is EQ weak enough to where a 14 weeker of it still isn't all that bad, all things concidered?

I'd love to hear some feedback from anyone who did a long cycle like this... Did your natural production bounce back, or was it very lowered permanently afterwards?

The testosterone levels you are stuck with after a cycle depends on drug and the cycle length if I'm understanding this right. Just... How much do the two affect it relatively to eachother? I'm sure there have to be studies, or experiments regarding this... We all love our testies, don't we?

So far the cycle then stands on the 1-14 eq, 14-17 winny and then about a month of PCT. But if anyone has a better suggestion, I'm open to them!