Knee cavein during squat

[wguitarg]

Hey everybody. I have this serious problem when I attempt to squat heavy weight. For example, today was not a great day in terms of top performance. I managed to get my first set of five in my 3 sets of 5 reps workout regimine with 255 full squat. After the third rep my knees will start drifting inward sunstantially and any effort to push them outwards will result in a losss of strength. Even with lighter weights my knees will have the tendancy to drift inward about 1/3 to half-way up the lift. My weakness in my squat also seems to be halfway up, as I literally explode out of the hole with that 255lbs, but it starts to slow about half-way up. I'm not sure what my weaknesses are. Maybe you guys can tell from my current workout numbers. The previos week I squatted with 250 for 3 sets of 5 on deep squats. I did 215 for 2 sets of 6 arched back goodmornings without too much trouble. This week I tried to make the jump to 255 but woundup only finishing 2 sets of 5 with that and then going for 225 for 3 sets of 6 on RDL(felt it alot of my lowerback). Any tips would be much appreciated. Thx. BTW, I'm 18, 195lbs, going on a basic 3x5 rotuine for core lfits and 3 x 4 for deadlift.

 

[spatts]

Knees buckling in during a squat is generally associated with weak hips. Do you do any specific work for hip speed/strength?

 

[wguitarg]

hey spatts,

well, I do powercleans on squat days which does require a massive explosion of the hips, and it is also my best lift a 240lbs right now. I'm actually better at sumo deadlift than conventional, but I've never tried ultrawide squats or anything. It was a strange feeling, when I tried to push my knees out with a lgihter weight on that same squat day, I felt a lot of pressure/strain on the outside of my lower quad, near the knee joint. Anyways, what would you recommend?

 

[Lumberg]

I have always had the same problem...I just do it.

I have noticed since I switched to a gym with only a smith machine that it hasn't happened; doing front squats has really stimulated my lower, outer quads. Perhaps having stronger lower outer quads will help; I will try free weight squatting again soon and see if I still have the same tendency.

In the meanwhile try smith machine front squats for 2 months then see how your free weight squat form is looking.

JC

 

[spatts]

What's your foot position?

 

[wguitarg]

my foot position is slightly wider than shoulder width apart and pointed outward at an angle of 45 degrees. I have tried different foot positions but they dont' seem to help. I will tell you a little bit about my past though. When I was younger I went to an orthopedist about my right hip giving me problems because I used to drag my right leg slgihtly when I walked as a child. He told me to sit with my legs crossed as opposed to indian style I think. My hips will often start hurting after the first set of squats but the pain will subside after the first set or two of warmups. I'm 6'3 with long legs and long arms if tyhat tells you anything, so it could just be that I'm built to deadlift sumo,so it would be higher than conventional regardless of my hip weakness. Maybe you can shed some insight spatts. Thanks so much for taking your time to answer these questions btw, I know it's a long post

 

[louden_swain]

If the knees are coming inwards, it is typically a sign of weaker:

Vastus Medialis
Hips
Adductors

Sometimes the back has a tendency to round or hunch forward to compensate these weaker areas. Strengthen these areas as much as you can. I have had to work hard on these areas myself. If you are interested Dr. Fred Hatfield (Dr. Squat) publishes several texts in regards to the squat.

 

[coolcolj]

work your VMO.

split squats, peterson stepups, deep lunges

 

[dude]

It sounds like you have weak adductors. You can use the adductor machine at your gym if you have one. If not then doing squats with your feet very wide will really work your adductors. You will not be able to use nearly as much weight doing squats in this position so be careful.

 

[spatts]

Adductor machines are inefficient, as this move is best performed with the hips below knee level. There are many other moves better designed to increase hip strength for squat and deadlift.

Dude, to clarify about the width, Westside has always taught a very wide squat to maximize the potential lift. I am only 5'9'' and squat slightly wider than the power rack base. This decreases the ROM, but requires great hip/ham strength. Perhaps you meant HE wouldn't be able to do as much weight in this position with weak hips, in which case you are right. Not that Westside is the end-all-be-all, but the idea is based on physics and tiral & error. Doesn't hurt that it works, too.

 

[dude]

Why would you say that the adductor machine is inefficient. I've used them with much success. Yes, I did mean that if your hips and adductors were weak then you will not be using as much weight.

 

[spatts]

It's not as efficient for building squat strength because it's not on the right plane. Most adductor machines look like they're designed for ladies that still believe in target burning fat. You will never need hip strength in that plane of action.

 

[bignate73]

im confused why adductors might be the culprit. if knees are caving in....thats the motion that adductors do. they adduct the leg. it could be overactive adductors or basically a muscle imbalance. ABDUCTORS/hip stabilizers are probably more aptly weakened. TFL, glute medius, glute max etc. any lateral movement away from midline would be beneficial to keep the knees drawn out during squats. some band work laterally, plie squats, even box squats with focus on keeping the knees wide. check for flexibility issues as well.

 

[wguitarg]

Thanks for all the responses everybody. I hit up some plate slides(slding the weight across my body) on my last workout to try to hit the adductors. Flexibility is definitely not an issue though. I can't prove this, but it's something you'll have to trust me on. I'm thinking another weakness could be the Vastus Medialis, in which case I would hit up some front squats(?). I'm not sure though, but my hips are probably a weakness, so what exercises would be on the same plane. Should I supplement my standard squat form with ultra-wde squats?

 

[spatts]

wg, depends on how you squat. I use very littls quad to squat, so the vastus would be about the least of my concern. Your stance may call for different recruitment though.