Kinesology for overhead presses

[RottenWillow]

How do we maximize the involvement of the deltoids while minimizing the triceps?

My current form: I lower the bar all the way to the front delts then press up to just short of lockout to keep the stress on the muscles. My grip is is thumbs about 1 inch wide of my delts.

It is true that stopping the downward movement of the bar about
1-2 inches above the front delts will keep more continuous stress on the delts? And will slightly widening my grip aid in my goal?
Also, does speed effect the deltoid/tricep involvment to any degree?

Thanks

 

[spatts]

Anya, why are you trying to remove the tris? Why use something as compound as OHPs to isolate the delts?

...and are you talking about db's, bb's, seated, inclined, standing, from a clean, etc?

 

[RottenWillow]

Standing, with a bar.

What else hits all 3 heads as well as the OHP? I do laterals to prefatique but its my understanding that it mainly hits the
medial head.

I have a very wide scapula for a 5'6" woman (44" shoulder circumference) and my shoulders really look noticeably bony. My big chest size just exacerbates the overall effect. Maybe because of my racial mixture I inherited some very odd body dimensions.

 

[spatts]

It's not that there's a better move for delts, per se, it's just not worth trying to jack up the form to take the tris out. When do you do tris?

 

[RottenWillow]

Same day as delts. I work shoulders, chest and ticeps, in that order.

I make legitimate strength gains on chest nearly every single workout but my shoulder gains are extremely slow, hence the order I hit the muscle groups on that day. I can move my arm across my torso and see a noticeable pec bulge at the sternum above my chest but my shoulders and arms are both still bony and thin.

Are these size and strength gain disparities a product of genetics or poor form/workout design?

 

[THeMaCHinE]

How much volume do you do on shoulders? Also, i'd consider moving laterals to after OHPs. There's really no reason to pre-fatigue medials.

 

[spatts]

Ok, then I am REALLY confused. If you work them all the same day, why not put your most compound move up front, followed by your isolation moves? And if you do shoulders first, and you feel like that makes a big difference, then why not rotate the first move every week?

Maybe I'm not understanding the problem correctly.

 

[RottenWillow]

I put shoulders first since they are my lagging bodypart with the poorest gains. Isnt it bb SOP to hit the weak bodypart first when you are mentally and physically at your best?

As for the shoulder workout itself, I put laterals first in an attempt to prefatique the delts since they werent making any size/strength gains at all. Originally I had the laterals after the OHP. Went like that for ~16 weeks, then gains pretty much ground to a halt.

Remember my bench style? I'm wondering if I'm actually overtraining shoulders.

Machine, low volume. Two work sets per exercise and 2 exercises total for delts.

Gotta get off now, but I'll check back in ASAP. Thanks for the input Spatts and Machine.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Laterals will only prefatigue the medials, which in turn will lessen your OHP. No need to prefatigue medials like you would quads because the medials will tire quickly as it is.

I think your volume on shoulders is too low. There are three parts to train: the front, medial and posterior. I think a minimum would be 3 sets each. (i.e. 3 OHPs, 3 laterals, 3 posterior raises).

If you like the prefatigue idea, a more compound movent such as an upright row might make sense over a lateral.

 

[bignate73]

ive dropped laterals altogether. i rely on closer or wider grip OHP, push/presses and back movements to ensure i get all "3 heads". i think my shoulders are the thickest they have ever been, they are definitely the strongest.

 

[wilson6]

In my opinion, the upper arm shouldn't exceed neutral at the bottom position (i.e., parallel with the floor) and the angle at the elbow should be 90 degrees at that point, otherwise the grip is too wide or too narrow. Always front presses, never behind the neck.

W6

 

[Daisy_Girl]

I agree with the thought NOT to prefatigue a muscle you are trying to make grow - it seems like you should put OHP first to maximize your energy level in the beginning of a workout. That way, you can lift the most, and really burn out the delts.

Also, you do them standing, which is great for overall body strength - but why not also try them seated (back supported) so you can lift more weight? That way you can really concentrate on making the delts grow.

Also, I found that my delts started to shape up nice when I added Upright Rows (like Machine said). Done with a curl bar, they are my favorite shoulder exercise - feels great when I do them heavy!

 

[RottenWillow]

So in the OHP the weak muscle link are the medial delts? I have always been told it was the triceps.

Wilson, your response about upper arm not dropping below parallel to the floor is something I remember reading somewhere but has been consistantly contradicted by people around me. Your advice seems intuitively correct to me, but can you explain why not to drop below parallel.?

 

[bignate73]

So in the OHP the weak muscle link are the medial delts? I have always been told it was the triceps.

Wilson, your response about upper arm not dropping below parallel to the floor is something I remember reading somewhere but has been consistantly contradicted by people around me. Your advice seems intuitively correct to me, but can you explain why not to drop below parallel.?

it could be delts or triceps, it depends on the individual and how much pressing/tricep work they have done. i see people who can hold a weight overhead in a position but the dbell literally crashes in on their head. maybe thats a coordination issue, but if you ask them, they say their arms just gave out.