Is the groundfighting becoming obsolete?

[Djimbe]

If any of the strikers your talking about stands up against an MMA fighter on the street like you say, if the MMA fighter is getting his ass kicked as far striking he will take the guy down period.

Dude, if Mas Oyama or Ueshiba met the AVERAGE MMA Fighter on the street he would have slapped the Crap out of them .

And franky , THIS little statement right here is where MMA Fanbois disengage from Reality JUST a lil bit ...

the fact is that MOST MA Systens out there DO deal with Takedowns . They dont do GROUND GRAPPLING as well , or even at all Some times ads BJJ or Judo , Great ., but Throws/Takedowns ? Have you ever SEEN a San Shou match ? A Capoeira Roda ? Silat training ? Push Hands matches ? Push Hands is ALL about the Takedown . Its a Takedown GAME that STARTS in the Clinch . Taijiquan ppl do it ALL DAY LONG . Pretty much EVERRY Chinese system alive today trains tward the San Shou/San Da/Lei Tai ruleset if they arent a McDojo .

WHen I was 14 I beat the HELL out of a Heavyweight Wrestler who was 19 and Wrestling for NYU . The guy had 5 MAN years on me and at LEAST 60 lbs and I nearly killed him . That was using ONLY Wing Chun and it took me about40 seconds to cripple him . He went STRAIGHT for a takedown and I broke his Elbow for his Trouble . It was a Bad Situation all around , and theres more to it than me just whooping off on the guy , but he was PREPARED to Fight , AND he made the first move when I wasnt even expecting it .

Ive worked in Nightclubs for MY WHOLE LIFE either as a Musician , Soundman , or a Bouncer , and Ive NEVER seen all these Dan Gables/Kurt Angles doing these Perfect Takedowns in real Fights . ANd Ive seen ENS OF THOUSANDS of Combatants in real Fights , I started playing Music when I was 9 for money . In fact USUALLY ppl try to stay on their Feet no matter what they know , because they KNOW the Boot is coming if they go down . Either from a Friend , a Bouncer , or some Idiot Stranger that just wants to be Part of the "Glory" . REAL fights dont happen One on One , or in Cages . ANd in REAL Fights people hit you for REAL in The Eyes m Throat and Knees . Whens the last timeyou saw someone Break a Knee INTENTIONALLY in Competition ? Simply put , pl are NICE to each other in MMA and in the Dojo . they DONT target the body the way a Psychopath would , or someone whose sister you just Touched Innapropriately without her consent . And if you hit ME , you can be DAMED sure that my WIFE my SISTER or my MOTHER - WhOMEVER Im rolling with at the moment - is going to Break your Jaw and a couple of Ribs for you before I can even get Annoyed with you .


I live near one of the best Wrestling Rooms in the Country wich has FREE "Open Mat" times 2x/Week . I also live RIGHT next to a couple of the best Wrestling HIGHSCHOOLS in the nation so between the lot there are no SHORTAGE of Good Wrestlers around - were talkign OLYMPIANS here . I go over there and Train from time to time , and Yes , those kids are in better shape than me , but they cant even THINK aout taking me down till theyve Gassed me , wich takes them at least 15 min . And these guys arent Small , either , a few of them over 350 , and PLENTY over 300 . I DONT get to hit them , and they DO get to Grapple me , and I tend to do JUST fine until Im fatigued . ANd I dont care one Whit about subs . Dont know a one that isnt a Perversion of a Standing sub that I know . And guess what ? I always get out . Even if we START on the Floor .

Now the pure striker with no ground experience how is he going to handle a ground and pound on the street or with someone with Grappling background . BTW I have seen ground and pound on the street so is not just on the cage!!.

Umm , by knocking htem down and Pounding the Crap out o them . "Ground And Pound isnt a GRAPPLERs move , its a STRIKERS . It means : "Im not done hitting you yet even though you fell down" Having Balance and being hard to climb out from under isn the Perveiw of ONLY Wrestling BJJ Sambo and Judo . MANY systems know how to Hit and Kick a man when hes down . And KEEP him there .

You just think that the ONLY Standup systems are MT , TKD , and Boxing , none of wich has ANY Takedown game to speak of . MOST MAs deal with Throwing and Takedowns , and anyone that at LEAST deals with any form of San Shou Rules Sparring (wich is EVERY chinese Martial Art) is going to give you a HUGE suprise when you think thatthey "Wont See This Takedown Coming" . The fact is that Most art are devioded into "Striking OR Grappling" theyre usually Devided into "Standing And Ground" . And MOST of them while not being good at Ground Subs DO have a Takedown game . TRY it on a real Silat guy ! Se what he does with you ! Its SO funny to see Wrestl;ers try doule/single legs on Capoeristas because they instantly dismiss it for "Silly Backflipping" and wind up on their Heads !

As far as Dozens of fights if you are somewhat train in boxing or Kickboxer you have a better chance of beating the crap out of any old joe out there that never had any training and cant even throw punch so what your saying doesnt make sense.

What Im saying dosent make sense when you apply "Fantasy Football" type Logic to it . BEING a Wrestler dosent AUTOMATICLALLY make you good at takedowns . There are plenty of GREAT Wrestlers that were never really any good at them , but FLAWLESS at Reversals and Counters ! or any number of OTHER Tactics that cold help them win a Match > hell some guys get through their whole CAREERS with JUST a Cross Faced Cradle !

Where I train lots of street brawlers have come into my dojo and get in the ring they get their ass handed to them by guys who have been training for like a 1 year. But then again the street brawler have been in "DOZENS" of fights and some are even pretty good boxers but no ground experience. That proves a point

No it dosent . It proves the Point that when you get them on YOUR Turf playing by YOUR rules you can do what YOU like . And Im SURE that Conditioning makes a Play in there somewhere as well ! You Wrap their hands up , put them on a Mat , take away their Footing and Weaponry , then say "Look , Were Superior !" BET you if you changes it to bare Knuckled Gearless Lei Tai matches yould still win (Conditining/attributes) more often than not , but by a FAR more Narrow Margin .

In ALL Games the RULES and the FEILD determine the Victor .

 

[gjohnson5]

What Im saying dosent make sense when you apply "Fantasy Football" type Logic to it . BEING a Wrestler dosent AUTOMATICLALLY make you good at takedowns . There are plenty of GREAT Wrestlers that were never really any good at them , but FLAWLESS at Reversals and Counters ! or any number of OTHER Tactics that cold help them win a Match > hell some guys get through their whole CAREERS with JUST a Cross Faced Cradle !
.

That reminds me , I gotta go buy a tshirt that says, "I'll make you tap"

 

[MikeMartial]

Dude, if Mas Oyama or Ueshiba met the AVERAGE MMA Fighter on the street he would have slapped the Crap out of them .

You can't actually state that with any merrit, Djimbe, and you know that. That's the question of the ages...."Would so-and-so beat so-and-so?" I used to argue about Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee when I was a kid.

Thing is, we'll never know. That doesn't take away from the great masters of the past, by any means, but you can't honestly make an assumption like that.

Anyways, I'm off on a tangent. The question at hand....

No, IMO, I don't think groundfighting will become obsolete. I think it's becoming less domnant due to people developing better defense against groundfighting. But that ahrdly makes it obsolete.

To have a striker enter the ring against a striker/groundfighter would be pure suicide. You HAVE to be a well-rounded fighter these days, or you'll get toasted quick.

 

[Djimbe]

dude . He didnt say "Fedor" or "Cro Cop" or "Hunt" . He said "An MMA Fighter" . Basically ANY MMA Fighter .

The fact is that the AVERAGE guy that trains in MMA WOULD get their Asses handed to them in that situation by the 2 ppl I listed . Hell , any but the Top Ten would . And Handily .

The Problem with the MMA Fad is that every stooge that trains in it can gt it into his head hes Arlovsky or Nog .

 

[MikeMartial]

The fact is that the AVERAGE guy that trains in MMA WOULD get their Asses handed to them in that situation by the 2 ppl I listed . Hell , any but the Top Ten would . And Handily .

Like I said before, you can't actually say that, because there's no way one will ever know. No one but the top 10 MMA guys could have beat Mas Oyama? C'mon. He was a pioneer in kyokushin, no doubt. Probably one of the best. And hey, I'm a traditionalist to the core. But I'm also a realist. Athletes evolve over time; one generation is better than the next, and that can be applied to anything.

This may push a few traditionalist's buttons: MMA aside, I'm sure there's hundreds of kyokushin karateka that could wipe the floor with Sensei Oyama in this day and age. And that's style vs style. Throw in a guy who's proficient in BJJ, Sambo or any ground game, and he'd be done like dinner even sooner.

Respect the past masters for who they were and what they accomplished, but don'ty put them on a pedestal that can't be earned.

 

[Djimbe]

Im not putting ANYBODY on ANY Pedestal . Oyama used to go Dojo Storming , and MOST ppl that "Do MMA" SUCK AT FIGHTING . Most ppl that do ANY MA SUCK AT FIGHTING .

Thats just the facts , Jack .

there ARE ppl out there that get in Fights EVERY DAY from the time they first entered Grammars , and they Usu end up in Prisons , etc ... but the fact is that MOST ppl that train in MA do so bcause they SUCK at Fighting , not becaue theyre Great at it .

And as far as that "We Know More about Nutrition now ... yeah , right . I mean , MOST ppl cant take their Vitamis every day - the VAST majority of ppl - INCLUDING MAists eat like shit , man . They dont have their own Nutritionists and whatnot .\

To take my point even FURTHUR the Vast Majority of ppl that train in MMA dont even Compete , and of the ones that do the vast Majority of THEM are Tomato Cans . now , replace that with Boxers , or Wrestlers , or WHATEVER and the statement remains true . for those 50 or so guys whos Videos get Collected and Traded on the net there are THOUSANDS out their SUCKING ASS MIGHTILY .

And NONE of them would get in the Ring with a Goddamned BULL .

 

[Yarg!]

Im not putting ANYBODY on ANY Pedestal . Oyama used to go Dojo Storming , and MOST ppl that "Do MMA" SUCK AT FIGHTING . Most ppl that do ANY MA SUCK AT FIGHTING .

Thats just the facts , Jack .

there ARE ppl out there that get in Fights EVERY DAY from the time they first entered Grammars , and they Usu end up in Prisons , etc ... but the fact is that MOST ppl that train in MA do so bcause they SUCK at Fighting , not becaue theyre Great at it .

And as far as that "We Know More about Nutrition now ... yeah , right . I mean , MOST ppl cant take their Vitamis every day - the VAST majority of ppl - INCLUDING MAists eat like shit , man . They dont have their own Nutritionists and whatnot .\

To take my point even FURTHUR the Vast Majority of ppl that train in MMA dont even Compete , and of the ones that do the vast Majority of THEM are Tomato Cans . now , replace that with Boxers , or Wrestlers , or WHATEVER and the statement remains true . for those 50 or so guys whos Videos get Collected and Traded on the net there are THOUSANDS out their SUCKING ASS MIGHTILY .

And NONE of them would get in the Ring with a Goddamned BULL .

Oh Djimbe...

Theres a video of Mas Oyama taking repeated punches to the face in Kyokushin competition because he never trained for it and the other guy was cheating. (search for it, Im too lazy too).

Alot of facts about Oyama were exaggerated as well such as his stay in the mountains and for his bull fights, he had power obviously, but he also had technique. And it was his special technique verses bulls that let him win- ofcourse, ot many today will get in a ring with a bull though so you got to give him props for still going in.

I highly doubt you have really looked further into the history of MMA competition... but heres a history lesson for you. The Gracie's and their dojo storming was synonymous. They even ran an ad in the paper challenging everyone to come to their school (this was 40s-50s). And style after style after style stepped up.. Karated, Kung Fu, TKD, Capoeira etc etc etc etc and BJJ won time and time and time again. From these challange matches stemmed "Vale Tudo" which meant "Anything goes" and these were basically competitors who were using BJJ and striking, or just plain striking or Luta Livre (look it up) and so on and stepping into crappy little rings and beating the shit out of each other bare knuckle , headbutts, groin strikes, scratches...biting..eye gouges, all allowed.

Hey, why if thats not close to a real fight I don't know what is. Maybe if you're a super French dude and only fenced whenever you fought.... Anyways, needless to say the guys who had a ground game + striking won..always. These things were later banned by the government of Rio, Royce came to the states... showed BJJ to the world via an old school Vale Tudo/Gracie challange match production called UFC 1... from UFC 1 came UFC 2... then PRIDE... then SHOOTO...RINGS. And thats MMA for ya..

And don't bother comparing warriors who've passed on versus the ppl who are still alive... Thats so immature from what I've seen even Sherdog.com (the most immature MA site on the net) frowns upon it. Thats like me say "OMG HOW WOULD BRUCE LEE DO IN TODAY'S RING? OR MIYAMATO MUSASHI AND HIS TWO SWORDS LOLOLOLLROFL!". 'nuff said.

 

[Djimbe]

THE GRACIE's this THE GRACIEs that ... THE GRACIES are a bunch of Rich ppl that have nothing to do but Train in MA ALL FRIGGIN DAY LONG , theyre also a family FULL OF MALES about the same ages and have a SLEW of Sparring Partners that are ALSO So Rich that they have no Jobs and get to TRAIN ALL DAY LONG .

If your style was Poo Fling Do and you got to train all day long your whole frigin life yould be unbeatable too .

MOST ppl dont .

just because you do BJJ dosent make you any kind of Gracie .

 

[Yarg!]

ACtually only Royce and Rickson are loaded. They rest are pretty modestly living... God I hope doing BJJ doesn't turn me into a Gracie because umm... their active fighters are not top 10 ranked int he world (Renzo, Royler, Ryan) and even the pure grappling tournaments are dominated by ppl like Marcelo Garcia and Jacare teams like Alliance BJJ.. BTT...(guys that started at 13, 14, 15-even 17 and joined a school.. like a karate fighter or TKD or Kung Fu etc etc) But you knew that already , ofcourse.

 

[Kane Fan]

I said "Competitive Fighting Ruleset" not "MA Style" . that is totally to the left of my point that I was making .

explain competititve fighting ruleset
you don't mean Judo competitions?
how do you list Judo as a Martial Art and not include what it offers as a Martial Art
in Judo's competition rules submissions are legal so even under what I would recongise as a competitive fighting ruleset the point is the same