Is overtraining a JOKE?

[JKurz1]

OK, heres my question......construction workers......most of the time, these dudes lift heavy ass shit for 8-12 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week.....yet, these dudes (some) get pretty fing big and we know they arent eating 8 times a day..........so, whats the deal? How come we cant train everyday? I mean even if its tris and abs one day, something.........?

 

[BOOEY]

Adaptation, my friend. You think those construction workers got like that overnight? You put stress on your body, your body will adapt. I like the phrase 'overtraining is overrated.' To some extent, this is very true. People like to throw it around on message boards, because it sounds cool: "Oh, you're doing 15 sets of chest? You're definitely overtraining." Or, I love this, "I workout 5 days a week, and I can't grow. Do you think I'm overtraining. By the way, I eat like a 12 year old Vietnamese girl." Can overtraining happen? Of course. Your body needs rest in order to grow. But your body is a fucking machine, and it will adapt, especially if you feed it and sleep enough. I haven't experienced incredible gains until I started doing MASSIVE amounts of sets in the gym. Fuck overtraining. Kiss my ass.

Sorry about the rant, I just hate how EVERY message board is filled with someone suggesting to another that they are overtraining, just based on their workout routine.

 

[JKurz1]

I tend to agree.........to an extent.......I know, personally, I can do cardio every am, and train most pms, and still grow.albeit, not nearly as much as Id like, nor as quickly, but I can.........and the gains tend to be on the leaner side as well i.e. not as much bf% increase..........so, what is your current split, routine and diet like?

 

[H_T_]

a couple of guys i know do cement work, lots of heavy lifting. they are in the gym for an hour total, and probably do 4 exercises max. one of these guys was doing standing overhead presses with 325.

 

[BOOEY]

I tend to agree.........to an extent.......I know, personally, I can do cardio every am, and train most pms, and still grow.albeit, not nearly as much as Id like, nor as quickly, but I can.........and the gains tend to be on the leaner side as well i.e. not as much bf% increase..........so, what is your current split, routine and diet like?

You'd probably grow faster if you ate more

 

[BOOEY]

And it's not just limited to construction workers. Full-time soccer players have gigantic legs. Basketball players have large shoulders. Swimmers have big backs. If overtraining was as real as some people make it out to be, all of these athletes should have no muscle. How do football players survive 2-a-days during training camp and still look huge when the season comes around?

 

[JKurz1]

You'd probably grow faster if you ate more

More? No.........more caloric dense foods, definately.......I eat till I'm stuffed bro, then some more, albeit my fats arent what they should be (although I do down my fair share if peanuts while watching college hoops at night) but my other 7 meals are shakes, high protein, oats and rice.......still go the abless phobia which no one will cure.....guess i have to live with it........

Id also gain 2x as much if I nixed 430am cardio for an extra hour of sleep, but that comes with eating so late at night, guilt.......

 

[JKurz1]

cause they eat their asses off..........exce[t a few, which Im shocked.........every read that MF from a while back with shannon sharpe? Dude was stronger than piss and like sub 5%bf.........he ate 6 times a day but his meals were nill.....maybe full of shit, but he had like 3 MRPs, and 3 meals of chx and rice/potatoes........yet he inclined 405 for reps (so they say) and squated 6+

 

[casualbb]

Few people truly overtrain

There's a distinction that needs to be made... that between overtraining and local fatigue. Overtraining is a state of your entire body. It can occur after a period of some weeks of excessive weight training and also excessive cardio training. The symptoms are poor sleep, declining performance, weakened immune system, etc.

However you cannot "overtrain" any specific bodypart... because, like I said, it's something that happens to your whole body or not at all.

WHat does happen is that individual bodyparts can fatigue. Fatigue is the reduced ability to produce force, and it happens after every lifting session and can last for quite some time. The intensity and duration of fatigue for a particular bodypart depends on the volume and how much failure training was employed. Generally the more of both the more fatigue.

A common post is "I can't make progress on my X bodypart. I do 15 sets. Am I overtraining?" the stock answer is "yes probably." or something

What's probably going on is that the person is doing too much volume to failure and has not recovered from each session's fatigue in time to make strength gains. If they were actually overtrained they would know it and would feel miserable. In actuality they're fine, they just can't make strength gains. They would be benefitted by a reduction in volume and a move towards submaximal training.

 

[eat big]

Overtraining is very hard for me to do. I can see it being possible in an older person who doesn't eat enough. I just always have so much energy. I'm only 18.

 

[coolcolj]

you can overtrain via very heavy loads, even just a single with max weight can do that
or setting a PR in sprinting for example - pushing the body to the limit of its capacity. Even if the volume and training frequency is low
max out every workout and nothing else, and see what happens

or you can overtrain by very high volume with low to moderate loads

they are both different kinds of overtraining and have different effects on the body
But you have to overreach before you can overtrain

 

[JKurz1]

Few people truly overtrain

There's a distinction that needs to be made... that between overtraining and local fatigue. Overtraining is a state of your entire body. It can occur after a period of some weeks of excessive weight training and also excessive cardio training. The symptoms are poor sleep, declining performance, weakened immune system, etc.

However you cannot "overtrain" any specific bodypart... because, like I said, it's something that happens to your whole body or not at all.

WHat does happen is that individual bodyparts can fatigue. Fatigue is the reduced ability to produce force, and it happens after every lifting session and can last for quite some time. The intensity and duration of fatigue for a particular bodypart depends on the volume and how much failure training was employed. Generally the more of both the more fatigue.

A common post is "I can't make progress on my X bodypart. I do 15 sets. Am I overtraining?" the stock answer is "yes probably." or something

What's probably going on is that the person is doing too much volume to failure and has not recovered from each session's fatigue in time to make strength gains. If they were actually overtrained they would know it and would feel miserable. In actuality they're fine, they just can't make strength gains. They would be benefitted by a reduction in volume and a move towards submaximal training.

good post brutha....i like it.....fatigue is a great word, as I know I become "fatiqued" and need a day off of training......could I lift? sure, but it wouldnt be full go......

 

[BOOEY]

Yes, I like "fatigued" much better than "overtraining".

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to casualbb again.

 

[mekannik]

There was one "natural" bodybuilder on here for a month or two who said there was no such thing as overtraining. He went off on anyone who tried to justify a different stance. Happened like a year or more ago.

Obviously he lasted a while.....

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I think I was legitimately overtrained in high school.

Each bodypart twice a week. Every set to failure. A typical Arnold routine actually. Could not gain an ounce. Got dizzy spells for like 5 seconds ever other day it seemed. I was weird and I could never figure it out until now. I was overtrained.

Yes, overtraining is definitely real.

If you just can't lift more weight or have a bad workout here and there, no, you are not overtrained.

 

[DaveTSI]

There is a big difference between fatigue and overtraining, and trust me you CAN overtrain a single BP. Dont believe me? Ill give you a routine for chest that absolutly destroyed mine. After a few weeks my strength plummeted and my pecs felt awful, almost felt torn. It takes heavy loads, high intensity, and a good amount of volume, but when you get there you know it and it sucks.

 

[Slyder190]

Overtraining is a reality.

 

[H_T_]

it's more likely to under-eat.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

True, undereating and not sleeping enough are probably the true culprit for the majority of gym goers you see making no gains.

But, for those of us that know what trianing hard is all aout, you can definitely overtrain either by going to failure too much or too often or both, lifting too heavy(90% or > of 1rm for extended periods), or just way overdoing it with marathon sessions or 2 a days or whatever.

Most of the guys that can't make gains and are generally 180lbs or lighter don't gain because:

A. They do some kind of gay ass musclemag bodybuilding routine and don't eat or sleep enough.

B. Don't monitor their progress or push for heavier weights and don't eat or sleep enough.

or C. Worry about their damn 6 pack too much and don't eat or sleep enough.

Ya, real overtraining is generally not the main culprit.

 

[anthrax]

Of course OT exists

Train chest, or any body muscle group, 5-7 times a week for weeks and see what happens

bust most of the time it's your CNS that is fried before your muscles

 

[JKurz1]

Of course OT exists

Train chest, or any body muscle group, 5-7 times a week for weeks and see what happens

bust most of the time it's your CNS that is fried before your muscles

ok, ok, ok.......you know what I mean........enough with this jack about training chest or whatever for 5 hours a day 7 days a week..........my point was does OT exist, training a different bp daily..........

 

[anthrax]

ok, ok, ok.......you know what I mean........enough with this jack about training chest or whatever for 5 hours a day 7 days a week..........my point was does OT exist, training a different bp daily..........

Once again even if you change BP, training too often/too much "fries"your CNS

 

[BOOEY]

Of course OT exists

Train chest, or any body muscle group, 5-7 times a week for weeks and see what happens

bust most of the time it's your CNS that is fried before your muscles

That's obvious. But what I think jkurz meant and what I was getting at in my post was, overtraining is thrown around like it's a common thing. I remember posting my routine a few months back and I got so many responses telling me that I'd overtrain, but no one asked to see my diet or my sleeping patterns. Actually, I gained some good weight on that routine and I got much stronger.

I think this should be preached more often: Eat well, sleep well, train smart. For example, I can do 20 sets of chest in one day and grow off it. But if I do 5 sets of chest, 4 days in a row, I'll most likely fatigue the muscle so much, that it will not grow. That's what I mean by training smart.

 

[casualbb]

Few people really overtrain. You have to be an athlete, not a casual bodybuilder, to even approach the kind of activity that causes true overtraining. We're talking 2x/day training, extensive cardio. Not like "oh I do this split routine and I have a lot of volume"

 

[seizer]

So what you are saying is i dont need to take a break with my new madcow2-10-week-split?!?! I'm not too good at judging overtraining or whatever, but a 3x a week workout 5x5...would you say i need to take any breaks for the duration of a whole 10 week cycle? (I just hate stalling).

 

[anthrax]

Few people really overtrain. You have to be an athlete, not a casual bodybuilder, to even approach the kind of activity that causes true overtraining. We're talking 2x/day training, extensive cardio. Not like "oh I do this split routine and I have a lot of volume"

Call it fatigue or OT but when you can start getting injured, having tendinitis, loosing sleep, not being able to lift decent weights w/o a 14 WO / week

 

[coolcolj]

the threshold is different for every person

 

[coolcolj]

quoting Poliquin and then Kelly Bagget's reply to Polquin's quote

They used to say, in the early 70’s, there are two types of guys who can train; you have a guy who reacts to volume, and a guy who reacts to intensity. And then, Anatoly Bondarchuk, who used to coach elite level hammer throwers, in fact had Olympic Gold medalists for at least 20 years in a row, said, no, there are three types of athletes: volume, intensity and then there’s a variation type of guy who responds to changing things around. His training system produced the top 6 hammer throwers of all time.

And me, who’s trained people from biathlons to bobsleds, what I’ve found is that there are five types of people, and this is where it ties into Chinese medicine. There are people who need extremely high volume, and even though it sounds paradoxical, they can handle high intensity at the same time, so the average guy like that, could handle 10 sets of 3, and every set of 3 would be at 90% of 1RM. That’s what we call the "Fire" type. These are guys like Adam Nelson who would be very good at the shot put.

The next element is the Wood guy who needs to train high intensity, but doesn’t tolerate volume really well. This is a guy who loved the first two workouts he did with me, but then complained of achy joints, fatigue, mono, etc. after the third. What we do know is to identify the type of person they are, and change their loading parameters before they get overtrained.

Then there’s a type that we call a whore type, that basically....

TC: Excuse me. What do you call him?

CP: Whore (laughing)

TC: Is that one of the Chinese elements?

CP: No, no, basically, he can do anything; a guy who can do high volume–you can beat the hell out of him with volume for 3 weeks, and then beat the hell out of him with intensity for 3 weeks. And the other two elements are wimps and they’re not worth training. I should not call them that, but they are not suited for power sports; they’re suited for swimming, etc. They have a very low tolerance for strength training. For most of the readers of T-Nation, they fall within the first three types.

We can figure all this out with a computer. For example, we have a guy who is 242, 17% body fat, football player, and once we figured out what he was, he showed up at training camp at 266 at 6% body fat. And that’s the first time he’s gotten those results. All his teammates were asking him if he were training for the Mr. Olympia, blah, blah, blah.

And actually he had low Testosterone. The way we trained that guy was one workout was at 100% of volume; the second workout was 80% of volume–reducing the number of sets but increasing the intensity–and the 3rd workout, 40% of volume. So for this guy, only two workouts out of three are somewhat hard.


----------------------------------


There are 3 main factors that determine this:

A: neural factors (muscular recruitment, ability to generate intensiveness)

B: metabolic and structural factors (# of muscle fibers, bone lengths, muscle lengths, ability to put tension on a muscle)

C: hormonal factors (androgen sensitivity, stress hormone levels, ability to quickly store glycogen, ability to repartition nutrients)

Each ranking can be given a ranking of good or poor.

The last 2 types he's referring to have shitty muscular recruitment capacity but still take a long time for their nervous systems to recover. They have shitty structural factors which makes it hard for them to put tension on a muscle rather the joints tend to take the stress. They have small muscle bellies with a small # of total muscle cells per cross section area. They also have shitty androgen sensitivity, elevated stress hormones, and shitty abilities to both store glycogen and repartition nutrients.

The whore would be the guy who is complete opposite particularly with regards to metabolic and hormonal factors.....there woudl be quite a bit of variability in the nervous system proficiency.

The intensity low volume guy is the guy with excellent neural factors yet who's hormonal factors may not be so great.

The volume guy is the guy with excellent hormonal factors, poor neural factors, and variable metabolic and structural factors.

 

[seizer]

this is interesting. is that actually true?^

 

[coolcolj]

yes it is

 

[AirWolf]

yes it is

Wow - this is one of the more interesting things I've read in a while. So - I take it that most ppl on this board will fall into the first 3 types. Now to figure out which we are - I assume we look for our weakness...I would guess that mine is hormonal since I believe I have somewhat low testosterone for my age (not below the normal range...just on the low side of the range). Is that a correct assumption?

And once you are classified how do you build your workout around it. Say I'm a low volume high intensity guy, does that mean HST is the wrong workout for me in terms of adding strength and size? Or is it perfect because it does low volume high intensity for every muscle group 3x week??

 

[big4life]

I think that most of the time over training involves novice people who do not understand what is required to train correctly. They don't understand how diet and rest is just as important as lifting/exercise. They think that if lifting x amount of times per week is good, then more must be better. They end up burned out, or just frustrated at sudden tiredness, then they give up.

I don't see over training much in experienced lifters because most have learned what their body can take, and they set their workouts to that.

 

[WalkingBeast]

The term "overtraining" is way overused IMO. I believe muscles can take alot more abuse then people think. Ive always trained in an all out style and have always made gains this way. My shoulders get the most work of any bodypart and as a result theyve grown the largest. Seems people jump at the opportunity to shout "overtraining". I believe a much larger problem is severe undertraining. If someone asks me why they arent progressing as theyd like, I almost always reccomend higher intensity and volume. Its just whats worked for me up to this point.

 

[WalkingBeast]

Few people truly overtrain

There's a distinction that needs to be made... that between overtraining and local fatigue. Overtraining is a state of your entire body. It can occur after a period of some weeks of excessive weight training and also excessive cardio training. The symptoms are poor sleep, declining performance, weakened immune system, etc.

However you cannot "overtrain" any specific bodypart... because, like I said, it's something that happens to your whole body or not at all.

WHat does happen is that individual bodyparts can fatigue. Fatigue is the reduced ability to produce force, and it happens after every lifting session and can last for quite some time. The intensity and duration of fatigue for a particular bodypart depends on the volume and how much failure training was employed. Generally the more of both the more fatigue.

A common post is "I can't make progress on my X bodypart. I do 15 sets. Am I overtraining?" the stock answer is "yes probably." or something

What's probably going on is that the person is doing too much volume to failure and has not recovered from each session's fatigue in time to make strength gains. If they were actually overtrained they would know it and would feel miserable. In actuality they're fine, they just can't make strength gains. They would be benefitted by a reduction in volume and a move towards submaximal training.

I beleive a muscle can be overtrained individually. But for me that would mean ripping the muscle off the bone. Then Id label it as possible overtraining.

 

[WalkingBeast]

you can overtrain via very heavy loads, even just a single with max weight can do that
or setting a PR in sprinting for example - pushing the body to the limit of its capacity. Even if the volume and training frequency is low
max out every workout and nothing else, and see what happens

or you can overtrain by very high volume with low to moderate loads

they are both different kinds of overtraining and have different effects on the body
But you have to overreach before you can overtrain

Good information! My training partner got his bench up to 455 at a 185lb bodyweight, and raw, by maxing EVERY week for the last 3 years or so. He couldnt even bench 315 unassisted before that. Ive made some huge strength gains training this way on various deadlifts and on the flat bench as well. Though my flat bench gains were much slower then the deads. Ive always trained unconventionally anyway. Mainly because I do things in my own way. Feel things out. I was getting good results by switching things up as well though, on flat bench. I always attempt a max, but I cycle my focus between rep PR and One Rep Max PR attempts. I agree though, most people are hardly pushing themselves. They shouldnt even be considering the possibility of overtraining.

 

[SPORT SCIENTIST]

Of course OT exists

Train chest, or any body muscle group, 5-7 times a week for weeks and see what happens

bust most of the time it's your CNS that is fried before your muscles

I agree, just because some people train "excessively" and get results, doesn't mean that they are training optimally. Training facillitates an adaptive response. However if this stimulus (the degree/extent) of the training is too great, positive adaptation will be retarded, the body taking longer to recover. If a period of recupperation is not alotted, extreme fatigue and hormonal imbalance will occur. Should this be taken to a severe extreme e.g a cyclist trying to emulate Lance Armstrong, it can even result in death. Drugs play a large part in allowing people to train longer and harder, without experiencing the negative effects. Just as an aside, athletes that undergo extensive 30hour trining programs, do the majority of their training at low intensity. I believe that the intensity of training is a crucial factor. Most bodybuilders do 8-12 reps/set. This is not going to efect the CNS/hormonal balance/cortisol levels to the same degree as a standar 1-5 rep powerlifting routine. Again, going to failure, and the duration of the negative (the negative portion of the lift cause more micro-fissures and tears than the positive) have a lot to do with predicting possible overtraining outcomes, as too do the individuals genetics. If we all tried to train exactly like Arnold, how many of us do you think would have the energy to continue beyond 2 months? Most would be completely burned out, with stagnant muscle growth or even losses. Having said this, the amount of food we eat really is an important factor.

Workmen eat a lot of junk, getting many calories. The body of a top athlete, becomes accustomed to stress over time. people respond well to low levels of stress at first, but need to increase their training load over time, in order to improve gains. Workmen, through consistant hours of hard graft, adapt. Of course, doing manual labour with weight training is not ideal. I actually had a friend at my old gym, who was a labourer. He placed in the top 15 of the natural middleweight division at the European natural championships (he was huge, but only about 5 foot 5 inches) - actually won best abs in show - 4% body fat.

 

[riverrock]

Adaptation, my friend. You think those construction workers got like that overnight? You put stress on your body, your body will adapt. I like the phrase 'overtraining is overrated.' To some extent, this is very true. People like to throw it around on message boards, because it sounds cool: "Oh, you're doing 15 sets of chest? You're definitely overtraining." Or, I love this, "I workout 5 days a week, and I can't grow. Do you think I'm overtraining. By the way, I eat like a 12 year old Vietnamese girl." Can overtraining happen? Of course. Your body needs rest in order to grow. But your body is a fucking machine, and it will adapt, especially if you feed it and sleep enough. I haven't experienced incredible gains until I started doing MASSIVE amounts of sets in the gym. Fuck overtraining. Kiss my ass.

Sorry about the rant, I just hate how EVERY message board is filled with someone suggesting to another that they are overtraining, just based on their workout routine.

I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying. Yes, a persons body will adapt, but it will also learn to "cope". Those same builders stop growing after a while as their body adjusts to the same stress and work. Similar to how we must change our programs every 6 weeks or so. Also, you can overtrain, but your right, the word does get fcked around alot. Still, the muscles need time to recover between workouts. GOOD POST!

 

[Tryn2]

What about CNS overtraining ?

 

[super_rice]

What about CNS overtraining ?

i think that's what they've been talking about the entire time

 

[TheOak84]

my 2 training partners work contruction, they just finished working on soldier field. anyway, they work long ass hours, and dont get much sleep and eat like shit. but are gynormous, like little francos. they work out just as hard as me or anyone else even though they are burnt out from work, and still continue to make gains, not so much in size, but in strength, hell ya.

i tell them to ease up on training 5 days a week and eat more, they say bah, im strong, i dont need to change, blah blah.. hard heads. if they take my advice i bet theyll see a difference. they are my best friends, but dumb as hell when it comes to gaining muscle. natrually strong as ox's but hardheads.

anyway, id say adaptation suits this story.

 

[wootoom]

i know guys that work on the oil rigs and they do hard work for 12 hours and they are big but in a different way. there not cut by no means. its hard on there body also. lots of injuries. i tend to see most of my gains while resting