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Is form overated???

P

psychedout

New member
I watch videos like The Unbelievable, and see Ronnie using a lot of momentum while doing bb rows, or db laterals, and it has got me thinking.

Is form really that important??I mean providing your not bouncing bench presses off of your chest, can you tax a muslce even more using so called poor form??

Just look at how the old timers like Arnie did seated cable rows for example-- momentum gallore. And you can't argue with his results.

I would like to here opinions on the business of form, and how you feel about it and why.
 
I like to use good form for safety reasons. Injuries occur too easily without it. I actually was thinking the same thing when watching Ronnie doing his workouts. Those T-Bar rows.... I watched Yates today for the first time and he has good form but realised ALL big guys CAN`T go full range of motion. That`s another point to b looked at. ROM is also overrated to an extent.

If I`m doing a set to past failure I will cheat to get the weight up on the last two reps and slowly lower the weight. That`s about it.
 
I do the best form I can while still having the lift be "comfortable" due to my size I can't do some of the text book form exercise becasue they impinge on my joints. So basically use the most appropriate form for you that keeps you from hurting yourself but don't get caught up in the so called perfect form.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
Good question, Psychedout.

I'm a stickler for clean form, and have been more or less for the last 11 years.

However, I think if you're adding weight to the bar and you're not cheating THAT damn much, you're fulfilling progression--and progression's all you need. The only time cheating really bothers me is when it's ALL someone can do to lift more weight.

All else I'd caution against is extrapolating what works for Ronnie = what works for the rest of us. Ronnie was a genetic freak before he ever heard of D-bol, and now that he's fully loaded, his methods might not be ideal for those of us 9 or less on the 1-10 genetics/drugs scale.
 
Yes... as long as what you do is safe and you do it consistently, then whatever. Just make sure you never cheat on the eccentric (such as dropping the weight), because that's what causes the actual growth.
 
If you want to real heavy, then yes, it's critical.

You want to to do a million reps at a lighter weight, maybe not so critical.
 
If you're not intruding on safety. If you want to cheat curl, no problems in my opinion. However, to cheap and bounce a bench as forementioned, then yes form is important. This is because you'll break a rib.

God knows what'll happen if you go ahead and bounce around with squats and deads, so that goes without saying...

Isolation is very understandable.
Compounds not so much (except for militaries, I'd say... not as bad)

Bench, Squat, Deads, Oly Lifts, SLDL/RDL, Good Mornings - Use good form always

Curls, Upright Rows, Extensions, Kickbacks, Leg Curls, Leg Extensions, Hammer Curls, Wrist Curls, Heel Raises, Pull-ups, Rows, Shrugs - not necessary.
 
WalkingBeast said:
Vastly overrated
Click to expand...

I don't want to come off wrong here so I'll tread lightly. Perhaps this feeling that form is overrated is the reason why your back isn't healing. I know you like to go heavy on deads and form is absolutely critical on a lift like deads. Here you sit with a nagging back injury. Perhaps it's time you rethink your approach on form?
 
I would consider myself to have great form. People that are in the gym doing stupid things just look like jackasses - there's no getting around it. One time I noticed this guy dancing, I was like wtf? turns out he was doing standing dumbbell curls.

That example is certainly different than Ronnie Coleman using momentum though. I am sure his motions are controlled throughout his lifts.
 
crew9 said:


I don't want to come off wrong here so I'll tread lightly. Perhaps this feeling that form is overrated is the reason why your back isn't healing. I know you like to go heavy on deads and form is absolutely critical on a lift like deads. Here you sit with a nagging back injury. Perhaps it's time you rethink your approach on form?
Click to expand...

I agree with you about form being very important in deadlifts. When mentioning my injury I attributed it mostly to bad form. My form got sloppy on a deadlift with the bar behind the legs with 600lbs. This lift is awkward as is, and its sometimes hard to know exactly what form to use. I was in a bad position and I tried to fight it. I definately make an exception for deads. But I dont think form is near as important as its made out to be by many. Form was very important for me in the beginning of my training, but as Ive advanced I feel "cheating" can be beneficial at times. Ive seen some beginners cheat every rep of every movement, and I by no means advocate this. In 9 years of training Ive never injured myself on any other cheat, or semi cheated movements, other then those beast lifts in december. When doing barbell curls for example, I feel those few extra cheated reps really help exhaust the biceps for that set, or even all out cheat curls are a great exercise to throw into a routine. I also have done slightly bentover rows with some jerky form and felt them nice. I definately think it has its place, but shouldnt be the only way of training.
 
For me form is crucial. Form is everything. The only exception for me would be a little swing towards the end of a set of curls and a little push or jerk towards the end of a set of MP`s. I like to call it strategic cheating.
 
I feel as long as youve got your mind-muscle thing going and you can "feel" what muscle you are working, then you can sacrifice some form to an extent.
Most of the pros have worked so many years, they know how to work each muscle properly even if sloppy.
 
Let me revise my perspective:

Cheating can be safe. But it's impossible to know which degree of cheating you can do before it starts to become dangerous. So I'd say stick to perfect form just because it's the only way you can be 99% sure you won't injure yourself.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
Nice name, Dave.

Beast man, what's the point of a "beast lift"?
Click to expand...


Works most of the same muscles of a deadlift but without the knees in the way. Able to move more weight. It can be dangerous though. As far as I could see, I pioneered the lift, cuz I saw illustrations of a hack squat that were nothing like the way I was doing the lift. I dont squat with the legs much at all, mostly lower back. So when exploring a new area theres always risks. Never saw anyone mess around with weights even remotely close to what I was using on that lift, or even try it for that matter. Im sure Ill still do them again when I recover. Ill just be smarter about my form.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
Nice name, Dave.

Beast man, what's the point of a "beast lift"?
Click to expand...
he can outlift anyone at the "BEASSST LIIIFT" because no one else does it or knows how to:D

so in summary, bragging rights:)
 
yeah i saw some hack squat illustrations today and i thought about your "beast lift"

I have a better picture of it now that you cleared up the details (you use more back)
 
SublimeZM said:
he can outlift anyone at the "BEASSST LIIIFT" because no one else does it or knows how to:D

so in summary, bragging rights:)
Click to expand...

ThanX brother!! Its pretty simple really. All I do is lift the bar off the floor to full extention, bar goes behind the legs. Not much else to it!
 
ChewYxRage said:
yeah i saw some hack squat illustrations today and i thought about your "beast lift"

I have a better picture of it now that you cleared up the details (you use more back)
Click to expand...

I have some pictures of the lift, but only at lockout and the starting position. So not very helpful. I wanted to get some video up before injuring myself! Heres a few pics with 590:

78b3faaf9390c22269b372d8fef4a0dd.jpg


007728320f3a3dbcf49bb1dd131a1197.jpg
 
Ok guys something from personal experience:
A guy was doing lateral barbell rows, at the gym where I work,a nd ended up pinching one of the nerves in the spine causing temporary parlization! He was using heavy weights and used the momentum, by lunging his entire body forward, creating the dreaded arched back! I am a firm believer in having proper form no matter how experienced you are.

Cheat all you want, but its going to catch up to you some day, and you will be sorry.
 
if you want to look "cool" and do more weight at the gym, then no. but if you actually want to work the muscles properly and look better physically then yes it's important
 
Form and ROM of motion is absolutely essential!!!!!

I treat & train people from 15 - 85 years old and most of the guys who come in are early 30's & up with every conceivable injury and except for the direct contact sports related one's - they are all due to bad form.

Bad form usually dosen't cause immediate injury (unless it is really bad) , it produces slow long term injuries.

The best way to think about it is that it is like driving a car with the alignment that is off, you just keep wearing surfaces out untill they give out.

A lot of guys just train to be big and do anything to get the weight up. Give them 10-30 years and they will be regretting it.

Athletes with bad form and decreased ROM are going to decrease performance over time and risk seriuos career ending injuries.

Every day I have to stop some knucklehead doing heavy shoulder flexion / back extension (you may call them cheat curls) in the squat rack and go through a detailed explanation of what they will eventually wind up like. - I fucking hate idioits who tie up the squat racks & power rack for curls!!!!!!!!!! (especailly when I have people who need to squat & deadlift - which is every client, regardless of age!)

Sorry, got off on tangent.

So, yes form is crucial - take it from a former meathead lifter / hockey player / soccer player / baseball player.

If I would have had better form and not some instruction from an idiot coach and stretched more I would not be spending thousands on ART, Rolfing, PT & massage to get my range of motion back

S
 
As long as you're not injured you can't realize how much good form is important

Once injured it is too late.........
 
Yeah, unfortunately I only realized that a few years ago!

remember you can not train with or through an injury! (only rehab it which is not really training)

S
 
the heaviest weights recorded were not lifted with bad form. but alot of misses are created by bad form.

try twisting your body on a 500+ lb bench press and watch what happens. see what happens if you get out of your groove on a 600lb squat. things happen faster than you can imagine/correct for.

bottom line: stick with good form and progress strengthwise accordingly.

if you want to "burn in" those extra reps to take the muscle further, do a drop set or partial.
 
Nonerz said:
the heaviest weights recorded were not lifted with bad form. but alot of misses are created by bad form.

try twisting your body on a 500+ lb bench press and watch what happens. see what happens if you get out of your groove on a 600lb squat. things happen faster than you can imagine/correct for.

bottom line: stick with good form and progress strengthwise accordingly.

if you want to "burn in" those extra reps to take the muscle further, do a drop set or partial.
Click to expand...

Great post!! Good to see your still around! Hows trianing been?
 
mmm, i somewhat agree with the always train with good form, but i don't, and i get results in my size and strength. i think you guys are right about keeping good form on deads, squats, benches, but other exercises lend themselves well to cheating. ever tried superheavy laterals? damn do they work well. or rowing with a little swing, like ronnie does? that works well too. i've tried staying superstrict, and i didn't make any good strength gains. if i cheat a bit i make progress. personally, i don't care if others cheat or not, and i say the only reason this is such a touchy subject is because

a) people feel angered when someone states a poundage on an exercise they cheated on (to which i say, who the hell cares what someone says they can do, worry about yourself)

b) people automatically assume that when someone is lifting heavy and cheating that they are only doing it to satisfy their egos! come on guys, let's not always jump to such quick conclusions. once again, who the hell cares if someone is cheating just to satisfy their ego? nevertheless, i cheat and i don't think it's just to satisfy my ego, it is because i a) love that feeling of handling a little heavier weight and having to concentrate hard on what i'm doing b) making progress in my strength, which, as previously stated, progresses much more quickly when i put some cheating in. i see people using great form in the gym never progressing for years; meanwhile, i am in the corner, continually making strength gains and lifting bigger weights.
Finally, i wonder why some people are so quick to jump down "cheater's" throats and claim that they are only working their egos, while neglecting to mention the "flexers" who spend more time checking themselves out in the mirror flexing their abs/chest/bis/tris/shoulders/EGO!!!!!!!!! everyone lifts for different reasons, and being overly concerned with what those reasons are for others is pety and immature. Please don't take this as a flame to anyone, because i know i've been annoyed with others for their reasons for lifting too. i say, to each his own (don't you just love cliches?). go to the gym, focus on your own development, and don't worry about others. later.
 
Form= prevents injuries, Less injuries=more training time, less rehab=quality training time, more quality training time=more growth
 
Nonerz said:
the heaviest weights recorded were not lifted with bad form. but alot of misses are created by bad form.

try twisting your body on a 500+ lb bench press and watch what happens. see what happens if you get out of your groove on a 600lb squat. things happen faster than you can imagine/correct for.

bottom line: stick with good form and progress strengthwise accordingly.

if you want to "burn in" those extra reps to take the muscle further, do a drop set or partial.
Click to expand...

oops. that was me. i was over at nonerz'ssess house last night posting. gotta remember to log her off otherwise she could get in trouble. hehehe

shes doing alright. busy with work. planning on doing a PL meet in april, so we are getting ready for that. (well she's doing the work):)
 
bignate73 said:


oops. that was me. i was over at nonerz'ssess house last night posting. gotta remember to log her off otherwise she could get in trouble. hehehe

shes doing alright. busy with work. planning on doing a PL meet in april, so we are getting ready for that. (well she's doing the work):)
Click to expand...

:FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol: Nice. Best of luck with the meet!!
 
squatpukesquat:

here are your reasons:

flexers: no one cares about these jokers because they generally arent talking about lifts.

cheaters: if someone earnestly gets a lift with strict form, they earned it. if someone is actually talking about a lift they do, but they lose 10-50lbs if they get strict, where is the ego now? some people are very proud of their lifts, earned every lb lifted. though it is an individual thing, its also a rite of passage. if you earn a lift, you dont like to see someone come along and claim the same lift with crap form. so, yeah, i guess its a pride thing.
 
I agree with big Nate; some of the hunchbacks in my gym give me shit because I only curl (I rarely do arm work any way) between 90 & 100 pounds.

But I do it back against the walll, scapula retracted & depressed, head up, elbows locked to my side & drag the bar up the front of my body.

They do 135 + hunched forward swinging the weight using almost 100% shoulders & low back. - these are also the same jackasses who squat, row, shrug & deadlift in the Smith machine and think their actually accomplishing something other then providing me with ammunition for more jokes & real life examples of everything not to do in the gym

I use these neanderthals to increase my training clientele by providing live demos of bad posture and injury formation.

I just laugh & tell them when they can stand upright come & see me for a real workout!

Lord Suston had an excellent summary of why form is the key!

S
 
ok big nate and supreme, i can see how you'd get pissed if some asshole in the gym was bugging you 'cause he can purportedly lift more than you, yet they squirm their way to get the weight up. that, understandly, would piss me off too. i've never encountered that type of shit in a gym, and I would hate to have to listen to someone spout off about their lifts, regardless of whether it was "clean" or not. personally, if someone asks me what i can lift, i say to them "well, how many reps are you talking? and what type of form? (if they're asking about squats, i'll say) how low are you talking now?" generally, people asking me about the weight i can lift (which, i don't readily disclose because i don't give two fucks who knows what i can do) become so tired of my questions to them that they stop asking before receiving a definite answer. I may be proud of the hard work I put in to my weight training/any other facet of my life, but I am not proud of the weight I lift, or of my appearance. Why, you may ask? Well, the way i see it, everyone has different genetics, and some are better "equipped" scientifically to acquire a greater looking and performing body than others. therefore, my performance and appearance rank extremely modestly on the hierarchy of human being bodily performances/appearances, so I would be distraught when making such comparisons; rather, by gauging my work ethic and nothing else, I concern myself with the one true aspect of my life which is entirely within my control. as for the jackoffs who you guys mentioned in your posts, i say to them "if you think you're bad, go look at a powerlifter lift, and then go watch ronnie coleman flex. not so bad now, are you?"
 
Yes, form is critical. Absolutly critical. You know it is. Think about what you are in the gym for - and this goes for the PLs on every day except competition day.

You don't go to swing the most weight, you go to get stronger. You get stronger by tearing the muscle fibers. You tear the muscle fibers best by not cheating, by not using 'momentum.' If you do that, you are wasting your damn time and money.

Plus there is the additional strain that using mo' can cause, and possible injury due to moving the weight incorrectly.

It's just stupid, no matter how you cut it. I'm really surprised by all the answers to the contrary here (I just skimmed page one).

Oh - and WHY do the pros do it in the videos? Because, there *is* a video camera there and they want to look good. So that means moving more weight and moving it faster than usual. Camera's make people do stupid stuff. Just watch a trash TV show or a televised trial in LA.
 
Synpax said:

Oh - and WHY do the pros do it in the videos? Because, there *is* a video camera there and they want to look good. So that means moving more weight and moving it faster than usual. Camera's make people do stupid stuff. Just watch a trash TV show or a televised trial in LA.
Click to expand...

Very true

Same thing with the guys in the gym trying to show up in front of their friends and the hot chicks :D
 
I think one of the ealier posts said it best that some excercises lend themselves fine to "cheating" while others don't.

I you look at the WSB guys's rolling tri extensions with dumbels, it is really just a lying tri extension, using a lot of 'cheating' or 'momentum' from their lats among other things. They have found these to be very beneficial (to accomplish their goals) --- which is ultimately what we are after right?

There is undoubtably a difference (though sometimes hard to immediately tell) when you're in the gym, between people who lift what is benefical and people who lift to stroke their egos.
 
collegiateLifter said:
There is undoubtably a difference (though sometimes hard to immediately tell) when you're in the gym, between people who lift what is benefical and people who lift to stroke their egos.
Click to expand...

Best post yet on this thread.......
 
I'm starting to wonder what everyone here means by "good form." Because when i watch others in the gym, it doesn't seem like they're using "perfect form." now is that what we're talking about? perfect form? because if that's what we're talking about, i've yet to see more than a handful of lifters in my LIFE lift with perfect form, and then, they only do this on specific exercises. maybe i should have asked this earlier. but saying that cheating is STUPID is naive. maybe weightrainers are a little too pontifical for my tastes.
 
Good form vs. perfect form??

this is a judgement call that varies between each lift & person

I see the only difference is that perfect is present on every rep of every set and never deviates.

Good form is doing the exercise with NO cheating. you use the correct muscles to move the weight with no assitance, momentum (unless explosive Olympic lifts) or a spotter doing 1/2 the work.

You are able to maintain the necessary aligmnment of the knees, pelvis, shoulder girdle and head. The TVA has correct tension and breathing is controlled i.e no grunting, screaming or associated animal noises to gain attention to your lift. When you lose the form you stop the set - thus preventing injury and the formation of bad motor programs


Good form is training your muscles and not your ego!


s
 
WalkingBeast said:

78b3faaf9390c22269b372d8fef4a0dd.jpg

Click to expand...

No offense intended bro, but I think this could be the reason for you injuring your back. Tread lightly, many powerlifters who did rounded back deadlifting consistantly ended up getting their spines fused.
 
Form is important but so is being explosive. Muscles should be trained explosively. That is the best way to recruit the maximum number of fibres.
 
I agree, but you can be explosive with good form. Olympic lifts are the most explosive and require excellent technique i.e form.

I went to USA weighlifting to learn Olympic weightlifting and the whole weekend was spent learning proper form; of course it was explosive but technically precise.

It is the execution of technique that seperates the Gold medals from the silver & bronze.

S
 
Power = weight X distance / time
 
Exactly, and for most of the Olympic pulls the fastest time will come from the shortest distance. Which means correct alignment of the body and path of the bar.

S
 
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