INTRODUCTION TO SHUAIJIAO !!! (Attn : Judo Tom)

[Big Rick Rock]

Ok... One more thing. You just can't go around kicking people from the street to demostrate a technique...

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrel...s/tj_day_05.wmv


I would never ever let one of these McDojo -Strip-Mall-senseis show any techniques on me in a park in front of a crowd... But if I did volunteer to let him show his "Dark power"(as the guy on the mic puts it) and he just kicked me on the hamstring like that... There would have been a fight right then and there. I would have destroyed that dude.



-BRR

 

[Djimbe]

yeah those are demo's and i couldnt get the tournament footage to load that is what i was more interested in..

i mean a sprawling demo in front of a crowd is not too exciting..

the style looks pretty interesting!

do you guys practice just pure throws/subs enough that you could compete in a naga style tournament or even bjj/judo/sambo? just curious

I think that in a NAGA type situation the Subs would be the place thats not covered . Groundwork insnt the styles wont , and most of what IS there is with the design of escaping , or getting the other guy under you to deliver a strike , stomp , (historically) stab with a weapon , etc. .

Sorry about the Teaser , JW must have taken the Tourney stuff down , and as Im having MAJOR comp Issues I cant get to a LOT of my Data , and it may be a couple of months till I can , but when I can , if youre still online Ill P2P them to you , or perhaps even Drop a CDR by since I have to drive through Jersey to go to classes in NYC .

thanks again!!

oh btw i lost my last match for 1st in a judo tournament last weekend it was as i shot a 'sloppy' double (also my 5th of the match..BIG MISTAKE)

this isthecounter to a double that was used against me
http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/tawaragaeshi.htm

Wow , 5 DL shots in one match ? What happened , was it like , you know, when a Song gets stuck in your head and you just cant think of anything else ? Did he have some Tendency that made you REALLY want that double ? What was your Mindset ?

 

[Djimbe]

Guys,


I don't want to sound like a dickhead or anything but I just don't see any of those moves working on a real fighter.

You know whats funny ? I cant IMAGINE a Jab "working" on a real Opponent either ... I mean , you could just step backwards and avoid it , right ? ... A Hip Throw ? I mean , you just swing your outside leg backwards and sink down onto your lead knee ... a "Round" kick ? you just step in to the Opponent and blunt the dam ....

Looking at those videos I just learned that all of my wrestling and vale tudo coaches were wrong about how i should defend agains a double leg!

No , you SHOULD have learned that there is more than ONE way to skin a cat , an Ill wager that your "VT" coaches are all wrestlers in disguise ... Ive seen similar Mechanics out of Militech's camp , and from Sudo and co.

I was always tought to sprawl my hips away and stuff the head or dig in deep with a cross face and work to break the guy's grip... I seems like I was wrong!

Why so dramatic ? That works , but it also has certain , predictable residual effects , there are other ways that ALSO work , and yet have OTHER residual effects - like leaving your hands more useful as offensive weaponry and not tying your balance in with that of your opponent .

The guy in the park just grabbed his opponent by the head and threw him to his back when they guy went in for a double leg... Geez, why didn't any of my coahces or instructors ever teach me that stuff.

1) because its Illegal in your Sport
2) Because it wouldnt actually get you any points , because you need to have "Control" of your Opponent in your Sport .
3) because Releasing him would give him a chance to Reset , or leave the circle .

People , ESPECIALLY wrestlers & Boxers tend to forget that the best thing for ONE kind of Tactic set inst going to be the UNIVERSALLY best thing . Your way IS best if your goal is to keep body Contact and try to place your opponent on his back .

Oh , and by the way , that works to take down a BULL , and yes , it also works on Humans . If you do it all Half-assed and Faggey then no , it WONT work , but if you go Full at it they do what you want them to pretty quick like .

I don't know, maybe I'm just too close minded. I just don't see the stuff in these links as being effective.


-BRR

Once again , Effective for what ? Im SURE that it dosent fit into your Gameplan . Thats the reason you have been taught to deal the way that you have . Ive SEEN Tim Silvia (amongst others) use the exact type of moves youre scratching your head at here to free himself up to throw more Punches at his opponents . Game Plan dictates Technique . When you study a certain sport fo a long time then a lot of universally viable techs are gling to be discarded . I mean , why the HELL would a wrestler need techs designed to create Punching room ? Hes never going to throw one .

 

[Djimbe]

Bro... When I shoot double leg on somebody:

-My legs are not straight with my back bent like the "attacker" in the video.

-I don't reach down and stop my forward motion waiting to be countered.

If I shot a double leg on this guy, his feet would have left the ground and he would be traveling sideways 2-3ft off the ground before he even had a chance to get his arms around my head.

I don't think I'm a bad ass Martial Artist or tought guy or anything... Just that some of the videos on those links show techniques that go against everything I have come to know about hand to hand encounters...

I still can't get over watching videos where these Aikido instructors toss people around and even make them do full 360 flips in mid air all while holding the guy at arms length...
I have a hard enough time tossing guys when I'm locked around their body and I'm using my hips to leverage them over, I can't ever imagine throwing somebody head over heels when my arms are extended and holding on to their shirt collar...
Maybe that stuff only works on students that know to fly thru the air when the teachers pulls at their Gi. Maybe it can be done against a real life resisiting opponets... Until some dude grabs me by the wrist and flips me across the air I won't believe in that stuff.

Again... I don't want to offend anybody or piss any of you off. I'm just voicing an educated opinion.


-BRR

Ahh , Lest you forget , NO ONE was moving full speed , or Force . Why ? Because the crowd at a demo is FULL of uintrained Onlookers that would blink and miss what was going on .

Yeah , the should would be faster . The defender should would ALSO move faster .

Theyre also not TRYING to hurt one another . Lets put it in a different light ...

When you Suplex your Teammates you do NOT slam them down like you do Opponents in real Matches . Dosent mean you CANT , just means you have to see these people every day , and eventually put YOUR safety in THEIR hands at some point .

Try this :

Get a wrestling Partner whos pretty "game" .

Get him to lock his hands under one of your Knees .

lower yourself over that knee until that thigh is parallel to the ground .


Make your back leg stick STRAIGHT out behind you , so that ALL your weight is on the front one , and its just for Balance , but allow it to move/pivot side to side .

Fold your Arms . Have someone ELSE say "Go" and you reach down and try to Crank his head off his neck to the direction away from your Centerline (if youre using your Right leg twist the head Counterclockwise , if the left Clockwise) At the same "Go" he tries to Single-Leg you . IF youre not a Pansy about it and you TRULY go at him , and dont Stiffen up because you dont "Believe" it will work" , then I think you will be AMAZED at the results . Its SO simple . Just Palm under the Chin , Find the Opposite point on hte back of The head , and TWIST like you used to see the Ninjas do in the bad 80s movies to "Break Necks" . it wont brak his neck , but it WILL break his body connectivity .

AFTER you practice that one until its yours Ill give you another .

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Ahh , Lest you forget , NO ONE was moving full speed , or Force . Why ? Because the crowd at a demo is FULL of uintrained Onlookers that would blink and miss what was going on .

Yeah , the should would be faster . The defender should would ALSO move faster .

Theyre also not TRYING to hurt one another . Lets put it in a different light ...

When you Suplex your Teammates you do NOT slam them down like you do Opponents in real Matches . Dosent mean you CANT , just means you have to see these people every day , and eventually put YOUR safety in THEIR hands at some point .

Try this :

Get a wrestling Partner whos pretty "game" .

Get him to lock his hands under one of your Knees .

lower yourself over that knee until that thigh is parallel to the ground .


Make your back leg stick STRAIGHT out behind you , so that ALL your weight is on the front one , and its just for Balance , but allow it to move/pivot side to side .

Fold your Arms . Have someone ELSE say "Go" and you reach down and try to Crank his head off his neck to the direction away from your Centerline (if youre using your Right leg twist the head Counterclockwise , if the left Clockwise) At the same "Go" he tries to Single-Leg you . IF youre not a Pansy about it and you TRULY go at him , and dont Stiffen up because you dont "Believe" it will work" , then I think you will be AMAZED at the results . Its SO simple . Just Palm under the Chin , Find the Opposite point on hte back of The head , and TWIST like you used to see the Ninjas do in the bad 80s movies to "Break Necks" . it wont brak his neck , but it WILL break his body connectivity .

AFTER you practice that one until its yours Ill give you another .

Sounds good... I'll see if I can get one of the guys I practice with to let me crank his head over from the "all american" position the way you described.

I still think there are a couple of problems with this technique working on a real live trained fighter who is resisting my movements.

1- You want us to start from a position where he has already has my leg and I have been able to effectively position my legs to execute this move.... One of the things I refered to was momentum from the shot itself. When a guy who know his shit takes a shot he never stops moving or readjusting his position long enough for me to COMMIT both hands to his head...
Noticed I said commit because once I make both my hands "busy" trying to find his chin and crank him over, I'm giving up valuable split seconds that I could use to overhook the near arm and stuff his head down or work to break his grip with my other hand.... Both my arms are going to be used to try and execute this one big move and if I miss the chin or if he re-adjusts his position before I can crank him over then I'm basically .... Fucked.


-Edit-

I wrote some rather lengthy description about why I don't think this neck crank would work most of the time... But the descriptions try to explain moves abd positions that are going to go over everybodie's head unless you have a lot of wrestling experience.

All I'll say is this: I don't see this move as being a "high percentage" move since the conditions need to be just right to throw it otherwise you will miss it. I think agains an untrained guy off the street that tries to tackle you down in a street fight, you have a 50/50 chance of getting it... Maybe even higher like 60/40 depending on the guy... I think that against a trained wrestler with at least 4 year of experience your chances lower considerably to maybe 20/80... Against a guy with Div. 1 college wrestling experience I would be generous to give this move a 5/95...

Let me stop now and say I will give this a good try and see if it works.


When I find somebody willing I'll try the exercise the way you described and I'll post the results.



-BRR

 

[Big Rick Rock]

You know whats funny ? I cant IMAGINE a Jab "working" on a real Opponent either ... I mean , you could just step backwards and avoid it , right ? ... A Hip Throw ? I mean , you just swing your outside leg backwards and sink down onto your lead knee ... a "Round" kick ? you just step in to the Opponent and blunt the dam ....

Ok Dude now you got me a little worried that you don't know what you are talking about...

You say that you can't "IMAGINE" a: Jab, Hip Toss, Roud House/Thai Kick working in real life?

I watched a boxing match on ESPN over the weekend where the "Jab" was working just fine, the guys in the undercard and main event all executed and connect between 5-10 Jabs per round and they seem to do just fine. Didn't KO the guy but it worked as a great set up for cobinations.

Hip Toss in all of its forms has been around since the Greeks first sanctioned wrestling events and guys where getting thrown on their heads... That was about 2,000 B.C give or take a few hundred years.

Don't get me started on the Round House kick...

Watch this clip: http://207.44.200.49/highlights/32-MirkoFilipovicHQ.zip

I lost count of how many guys Mirko KOed with the Round House Kick. This is just ONE guy executing this kick. I'm pretty sure someother guys have tried it too.


I have seen the three moves you mentioned be effective in real life combat. I cannot say the same for the stuff in the clips you posted. I have yet to see anybody use that "Neck Crank" in a real life confrontation.

Once again , Effective for what ? Im SURE that it dosent fit into your Gameplan . Thats the reason you have been taught to deal the way that you have . Ive SEEN Tim Silvia (amongst others) use the exact type of moves youre scratching your head at here to free himself up to throw more Punches at his opponents . Game Plan dictates Technique . When you study a certain sport fo a long time then a lot of universally viable techs are gling to be discarded . I mean , why the HELL would a wrestler need techs designed to create Punching room ? Hes never going to throw one .

- Please drop me a link to some clips or tell me when and against who Tim Silvia used that neck crank so I can find the fight and watch it. I'm not doubting you at all, but I'm really curious to see how this has been used in a real fight and what the results were.

-I don't just wrestle anymore. I cross train in different arts. I'm sure at some point after my Wrestling career was over and I took up MMA type training I would have found the need to learn this technique since the game plan changed.

I'm not doubting you bro, I just wish I could see an example or two of this technique being used in a real fight.

-BRR

 

[Judo Tom]

Wow , 5 DL shots in one match ? What happened , was it like , you know, when a Song gets stuck in your head and you just cant think of anything else ? Did he have some Tendency that made you REALLY want that double ? What was your Mindset ?

yeah it definately was a mistake but, this is what was going on in judo many high level players like a certain grip and it is very popular and it is one of those things that if you let your opponent get it you are already in big trouble because a good high percentage throw is going to happen as soon as the guy gets that grip. this was a sport judo match with a 5 min time limit and after only 10 seconds i got a major score, meaning that my opponent was going to have to play catch up.. and as more time passed he was going to have to be more and more aggressive and take more risks just to try to score. now i wasnt running or avoiding him or anything like that but i am very good at grip fighting and was working very hard to try to make sure he didnt get that grip on me and a few times he would really wind it up and try to get the grip and when he got real close instead of even risking it i went to shoot a double.. and i was scoring with it at first just not enough to end the match either standing or on the ground.. and like any good fighter he recognized what i was doing and adjusted..basically i just thought i was safe because the counter throw is not used to successfuly and even if someone pulls it off it normally scores very low and i would still be winning with my half point.. or so i thought.. mistake made and BIG lesson learned...

yeah i just got stuck in a bad groove.. i shouldve been switchin up my shots and mixing in firemans carries, singles and ankle picks.. oh well.. so long as i dont make that same mistake again next weekend i will be happy!

sorry for the long windedness

 

[Emevas]

Ok Dude now you got me a little worried that you don't know what you are talking about...

You say that you can't "IMAGINE" a: Jab, Hip Toss, Roud House/Thai Kick working in real life?

I watched a boxing match on ESPN over the weekend where the "Jab" was working just fine, the guys in the undercard and main event all executed and connect between 5-10 Jabs per round and they seem to do just fine. Didn't KO the guy but it worked as a great set up for cobinations.

Hip Toss in all of its forms has been around since the Greeks first sanctioned wrestling events and guys where getting thrown on their heads... That was about 2,000 B.C give or take a few hundred years.

Don't get me started on the Round House kick...

Watch this clip: http://207.44.200.49/highlights/32-MirkoFilipovicHQ.zip

I lost count of how many guys Mirko KOed with the Round House Kick. This is just ONE guy executing this kick. I'm pretty sure someother guys have tried it too.


I have seen the three moves you mentioned be effective in real life combat. I cannot say the same for the stuff in the clips you posted. I have yet to see anybody use that "Neck Crank" in a real life confrontation.






- Please drop me a link to some clips or tell me when and against who Tim Silvia used that neck crank so I can find the fight and watch it. I'm not doubting you at all, but I'm really curious to see how this has been used in a real fight and what the results were.

-I don't just wrestle anymore. I cross train in different arts. I'm sure at some point after my Wrestling career was over and I took up MMA type training I would have found the need to learn this technique since the game plan changed.

I'm not doubting you bro, I just wish I could see an example or two of this technique being used in a real fight.

-BRR

Someone's sarcasm detector is broken...

 

[Big Rick Rock]

yeah it definately was a mistake but, this is what was going on in judo many high level players like a certain grip and it is very popular and it is one of those things that if you let your opponent get it you are already in big trouble because a good high percentage throw is going to happen as soon as the guy gets that grip. this was a sport judo match with a 5 min time limit and after only 10 seconds i got a major score, meaning that my opponent was going to have to play catch up.. and as more time passed he was going to have to be more and more aggressive and take more risks just to try to score. now i wasnt running or avoiding him or anything like that but i am very good at grip fighting and was working very hard to try to make sure he didnt get that grip on me and a few times he would really wind it up and try to get the grip and when he got real close instead of even risking it i went to shoot a double.. and i was scoring with it at first just not enough to end the match either standing or on the ground.. and like any good fighter he recognized what i was doing and adjusted..basically i just thought i was safe because the counter throw is not used to successfuly and even if someone pulls it off it normally scores very low and i would still be winning with my half point.. or so i thought.. mistake made and BIG lesson learned...

yeah i just got stuck in a bad groove.. i shouldve been switchin up my shots and mixing in firemans carries, singles and ankle picks.. oh well.. so long as i dont make that same mistake again next weekend i will be happy!

sorry for the long windedness

One thing that comes to mind when reading that story is the mindset of a champion when he is down on points towards the end of the match... The mindset is usually "just throw that shit" meaning if you have the slightest opening just go for it even if it is a low percentage move. In wrestling at least, if you are down on points in the end of the 3rd period, you take a risk on a big move... The worst case senario the move doesn't work and you lose, but you would have lost anyway if you didn't go for it... It sucks that you lost that match but at least it tought you something.



-BRR

 

[Judo Tom]

yup good point BRR..

every tournament is like 50 lessons wrapped up in one.. and unfortunately you normally learn a lot more from your losses then you do your victories..

i watch the fights i lose about 10x more then the fights i win