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INSULIN conclusions

V

Vítor Rage

Member
Yes , i have done tons of research but,i found that there´s really no end point on correct and safe use of insulin, right?

What do you really think on:

best time to use? after workout, after wake up, ... ?
safe frequency: daily? five on two off? 3 times/wk? 2 tmes/wk?
carbs per unit? 5, 7 ,10 , more?
type of carbs to eat? just simple? mix of symple and complex?
type of insulin? just slim log? mixed ast and long action?
stack with creatine and/or glutamine?

Let´s heat up the insulin discussion to really take big advantages of this!
 
I cannot say I know it all, but this is what I do:
15 IU after waking up, 6 days on 2 days off
15 IU 30 minutes before the end of the training, ditto
carbs more than 10 grams/IU, prots 7 grams/IU, but I am bulking
carbs are only simple after the workout
I use humulin-R, I cannot get humalog, which is better
after workout: glutamine+creatine+BCAA+glucose, 45 minutes later 70 grams of whey, 100 grams of complex carbs. 1 hour after that low fat meal. 2 hours after that high fat low carb meal.

Of course I combine slin with GH and lots of test + T3.
 
I'm being ultra careful, test running it now natty to establish a baseline because I'll be using it with deca which increases slin sensitivity....only done it once so far, 3 ius, sat home with my shake, paranoid lol...everything was fine though, tomorrow going to try 5 ius.
 
www.canadapharmacy.com, you can get humalog there

When I first started using slin, I was paranoid. I take 10iu's after workout, protein carb shake and creatine and glutamine immediately after. Chicken and brown rice an hour later, and eat again 1.5 hours later. I feel lightheaded for a few hours after taking it. Always have some sugar on hand, soda, candy, whatever.
 
i have come to a firm conclusion about safe slin use! it is NOT safe. but it does work, let's keep the slin threads bumped and try to provide as many posts from people using it now and in the past. but provide the good AND the bad. i have log and R in the fridge awaiting some courage. i'm not so afraid of keeling over dead...i can "live" with that. you can't bitch when u r dead. but it would be rather unpleasent to end up livin' with some of the potential side effects i have been warned about.

anybody have any info on preloading your shots with the slin & GH mixed in one dart, so that you would have one ready for the AM and one for the post workout (all ready to go)
 
You only need to know one thing about insulin: Don't use it.

AT BEST, the benefits are marginal, so why the fuck would anyone risk pancreatic damage, coma, edema, shock and even death for the POSSIBILITY of gaining an ounce of muscle?

This where the argument of steroid use being addictive becoes more and more legitimate. Admit it guys, you get a kick when you score. You get a kick when you inject. You get a kick when you know you got over on the man. You get a kick out of knowing you have an advantage. You get a kick out of having the balls to do something others wouldn't dare. Well, that kick is addictive and it starts to carry over to other drug use.

Nobody in their right mind will say that insulin is as powerful as testosterone. So why not do more testosterone? Because the kick is old and you have to show you have bigger balls than the next guy. That's all it is. There isn't one legitimate reason to use slin. You don't need it. But keep taking it and you will... becuause you won't have a functional pancreas.

Get big. Get strong. Stay healthy. Don't be a fool.

With all due disrespect -- anyone who uses insulin is an idiot.
 
Nelson Montana said:
You only need to know one thing about insulin: Don't use it.

AT BEST, the benefits are marginal, so why the fuck would anyone risk pancreatic damage, coma, edema, shock and even death for the POSSIBILITY of gaining an ounce of muscle?

This where the argument of steroid use being addictive becoes more and more legitimate. Admit it guys, you get a kick when you score. You get a kick when you inject. You get a kick when you know you got over on the man. You get a kick out of knowing you have an advantage. You get a kick out of having the balls to do something others wouldn't dare. Well, that kick is addictive and it starts to carry over to other drug use.

Nobody in their right mind will say that insulin is as powerful as testosterone. So why not do more testosterone? Because the kick is old and you have to show you have bigger balls than the next guy. That's all it is. There isn't one legitimate reason to use slin. You don't need it. But keep taking it and you will... becuause you won't have a functional pancreas.

Get big. Get strong. Stay healthy. Don't be a fool.

With all due disrespect -- anyone who uses insulin is an idiot.
Click to expand...

cluess, misinformed, uneducated post
 
well, mine is still just sitting there lookin at me. i just keep hearing this nagging voice in the back of my head saying that i am wasting the GH if i do not include slin and T3. it's not so much for gaining an extra pound or two, as worrying that if i do not stack it with the GH i will see no gains and no repair to my tendons... i would love to hear that i will reap the benefits from GH without the need for slin, but so far, most users are telling me otherwise???
 
...clueless, misinformed, uneducated post..
............................................

Keep telling yourself that pal. You're whistling in the dark.
 
dont quote me on this but i did hear that using gh makes you more insulin resistant so using slin can actually help prevent you from becoming diabetic. worth finding out more about.

dave.
 
Nelson, got to back you somewhat on your post.

I know a couple of guys who've hardly juice for a year...still at the 200lb mark and they are using insulin! They are 20-22 years old.

I do beleive that there is a use for insulin...it should be used by vets that have almost maxed out on steroids and need an extra boost.
 
Nelson my purpose for using light slin is to add some anabolic potential back because I will be using low dose anabolics in order to be able to hold onto my hair....

I realize that the risk can be significant, but also things need to be put in perspective...

I respect you and am eager to hear what you have to say, if you wouldnt mind answering these qs for me..

1. Pancreatic damage... I know its possible (I have not heard of it before) but where did you get this information.

2. What makes you say that the benefits are marginal at best? I think the benefits for an ectomorph in particular could be huge...especially with the possibility of maturing dormant muscle cells.

3. Again, things should be put in perspective a bit...there is a big difference between using humalog 1-2x a week 2x a day than to use say a long actin insulin and humalog 3x a day 5 days a week...

Further... when I do a cycle, I need to be able to grow BIG from it...I am taking a risk each time I order steroids, and I dont like doing more than 1-2 per year discounting anavar ...

Anyway I know your experience is vast in BB so can you go into more detail with my questions? Yes you may be Nelson Montana but its never wise to take anyone's word as gospel.....thanks Nelson, looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
 
Frackal: To answer you questions:

1...Damage to the pancreas is a no brainer. And with the influx of any exogeneous substance/hormone, endogenous production slows down. Now that's bad enough with the HPTA, but at least it's resiliant and supression won't kill you. No pancreas = no life. Not to mention, the more you use, the more likely of developing diabetes -- or in the least, a less effiecient pancreas.

2...The dormant muscle cell theory benefit is a stretch, at best. Benificial to ecomorphs? So is a lot of food. What's ironic is that you hear so much about cutting carbs on these boards. Hell, carbs release insulin! Bulking up with carbs is easy -- but it should be good carbs and most people ignore the best carb of all -- lactose.

3...Sure, less is better than more. But nobody ever died from an OD of testosterone. (The oil will kill you before the hormone does) Why the fuck would you mess around with something so lethal? You're afraid of losing some HAIR??!?! Come on man!

Lots of guys got big without insulin. Only the pros who finish in the top ten need to be bigger than everybody else. Are you in the top ten?

Eat big. Lift big. And yes, roids will help. Insulin is a suckers game. Just my opinion bro. I ain't saying it for any other reason than I hope it keeps somebody from hurting themselves.
 
I know for a fact that over half of the last NPC National competitors did not use insulin. No bullshit here, just the facts. I am getting my info from two (not one, but two) different guys who i know that placed within the top five in the heavyweight, and superheavyweight Nationals. I just bought some humalin-R a few weeks ago...looks like i will be holding off, as i am nowhere near maxing out on the sauce.
 
I just started humalog only post workout 2on1off days. 5ius only with creatine shake at the gym - shot once I get home along with a glass of cranberry juice and glutamine. Then 45-55 grams of whey with skim milk. 2 weeks on and two weeks off to combo with the GH. Might switch to only one week off with the gh buy will keep the slin at 2on and 2off.
 
I have used slin and have stopped using it, there is no reason to to play with something that has that big of a potential of fucking you up, also after reading tom princes thoughts on slin and how he doesnt use it made me think, wtf am I doing? I now use ala after workouts and dont have to worry about passing out. big relief!
 
The people that I know who ran slin as a bridge at 10-12iu after workouts didn't gain shit...maybe 3lbs at the most but nothing serious.
 
Nelson, do you think that the now so common big guts that many pro bodybuilders carry is caused by insulin?
 
The difference between use and abuse is thin line in this game. I agree with Frackle on this one, we have many risks here that we are trying to reduce. Yes slin is dangerous but so is dbol to the misinformed. If we use a more sensible amount of AS and compliment it with a sensible dose (min required) amount of slin, doesn't that make sense? How does 2-3 times per week post workout to help recover from that awesome back or leg workout sound? I am suggesting moderation and min amounts of the compounds that we use. Use a little bit of everything, abuse nothing. Use enough of anything to get the first easy 90% of it's benifits and little of it's side or risk. Run that 250mg test/300deca week cycle with 6iu of post workout slin only for the first and last 4 weeks. Maybe run a little dbol like 10-20mg to get it's benifits without it's problems.
 
Nelson or somebody....

I asked this question before in another post. Isn't there a few studies which show using insulin with your gh actuallly increase the chances of screwing up your body's glucose/insulin metabolism? One particular journal article reccomended the use of glucophage to increase insulin sensitivity. I don't have a strong background in endochrinology(sp?) but seems only logical to me that indroducing exogenous insulin into your bloodstream can only have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity over the long term....
 
BigAndy69 said:
Nelson, got to back you somewhat on your post.

I know a couple of guys who've hardly juice for a year...still at the 200lb mark and they are using insulin! They are 20-22 years old.

I do beleive that there is a use for insulin...it should be used by vets that have almost maxed out on steroids and need an extra boost.
Click to expand...

I agree!

Some kid was asking me about it at the gym. maybe 20yrs old at the most. Weighs maybe 170? Will he listen to me that he doesnt need it and it will do nothing but give him sides? Probably not. If it works for others that weigh 250-300lbs shredded, It obviously the secret thats gonna get him big. fucking dumbass.........
 
Icelandic. I can't cite any particular studies but knowing what insulin and GH do and how they do it, the conclusion is fairly obvious.

Spectre: You make a cogent argument, but the risk/benefit ratio of d-bol compared to insulin is so extreme it makes the comparison invalid.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Frackal: To answer you questions:

1...Damage to the pancreas is a no brainer. And with the influx of any exogeneous substance/hormone, endogenous production slows down. Now that's bad enough with the HPTA, but at least it's resiliant and supression won't kill you. No pancreas = no life. Not to mention, the more you use, the more likely of developing diabetes -- or in the least, a less effiecient pancreas.

2...The dormant muscle cell theory benefit is a stretch, at best. Benificial to ecomorphs? So is a lot of food. What's ironic is that you hear so much about cutting carbs on these boards. Hell, carbs release insulin! Bulking up with carbs is easy -- but it should be good carbs and most people ignore the best carb of all -- lactose.

3...Sure, less is better than more. But nobody ever died from an OD of testosterone. (The oil will kill you before the hormone does) Why the fuck would you mess around with something so lethal? You're afraid of losing some HAIR??!?! Come on man!

Lots of guys got big without insulin. Only the pros who finish in the top ten need to be bigger than everybody else. Are you in the top ten?

Eat big. Lift big. And yes, roids will help. Insulin is a suckers game. Just my opinion bro. I ain't saying it for any other reason than I hope it keeps somebody from hurting themselves.
Click to expand...

I actually agree with you here. :)

Even though I'm of the mindset of, to each his own, Insulin
BY ITSELF IS NOT ANABOLIC AT ALL.

Bet that surprises a lot of you huh?

Fonz
 
Icelandic. I can't cite any particular studies but knowing what insulin and GH do and how they do it, the conclusion is fairly obvious.
Click to expand...

Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but what conclusion is that? Is there really that much of a synergism between the two? Or do you feel that using slin is just idiotic regardless of gh use ?
 
Icelandic: Since GH will enhance the rate in which carbs are burned it make the combination doubly dangerous.

And Fonz is right, insulin alone isn't anabolic. And even in the presense of protein and carbs, or even steroids, the additional anabolic effect is minimal at best.
 
Ok thanks for clearing that up.... I always felt using slin was like playing with fire. Im pretty sure I ran across some studies which contraindicted the usage of insulin with gh, but I know of one local hospital that always administers slin with gh for short statured children. Oh well, no one should place too much trust in most doctors these days.
 
Hello Nelson, I think the argument is valid sir. You ever heard of a kid buying a pack of a 1000 dbol and running it until it's gone? I have. How could that be safer than 12-16 shots every other month of a sensible amount of insulin? I am not a zealot about insulin, if I observed some conclusive evidence of the harm at a moderate usage, by all means I would cease it's use. I respond very well to insulin, I thing my body really doesn't take in carbs well otherwise limiting my gains and increasing stored fat. I became stronger and leaner with limited use.

Fonz; If food is 'anabolic' and insulin allows you uptake more food, wouldn't it be in a way anabolic? Or are we getting some stuff mixed up here?

Nandi where are you?

With respect,
 
Nelson Montana said:
You only need to know one thing about insulin: Don't use it.

AT BEST, the benefits are marginal, so why the fuck would anyone risk pancreatic damage, coma, edema, shock and even death for the POSSIBILITY of gaining an ounce of muscle?

This where the argument of steroid use being addictive becoes more and more legitimate. Admit it guys, you get a kick when you score. You get a kick when you inject. You get a kick when you know you got over on the man. You get a kick out of knowing you have an advantage. You get a kick out of having the balls to do something others wouldn't dare. Well, that kick is addictive and it starts to carry over to other drug use.

Nobody in their right mind will say that insulin is as powerful as testosterone. So why not do more testosterone? Because the kick is old and you have to show you have bigger balls than the next guy. That's all it is. There isn't one legitimate reason to use slin. You don't need it. But keep taking it and you will... becuause you won't have a functional pancreas.

Get big. Get strong. Stay healthy. Don't be a fool.

With all due disrespect -- anyone who uses insulin is an idiot.
Click to expand...

I agree!!!:)
 
I thing my body really doesn't take in carbs well otherwise limiting my gains and increasing stored fat. I became stronger and leaner with limited use.
Click to expand...

If this is the case, don't you think you'd be better off trying to improve your body's insulin sensitivty?

I admit my ignorance in the useage of insulin, but don't you think the simple act of introducing exgenous insulin after a large intake carbs can only have a negative effect on your level of insulin sensitivity in the long run? What is it like when you come off slin, can you notice any changes in your body's metabolism?
 
Icelandic; I have had my blood sugar level checked before and it has always been spot on. No diabetes in my family. I'm all ears on how to increase my sensitivity otherwise. I just don't use all that much of it, just enough for effect and no more. I've only done it 4 weeks on and 3weeks off now, but I haven't noticed any changes in my body otherwise being a little stronger and heavier while eating less post cycle. ( this isn't a long sample time nor am I a vet)

How does one increase insulin sensitivity to negate the use of insulin? Sure you can low carb then load, but that doesn't work so well when bulking.

I would really like to hear a little more from different folks both for and against backed up by some science. Not professing it's use here, just trying to get some answers.

Fonz? Ironmaster?

Thanks to all who add to the thread.
 
Nelson, I realize you have alot of experience but I have to take issue with the pancreatic damage segment of your comment..... besides being a 'no brainer' .. why would you say exogenous insulin causes damage to the pancreas? You compare it to the way the HPTA is suppressed - Does that mean that taking the equivalent of a steroid with a 2 hour half life, 2x a day, 2 days a week is going to damage my HPTA ?

Also one other thing... I am not after anything here for 'the kick'..I dont get much of a kick from using insulin, and I personally hate injecting and dislike dealing with the legality risk of gear itself....my goal is to accomplish my goals, simply.
 
Well if it does indeed cause pancreatic damage you are severely fucked to say the least, this is an extremely vital organ... Have you ever see the survival rates for pancreatic cancer? Really am interested to see the vets debate this one out, though.
 
I have a queston about insulin. Can't it make you fat? I've heard that if taken WRONG it can really fuck up your metabolism. How would someone have to take it to get fat? What is the WRONG way to take it?
 
Ohioguy; The wrong way to take is before you do your research. Check out a post by Acneman, very informative. Good luck.
 
Frackal said:
Nelson, I realize you have alot of experience but I have to take issue with the pancreatic damage segment of your comment..... besides being a 'no brainer' .. why would you say exogenous insulin causes damage to the pancreas? You compare it to the way the HPTA is suppressed - Does that mean that taking the equivalent of a steroid with a 2 hour half life, 2x a day, 2 days a week is going to damage my HPTA ?

Also one other thing... I am not after anything here for 'the kick'..I dont get much of a kick from using insulin, and I personally hate injecting and dislike dealing with the legality risk of gear itself....my goal is to accomplish my goals, simply.
Click to expand...

The pancreas is different from your HPTA because once it gets
suppressed its suppressed or shot for good.

There's very little margin for error.

Besides, no matter what anyone tells you THERE HAVE BEEN
NO LONG TERM STUDIES DONE ON HEALTHY ADULTS. EVER.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


The pancreas is different from your HPTA because once it gets
suppressed its suppressed or shot for good.

There's very little margin for error.

Besides, no matter what anyone tells you THERE HAVE BEEN
NO LONG TERM STUDIES DONE ON HEALTHY ADULTS. EVER.

Fonz
Click to expand...


Fonz, thank you for your comment.

A few questions.... how do you know that once the pancreas is suppressed it ceases to function? What were the circumstances involved? Was it due to insulin usage? Can I see the studies?

I realize that insulin is dangerous but there seems to be so much conflicting info out there, I have also read that insulin does not cause pancreatic damage...

What I would like to hear is how exogenus insulin causes pancreatic damage.

What I dont want to hear is because I'm asking questions, this response: "hey pal take my opinion or leave it, its your life." ... That doesnt help anyone.
 
Well, I'll say that I haven't read all of the posts here but I will say that most of the harping going on is by those who have not even fucking tried insulin. Insulin is by far the easiest drug I have ever tried. Don't feel a thing except maybe a little growth and strength increase. It didn't do much for me but it wasn't really supposed to the way I was using it. It is meant to be used with gear, or if natural, then shot multiple times daily for maximum effect. Live and learn guys. I find it EXREMELY hard to believe that using humalog 5 times a week is going to damage the pancreas. The pancreas works 24/7 and to supplement with slin for 2 hours, 5 days a week for 3 weeks is going to trick it into thinking that it no longer needs to produce insulin? Sorry, I'm not buying that. The slin is not in there long enough for a negative feedback to be a concern. Fuck, whatever, chock this up to a guy who is trying to make himself feel better cause he tried it. To say though that slin is a drug only for guys who have been around for like 10+ years or whatever you would call a vet is STUPID. Period. Provided you aren't a moron, it is probably far safer than gear any day of the week. Who the fuck knows though? None of us do. Some of us are a little bit more experimental and the rest of us aren't. Leave it at that. It sounds scary if you haven't used it but if you have, then you know you have to SERIOUSLY fuck up to die from it or to even FEEL symptoms of hypoglycemia. i mean, you have to have no fucking clue what you are doing. Slin also, it just so happens, is the cheapest most readily available drug around. I'm frankly getting tired of the hypocritical bullshit I am constantly reading on this board. If you are putting ANYTHING in your body that does not belong there, i.e. juice, cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, etc. then you are a moron for saying someone else is stupid for using something that maybe they shouldn't be. Granted, some things require more knowledge and attention than others do but if you are being as responsible as possible then, while you may be a moron, at least you are a responsible one.
 
Good post though quite on the attack nathan....main thing is, with any claim, some sort of proof must be provided....I am fully willing to listen open-mindedly, if Nelson presented proof that it will damage the pancreas I would not touch it, but I have not heard of it before him saying it, and I've asked a few very, very knowledgeable folks her and at AF and they said it does not.
 
Wow -- suprised to see this still going on.

First of all, the "don't knock it till you try it" argument is ridiculous. You don't have to jump into a fire to find out if it's going to burn you.

Saying "only a little bit won't kill you",is once again, a weak argument. A little rat poison may not kill you either. That doesn't mean it's honkey dorey to take "just a little." And the lack of studies proving the danger of something doesn't negate its danger.

As far as pancreatic damage, I wasn't referring to cancer or any other disease, just a malfuction or a less efficient functioning. And because it is far more sensitive than the HPTA, occasional distruption can most certainly cause a disruption.

As Fonz mentioned before, there are no studies on this, because insulin is not to be used on an "occasional" basis.

For anyone who says they "need it" I'd recommend getting your ass to a doctor NOW.

The bottom line here is, you're trying defend something that offers very little advantage against enormous risk. What can possibly be so great about insulin that you would take that chance?!?! What will you have to show for it? Maybe an ounce of more muscle? Maybe more fat? I dont get it. But you know, some people refuse to see the obvious signs. They believe it's more "intellectual" to wait for irrefutable scientific evidence. Some people will argue to their grave.

Ultimately it's your choice. I think you're out of your fucking mind. You disagree. Hey... I'm not your mother. Do whatever you want. I'm just presenting the facts -- and an opinion -- which I once again will reiterate:

Anyone who takes insulin is an idiot.

Maybe Im wrong. Time will tell.
 
Hello again Nelson,

As Fonz mentioned before, there are no studies on this, because insulin is not to be used on an "occasional" basis.
Click to expand...

Ok then how do you conclude.

I'm just presenting the facts -- and an opinion --
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be more opinion at this time?

How does one increase insulin sensitivity negating the use of insulin?

Can we please learn about the process or how one damages the pancreas?

The pancrease must be really jacked up in allot of people because in my industry I have watched people drink multiple 64oz servings of Mt Dew a day. I can't fathom the amount of insulin response these folks induce. Will they become diabetic?

Regards,
 
1: J Biol Chem 2002 Aug 2;277(31):27945-52 Related Articles, Links


Suppressor of cytokine signaling-1 regulates the sensitivity of pancreatic beta cells to tumor necrosis factor.

Chong MM, Thomas HE, Kay TW.

Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research, Post Office Royal Melbourne Hospital, Parkville, Victoria 3050, Australia.

Important part:

Suppressor of cytokine signaling-1 (SOCS-1) is a negative regulator of the Jak-STAT (signal transducer and activator of transcription cytokine) signaling pathway but may also regulate other pathways. At least in vitro, SOCS-1 inhibits the action of multiple cytokines. By studying the effects of SOCS-1 deficiency, we investigated whether SOCS-1 is involved in preventing cytokine-induced death of pancreatic islet cells, a potential mechanism of insulin deficiency in autoimmune diabetes.

(End.)

A further analysis revealed that SOCS-1 deficiency results in augmented TNF signaling via the p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase pathway but not NFkappaB or c-Jun N-terminal kinase pathways. Increased p38 signaling may be responsible for the increased iNOS expression in SOCS-1-/- islets. Therefore, these findings provide evidence that physiological levels of SOCS-1 negatively regulate TNF signaling.

PMID: 12032139 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

So, whats the problem?

Insulin use RAISES CYTOKINE LEVELS.

EXOGENEOUS insulin EVEN MORE.

Over time, I'm willing to bet that there is some cytokine induced
damage to the Islet of langerhans located in the Pancreas.

Fonz
 
Fonz, how does 10ius of exogenus insulin raise cytokine levels any more than taking in a large quantity of sugar....and please address the post at Anabolic fitness regarding this thread...

Also can you translate that study.... what exactly is TNF signaling and how would it contribute to pancreatic damage down the line.

Also, why would exogenus insulin raise cytokine levels more than endo insuiln?
 
Cytokine increases over time.

Thats the problem.

What happens then?

You give yourself an AUTO-IMMUNE disease.

i.e. Type II diabetic most likely.

You have actually seen this happenning today.

Some Pro's are Type II diabetics now.

I'll try to give you an analogy:

Alcohol is a neuro-toxin. It kills brain cells.
However, you have MANY brain cells.

In by itself, alcohol will not cause brain damage,
but you WILL LOSE BRAIN CELLS.

Same is true for the pancreatic beta cells.

You CAN KILL THEM.

Cytokines damage and destroy the beta cells.

Make no mistake about it, insulin is dangerous
if used long-term.

Now, what exactly is long-term Fonz?

I have NO CLUE.

And thats the scary part.

Fonz
 
have any of the insulin users here tried GH alone and then compared their results to the results obtained from using the SAME GH in the SAME amounts with the SAME AAS with the slin tossed in to the stack??? i would not even be interested, and would not have picked up any slin at all if not for the folks telling me that GH without slin & T3 was being wasted... any opinions???
 
I don't know about slin use for BB but here is a recommendation. If you do use it, make sure, no matter how experienced you are with it, that you are around people for a couple hours after use. If you have ever seen someone go into a diabetic siezure due to their sugar bottoming out you'll know why. Just a suggestion.
 
Nelson I happen to come across a certain article "steroids for health" that you wrote in tmag which left me perplexed as to the extent of your knowledge in the field of anabolics:




"The general public, however, has been bombarded with a reefer-madness like hysteria for so long that they can hardly be blamed for thinking that anabolic steroids are on par with heroin (both schedule II drugs) as a life-threatening substance



Keep in mind that an injectable steroid is active for two to three weeks after injection so it is at the end of that time that you can begin to consider yourself "clean."

...all of the testosterones (with the possible exception of Sustanon) can cause problems, especially in the older athlete. Parabolin is very anabolic and not very androgenic, yet it has other toxic qualities. The only rational choices among the injectables are Primobolan and Deca Durabolin.

Take your first 200 mg shot of Deca on day-one. Wait three days and do another 200 mgs. Wait four days and do another 200 mgs. Five days later do 100 mgs of Deca. After a week, do your last shot of 100 mgs of Deca. In this way, there will be an abundance of the drugs in the bloodstream when the growth stage is at its peak and it provides enough of a gradual decrease to allow for the body to begin readjusting and "cleansing itself." This [Deca] may be of little consequence since this protocol won't inhibit the testicular axis for very long. "


whos whistling in the dark now biatch?
 
Last edited:
...interesting...

I am using 5 ius of log/ 2 ius of Gh post w/o as a bridge after dbol/cyp. I have not yet experinced any dropoffs in strenght from the anabolics, though I have leaned out from the Gh and lost water.
 
HighIntensity said:
Nelson I happen to come across a certain article "steroids for health" that you wrote in tmag which left me perplexed as to the extent of your knowledge in the field of anabolics:




"The general public, however, has been bombarded with a reefer-madness like hysteria for so long that they can hardly be blamed for thinking that anabolic steroids are on par with heroin (both schedule II drugs) as a life-threatening substance



Keep in mind that an injectable steroid is active for two to three weeks after injection so it is at the end of that time that you can begin to consider yourself "clean."

...all of the testosterones (with the possible exception of Sustanon) can cause problems, especially in the older athlete. Parabolin is very anabolic and not very androgenic, yet it has other toxic qualities. The only rational choices among the injectables are Primobolan and Deca Durabolin.

Take your first 200 mg shot of Deca on day-one. Wait three days and do another 200 mgs. Wait four days and do another 200 mgs. Five days later do 100 mgs of Deca. After a week, do your last shot of 100 mgs of Deca. In this way, there will be an abundance of the drugs in the bloodstream when the growth stage is at its peak and it provides enough of a gradual decrease to allow for the body to begin readjusting and "cleansing itself." This [Deca] may be of little consequence since this protocol won't inhibit the testicular axis for very long. "


whos whistling in the dark now biatch?
Click to expand...

HI.......lol You just have WAY too much time on your hands.

How on earth did you dig that up?

Fonz
 
Frackal said:
Fonz = Nelson Montana

=o
Click to expand...

LOL

Yep. Nelson is my alter ego....... :)

Fonz
 
mixed

TPH said:
...interesting...

I am using 5 ius of log/ 2 ius of Gh post w/o as a bridge after dbol/cyp. I have not yet experinced any dropoffs in strenght from the anabolics, though I have leaned out from the Gh and lost water.
Click to expand...

hey TPH,
i am now up to 2iu GH in the AM and 2iu pre workout as of monday. i have been considering adding in the slin and moving the workout shot to post like we talked about before. r u mixing the slin and GH together in the same dart to carry it to the gym???
g
 
G- I just PM'd you...

I take 2 slin darts to the gym, one for the Gh one for the slin.

Yeah, so I decided to do both post w/o. I think the Gh is debatable, but taking the slin pre w/o would asking for problems.

Anyone else know if its ok to put the GH and slin in the same dart???

Thanks

TPH
 
HighIntensity: Biatch? What are you? Eleven?

So what's your point? That article was written in 1997. Where were you in 1997? Do I still agree with some of those statements? Of course not. What information from that time hasn't been shown to have its inaccuracies?

That piece received quite a bit of critical acclaim from some of the most prestigious people in the industry, including Dan Duchaine. But if you take things out of context, naturally you'll find flaws. I can print exerpts from USH and if no one knew who wrote it they'd say that guy didn't know what he was talking about!

Then again, the basic message of "Steroids For Health" still holds up as pretty good advice.

Hey man, if you want to do a gram of test a day followed by a pint of insulin and bowl of clomid, don't let me stop you.
 
MUSTGETHUUUUUGE said:
www.canadapharmacy.com, you can get humalog there

When I first started using slin, I was paranoid. I take 10iu's after workout, protein carb shake and creatine and glutamine immediately after. Chicken and brown rice an hour later, and eat again 1.5 hours later. I feel lightheaded for a few hours after taking it. Always have some sugar on hand, soda, candy, whatever.
Click to expand...

This link says:

Fax or mail the prescription from your Doctor and also a piece of a picture ID (Driver License) to us.
Your Doctor's prescription will be reviewed and re-written by a Canadian Doctor and dispensed by our Pharmacy.

Isn't humalog a prescription drug?
 
Nelson Montana said:
HighIntensity: Biatch? What are you? Eleven?

So what's your point? That article was written in 1997. Where were you in 1997? Do I still agree with some of those statements? Of course not. What information from that time hasn't been shown to have its inaccuracies?

That piece received quite a bit of critical acclaim from some of the most prestigious people in the industry, including Dan Duchaine. But if you take things out of context, naturally you'll find flaws. I can print exerpts from USH and if no one knew who wrote it they'd say that guy didn't know what he was talking about!

Then again, the basic message of "Steroids For Health" still holds up as pretty good advice.

Hey man, if you want to do a gram of test a day followed by a pint of insulin and bowl of clomid, don't let me stop you.
Click to expand...


So your saying that since 1997 deca has become a longer lasting ester then it was at the time of your artical, and tren while very androgenic was not in 1997? Haha come on the date of when you wrote that is not relevent in either case, you were advocating three week cycles useing deca and thats just asinine.
 
Last edited:
Wrong again HighIntensity.

Although the metabolites od Deca are detectable for months, the anabolic effects last for only a few weeks. If you were to take a single 600mgs shot of Deca do you think you'd still be making gains from it a month later? Get real.

Look man, you're just trying to discredit me because I'm making you see how insulin use is dumb and you don't want to face that fact.

But hey, maybe insulin use is the greatest thing in the world! To each his own.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Wrong again HighIntensity.


Look man, you're just trying to discredit me because I'm making you see how insulin use is dumb and you don't want to face that fact.

Click to expand...

I am not trying to discredit you, you already did this nicely yourself.

BTW Steriods are not class 2, they are class 3.
 
Nelson - your information has been an interesting read. Earlier in this thread you said that pancreas damage from insulin use is a "no brainer". Since I am currently using insulin this concerns me.

I ran the issue by a very knowledgable and respected former member of this Board, and he responded with the below:

"In type 2 diabetes peripheral insulin resistance causes the pancreatic beta cells to overcompensate and produce more and more insulin, leading to eventual beta cell destruction in a way that is not well understood. It could be from sustained high levels of insulin, or sustained hyperglycemia, or some other process leading to beta cell burnout. Hyperinsulinemia also eventually leads to defects in the peripheral insulin receptor signalling process.

Will these happen during a 'slin cycle lasting a few weeks? I don't know but I am skeptical because it takes many years of sustained hyperinsulinemia in type 2 diabetics for this to occur. I have done a number of 'slin cycles over the years and my glucose tolerance is normal. I am not dismissing the possibility of it happening, but I think it is unlikely. "

This seems sensible... so how is pancreas damage a non-brainer?
 
Wow, lots of mixed opinions on this one.
I am an idiot as I am using slin now with my current cycle (conservatively).

I have to differ with the statement that slin may not put on muscle weight as I have a whole list of personal bests from training the last 3 wks since using slin for the first time.

I do believe that slin is one of the reasons that todays pro's would drawf the pro's of the 70's/80's or even 90's.

I agree it's a risk/reward situation, all of us make that choice every day in this game.
 
Nelson I think the point is that such glaring errors in your article bring up questions about your knowledge elsewhere....The point about the deca was not whether the anabolic effects woudl be present, but that you would be shutting your system regardless with these nandrolone injections which would kind of defeat the purpose of a short cycle, especially since you're trying to keep your cycle down to 3 weeks, but injecting deca in the middle of week 2, well....

With the tren thing, I would assume anyone with the right knowledge would know that tren is androgenic.

And I was surprised that you did not know what schedule steroids were in, them being C-III unless they were C-II back in '97 but I doubt it.

Nelson I respect your efforts to state your opinion about something you feel to be dangerous, but what we need are true facts, just as if we were talking about steroids.... and its hard to buy your comment about pancreatic damage or shutdown if all you have to offer to support it is 'common sense.'
 
TPH said:
Nelson - your information has been an interesting read. Earlier in this thread you said that pancreas damage from insulin use is a "no brainer". Since I am currently using insulin this concerns me.

I ran the issue by a very knowledgable and respected former member of this Board, and he responded with the below:

"In type 2 diabetes peripheral insulin resistance causes the pancreatic beta cells to overcompensate and produce more and more insulin, leading to eventual beta cell destruction in a way that is not well understood. It could be from sustained high levels of insulin, or sustained hyperglycemia, or some other process leading to beta cell burnout. Hyperinsulinemia also eventually leads to defects in the peripheral insulin receptor signalling process.

Will these happen during a 'slin cycle lasting a few weeks? I don't know but I am skeptical because it takes many years of sustained hyperinsulinemia in type 2 diabetics for this to occur. I have done a number of 'slin cycles over the years and my glucose tolerance is normal. I am not dismissing the possibility of it happening, but I think it is unlikely. "

This seems sensible... so how is pancreas damage a non-brainer?
Click to expand...

Its sustained use that will damage the Pancreas.

And its probably due to hyperglycaemia more than hyperinsulanemia.

2 6 week insulin cycles/year is what I'm advocating as a safe
dosaging pattern.

Might seem overly safe, but remember that there are no long term studies done on healthy insulin using adult subjects.

And HI, The Scheduling of AAS is kind of a minor error.
Its not like that puts all his knowledge of AAS at fault.

Fonz
 
I think TPH's post and Fonz's comments explain this in more scientific terms than I can. Although I agree with both statements.

This is the thing. People often tend to base their personal opinion not so much on logic, but the dogma of the most "scientificly knowledgable." Which is fine, but it can also lead to disaster for several reasons. Sometimes the science is flawed. Sometimes the scientist has an ulterior motive. Sometimes the scientist is knowledgable in one area and ignorent in another or he or she just flat out gives bad advice.

There is more than enough evidence to prove the dangers of insulin. Will a couple of light cycles a year make a difference? Who knows? Maybe not right away. The point is, it is an unnecessary risk in my opinion.
And as Fonz pointed out, there's too little research to know for sure. We MUST use our intellect and reason to make decisions. The lack of research does not mean it isn't unsafe!

If my statements are to be dismissed because I've made some inaccuacies in the past, then EVERYONE'S statements must be dismissed -- unless it's someone who hasn't been known to the public yet. And soon enough, he'll be wrong about something. Nobody is always right. But whatever technical innacuries I may have reported in the past, the basic advice was sound, and I stand by it.

Hell, Patrick Arnold has made a slew of rotten products and people praise him like he's a genius!

Scheduled II Scheduled III. You get the idea. Actually, this varies from state to state.

You know, the same argument can be made for diuretics. Lots of guys have used it with no problems. But mess up, and you mess up big time -- maybe the last time. If you think something is worth the chance, be my guest.
Just remember, all the arguing in the world won't mean a thing if ou wind up in a hospital bed. But hey, I bet the fact that your bench went up another 25 pounds will make it all worth while.

The writng, as they say, is on the wall.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I think TPH's post and Fonz's comments explain this in more scientific terms than I can. Although I agree with both statements.

This is the thing. People often tend to base their personal opinion not so much on logic, but the dogma of the most "scientificly knowledgable." Which is fine, but it can also lead to disaster for several reasons. Sometimes the science is flawed. Sometimes the scientist has an ulterior motive. Sometimes the scientist is knowledgable in one area and ignorent in another or he or she just flat out gives bad advice.

There is more than enough evidence to prove the dangers of insulin. Will a couple of light cycles a year make a difference? Who knows? Maybe not right away. The point is, it is an unnecessary risk in my opinion.
And as Fonz pointed out, there's too little research to know for sure. We MUST use our intellect and reason to make decisions. The lack of research does not mean it isn't unsafe!

If my statements are to be dismissed because I've made some inaccuacies in the past, then EVERYONE'S statements must be dismissed -- unless it's someone who hasn't been known to the public yet. And soon enough, he'll be wrong about something. Nobody is always right. But whatever technical innacuries I may have reported in the past, the basic advice was sound, and I stand by it.

Hell, Patrick Arnold has made a slew of rotten products and people praise him like he's a genius!

Scheduled II Scheduled III. You get the idea. Actually, this varies from state to state.

You know, the same argument can be made for diuretics. Lots of guys have used it with no problems. But mess up, and you mess up big time -- maybe the last time. If you think something is worth the chance, be my guest.
Just remember, all the arguing in the world won't mean a thing if ou wind up in a hospital bed. But hey, I bet the fact that your bench went up another 25 pounds will make it all worth while.

The writng, as they say, is on the wall.
Click to expand...

You just keep saying it's bad and expect us to believe it without ANY proof. I have probably done more insulin than anyone on this board (or pretty much up there) and have yet to have a side effect. Please enlighten me with my future problems ...

-sk
 
Good points Nelson, Fonz....my insulin dosage is going to be even more conservative, during my 9 week cycle I will be using it 3 on, 3 off, and thats it, 2wice a week, 2x a day on those days, 10ius max.
 
But hey, I bet the fact that your bench went up another 25 pounds will make it all worth while
Click to expand...

Could not have said it better myself!
Oh, we're you kidding?
LOL

I have to agree that it may very well cause damage if abused, but I will live with the chance that my 10Iu's 3xWK is going to hurt me permanately.
If I am wrong I am only hurting myself, and until there are studies performed that will either confirm of deny your beliefs I will continue to put myself in what I believe to be minimal risk.
Although Nelson I respect your opinion and the opinion of the other more knowledgable bropthers it is a personal choice and if it ends up biting me in the ass I will have no one to blame but myself.


LL
 
LL You are absolutely right. But at least you're going in with your eyes open. We all must live by our decisions. I wish I never did Deca, but I did and I'll live with the consequences. I also wish I didn't eat so much candy as a kid, or smoke as much weed as I did in my younger years, or put my dick in as many skanks -- wait a minute , I'm digressing a little bit here.

The point is, if someone told me of the dangers, I may have thought twice, or at least what Frackal had decided to do, play it a little more conservatively.

And Atermigy, that's bullshit. I am not just saying don't do it because I say say. There's plenty of evidence presented. Open your eyes. I can't say for sure I know your future. I hope you'll stay healthy. But just remeber, Paul Borreson looked pretty fucking awesome once upon a time. A lot of good it's doing him now.
 
Nelson your points are well taken... I will continue what I believe is a safe cycle. But posts like yours do help us to continually challenge what we are doing...
 
Athernigy said:


You just keep saying it's bad and expect us to believe it without ANY proof. I have probably done more insulin than anyone on this board (or pretty much up there) and have yet to have a side effect. Please enlighten me with my future problems ...

-sk
Click to expand...

No offense SK, but either the insulin you bought went bad or it was fake.

I read the dosages you used.

No way. You'd be 6 feet under now with the amount you used.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


No offense SK, but either the insulin you bought went bad or it was fake.

I read the dosages you used.

No way. You'd be 6 feet under now with the amount you used.

Fonz
Click to expand...

Once i brought humalog from a canada pharmacy and 2times from a local CVS (humalin R), I have gone as high as 100iu per day (only once) and a few times to 80iu and usually just do 60iu. I gain a lot of size (near 2lbs per day when I hit high and eat a lot). Now obviously this isn't all muscle, but the slin isn't bunk. I am obviously insulin resistent ... but I really doubt I am going to die. I take time off to make sure I don't notice any problems, and I don't.

-sk
 
By the way, the two times I went and specifically brought from CVS because I thought the humalog had gone bad on the way to my house. I kept it refregirated the second I got home. And insulin is just too cheap to fake, and there is no way it went bad three times.

-sk
 
Nelson Montana said:
And Atermigy, that's bullshit. I am not just saying don't do it because I say say. There's plenty of evidence presented. Open your eyes. I can't say for sure I know your future. I hope you'll stay healthy. But just remeber, Paul Borreson looked pretty fucking awesome once upon a time. A lot of good it's doing him now.
Click to expand...

Even before doing pot for a couple times I went online and researched it to death, I really need to see the proof for slin so I stop. Believe me, i'll stop. By the way, 1gram of test didn't do nearly as much for me as insulin does ...

-sk
 
i just took my slin out of the fridge and stared at it for a few minutes... damn, i just gained 10 lbs! -lol-

i will put it off another week, i have enough probs for now.
 
Sk, I dont care if you have the insulin sensitivity of a pile of dogshit, you're fucking insane to use that much period...to the others, this is where I think we'll hear about people dying from insulin....Sk what happens if something WAS wrong with your slin, then say you buy another bottle that is at full potency, shoot your normal 20 ius at a time or whatever and 45 min later you are on the floor...


BTW Nelson why do you wish you never used deca? Gyno??
 
ALso wanted to add that I have been doing some reading, and need to do more, on the use of insulin shock therapy on drug addicts and schizophrenics...so far I have not come across any evidence of insulin-induced diabetes from that...
 
units vs iu vs mg etc...

could we be talking about apples to oranges on the "type" of unit? are you saying 100 units as in 2 full .5cc slin darts of slin!

Quote:
Once i brought humalog from a canada pharmacy and 2times from a local CVS (humalin R), I have gone as high as 100iu per day (only once) and a few times to 80iu and usually just do 60iu. I gain a lot of size (near 2lbs per day when I hit high and eat a lot). Now obviously this isn't all muscle, but the slin isn't bunk. I am obviously insulin resistent ... but I really doubt I am going to die. I take time off to make sure I don't notice any problems, and I don't.
 
i am about to be starting my second cycle of humalog. my first cycle was four weeks, 1 shot of 10 iu's sunday, tuesday, and thurday of each week, right after workout. i am an ectomorph in the purest form and slin has been a freakin miracle for me. twice i went up to 15 iu's, the only side i noticed was i got a little shaky and really hungry, i ate everything in site and i was fine. 10 iu's i notice pretty much no sides at all. i have had several blood tests taken while ive been on slin because i am on accutane and im fit as a fiddle. this next cycle i am only doing a three week cycle because that is when i made the biggest strength and muscle gains. of course i take creatine and glutamine as well.slin was my first time of injecting anything. and i mean duh, i didnt go into this thing not knowing shit. i researched a good six months on this stuff before i even considered trying it. you cant just fuck around with this stuff. i took every precaution, i always had a bag of swedish fish candy on me in case i ver went hypo, but those things are so good id eat em even if i wasnt hypo so i never even got the chance to get hypo. i did gain a little fat, but i have lost it since the 4 weeks i have been off of it. I am going to try using n-large 2 and mix in some optimum nutrition 100% whey protein for some extra protein. i think this upcoming cycle of humalog will be even better than the last, now that i am more familiar with the process and learned more about the way MY body responds to it.
 
DJ; What kind of gains did you make?

This isn't a set up question, I responded very well to insulin only too. I went from 375 x 8 squats to 405 x 8 in the 4 weeks post cycle with slin. Not a ton per se, but I was looking to maintain, what a plesant surprise.. Got a little harder and put a 2-3 lbs on to.. Did'nt get BF tested so I have no idea. I am glad to see you went up and came back down, take enough for effect, no more.
 
i gained about 14 lbs total, and then cut down the fat % and in the end a 12 lb gain. im an ectomorph so that is a TON. im extremely short, between 5'4 and 5'5, and im 142 lbs as of now. but believe me, the shortness does not make the 142 lbs look skinny. i am also pretty top heavy due to the fact that when i first started training a few years ago (98 lbs when i first started training, and i was only maybe an inch shorter at the time) and i would only workout upper body. but my bench went from repping 175 for 10 reps to 215 for 10 reps. i know i dont compare to 90% of you guys who can bench and weigh twice as much as me, but i was not gifted with the height and genetics that many of you have, nor the balls to do AAS (yet some are afraid to do slin, and that is the only thing i do...kinda ironic) also, with the 4 weeks ive been off of creatine, i have not lost any strength or weight. i still do the same amount of reps for every set at the same weights i did it. unfortunately, i have not been able to do squats or deadlifts or bent over barbell rows due to the back pain from the accutane. its a real killer. i get a lot of neck pain from the barbell shoulder press as well, but i love that exercise so i keep doing it. but until the aches go away in the back, i must stay away from squats and such. i use the nautilus equipment sometimes, because that is easier on my back, but i hate machines as much as i hate onions. and i REALLY hate onions.
 
Frackal said:
Sk, I dont care if you have the insulin sensitivity of a pile of dogshit, you're fucking insane to use that much period...to the others, this is where I think we'll hear about people dying from insulin....Sk what happens if something WAS wrong with your slin, then say you buy another bottle that is at full potency, shoot your normal 20 ius at a time or whatever and 45 min later you are on the floor...


BTW Nelson why do you wish you never used deca? Gyno??
Click to expand...

First shot of all 3bottles has been 2iu's. I don't wanna die just yet.

-sk
 
Re: most iu

graffixx said:
what was your largest single dose?
Click to expand...

35iu's. The day that I did 100iu's I shot up 35, 35, 30ius. First 35 upon waking up, another 35 after lifting and the last 30 a few hours before sleeping.

-sk
 
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