Input please on training back while avoiding overtraining bis

[RottenWillow]

There must be someone else around here who has struggled with this same dilemma.

Since biceps are activated when performing any upper body pulling movement, they get a lot of work. I find that mine do not grow at all without either doing no direct bi work at all (i.e bicep curls) or doing very little upper back work. Historically I've had to choose whether I wanted bis or upper/mid back to grow during a given period. I've tried training both on the same day of course to maximize recovery period, with no luck. If I reduce back work to the point that bis are able to start growing, then back doesn't get enough work to grow.

gotta be a way though. Have any of you guys dealt with this and figured out a way to make it work?

 

[joe d]

direct bi work eow. underhand grip back work eow. ?

 

[sunkyman]

I was having the same problem. My current split seems to be working for me:
Mon-legs, lower back
Tue-chest, bi's, abs, shoulders
Wed-cardio
Thur-legs, lower back
Fri-cardio
Sat-back, tri's, abs
Sun-rest
When doing back, I pre-exhaust on pullover machine then go immediately to pull downs. While I don't superset these exercises, I can see where it might be a good idea. For pulldowns I use a light weight with strict form and a pause/contraction at the bottom. I like the handle with the pronated grip.
For working sets I use hanging ab straps attached to the handle which takes the biceps out of the equation and hammers my lats pretty good. I do rowing exercises in the usual manner. For me, it was the pulldowns/chins that really seemed to trash my biceps. I have yet to develope a good mind-muscle connection with my lats during pulldowns/chins, which I understand is pretty common.

 

[SaiBoT]

There must be someone else around here who has struggled with this same dilemma.

Since biceps are activated when performing any upper body pulling movement, they get a lot of work. I find that mine do not grow at all without either doing no direct bi work at all (i.e bicep curls) or doing very little upper back work. Historically I've had to choose whether I wanted bis or upper/mid back to grow during a given period. I've tried training both on the same day of course to maximize recovery period, with no luck. If I reduce back work to the point that bis are able to start growing, then back doesn't get enough work to grow.

gotta be a way though. Have any of you guys dealt with this and figured out a way to make it work?

Train for back width and bis in one section, back thickness in another with 4 days between each session.

On back width day start with a pullover either dumbell or barbell 3x12 with max weight you can handle with perfect form, then go to chin-ups 3 sets of 12-15 with constant tension, but it's not like you need to get your chin past the bar, just make sure you contract your lats on top and go for a full stretch at the bottom, the rep pace should be fast but controlled so you can get the most reps possible. After these proceed with inclined db curl (30-45 degrees bench) 3 sets of 10 with max weight perfect reps ( hammer grip at the botton, elevated pinky at the top without sacrificing contraction) then any other bis exercise you like.

For back thickness do this 4 days after you previous training, 3x12 pullover (again lol) barbell row or machine row 3x12 and then deadlifts normal setup. For overall back hypertrophy a good mind-muscle connection it's essential imho so feel it.

Even if you don't do this keep in mind that pre exhaust and mind-muscle connection are very important and valuable tools for achieving your goals specifically.

Now let me go before, the ferocious defensors of the heavy pulling and "no isolation movements" come and point a finger at me...

 

[the.gladiator1987]

i have the same problem as far as my bis getting activated too much during lat pulldowns/chins.

how do you establish that mind muscle connection? i like the routine saibot

 

[Big_BK]

Mind muscle connection has alot to do with it.

 

[RottenWillow]

Some good ideas, guys. Thanks.

You'll all have to trust me when I say I keep bis out of pulldowns as much as is possible while bending one's arms. Elbows way back, chest arched upwards, arms as hooks, the whole thing. I get a very good lat pump from the very first set, and keep my weight light which helps me feel the lats working a lot better.

Wow...pullovers to preexhaust. Hadn't even thought of that one. Forearms stays in a fixed position so that should really minimize bi involvement. I'm a chick though. I can't get enough chins to make it a mass builder, so I'd go straight into pulldowns. I'm gonna need a form video on dumbbells pullovers though. It's been so long since I've seen one done I'm sure I'll screw up the form. Anyone got a link that feel is particularly good for form instruction?

 

[RottenWillow]

i have the same problem as far as my bis getting activated too much during lat pulldowns/chins.

how do you establish that mind muscle connection? i like the routine saibot

For me the breakthrough never came until I got ridiculously light on my pulldown poundage. That was the thing that allowed me to finally feel and "see" the scapula being pulled down and together by the lats. I pictured it like a big drawstring on a heavy canvas bag. Then just remembering to keep the elbows way back and always try to lift my chest to touch the descending bar kept me in line.

 

[SaiBoT]

i have the same problem as far as my bis getting activated too much during lat pulldowns/chins.

how do you establish that mind muscle connection? i like the routine saibot

That's something that comes with time and experience, but stretching a muscle and pose practice really speeds it up, not only between sets... make it a throughout the day thing so it becomes as natural as breathing. Then when you are able to do it without touching and looking to your muscles, go and do that same thing when you are doing the actual lifting (it works better with low weights at first).

The most dificult connections to establish are indeed the ones to the all posterior chain muscles because as you don't see them as much as the front ones, these are often neglected.

Hope this helps

 

[the.gladiator1987]

That's something that comes with time and experience, but stretching a muscle and pose practice really speeds it up, not only between sets... make it a throughout the day thing so it becomes as natural as breathing. Then when you are able to do it without touching and looking to your muscles, go and do that same thing when you are doing the actual lifting (it works better with low weights at first).

The most dificult connections to establish are indeed the ones to the all posterior chain muscles because as you don't see them as much as the front ones, these are often neglected.

Hope this helps

Thanks OP, ill keep my chest high and arms back.

And Saibot, this helps. How do you stretch the lats and pose the lats?

 

[SaiBoT]

Some good ideas, guys. Thanks.

You'll all have to trust me when I say I keep bis out of pulldowns as much as is possible while bending one's arms. Elbows way back, chest arched upwards, arms as hooks, the whole thing. I get a very good lat pump from the very first set, and keep my weight light which helps me feel the lats working a lot better.

Wow...pullovers to preexhaust. Hadn't even thought of that one. Forearms stays in a fixed position so that should really minimize bi involvement. I'm a chick though. I can't get enough chins to make it a mass builder, so I'd go straight into pulldowns. I'm gonna need a form video on dumbbells pullovers though. It's been so long since I've seen one done I'm sure I'll screw up the form. Anyone got a link that feel is particularly good for form instruction?

YouTube - Weight Lifting Exercises : Weight Lifting Exercises: Dumbbell Pullovers

This video looks fine, but when i do it i like to stretch even more at the bottom and not bring the dumbell so high above the chest so i don't lose the tension in the lats. Still you should play it safe at first because of the shoulders joints.

 

[SaiBoT]

Thanks OP, ill keep my chest high and arms back.

And Saibot, this helps. How do you stretch the lats and pose the lats?

For stretch this is a great video, pay attention to the details:

YouTube - How Do I Stretch My Lats?

As for the lat poses here's another great one:


YouTube - Figure Posing Clinic: Learning the Lat Spread

 

[fortunatesun]

Seated Good Mornings might be worth a try:



GMs are listed as a lower back exercise but the seated version takes out a lot of the hamstrings and glutes. Emphasise mid and upper back even more by going low - touch your nose to the bench and feel your lats stretch.

Olympic lifters that do a lot of overhead work often use this exercise to build and strengthen their backs. Might be useful for you as well.

 

[RottenWillow]

YouTube - Weight Lifting Exercises : Weight Lifting Exercises: Dumbbell Pullovers

This video looks fine, but when i do it i like to stretch even more at the bottom and not bring the dumbell so high above the chest so i don't lose the tension in the lats. Still you should play it safe at first because of the shoulders joints.

One of the comments on youtube was that the poster felt pullovers activated the lats more if you keep your arms straight. Do you agree? That would be the form I'd want to follow if that's accurate.

 

[SaiBoT]

One of the comments on youtube was that the poster felt pullovers activated the lats more if you keep your arms straight. Do you agree? That would be the form I'd want to follow if that's accurate.

Yes i do, straight arms it's better, but becautious because it might be a little harsh on the shoulders.

Also what fortunatesun suggested sounds worth trying.

 

[SpyWizard]

Train for back width and bis in one section, back thickness in another with 4 days between each session.

On back width day start with a pullover either dumbell or barbell 3x12 with max weight you can handle with perfect form, then go to chin-ups 3 sets of 12-15 with constant tension, but it's not like you need to get your chin past the bar, just make sure you contract your lats on top and go for a full stretch at the bottom, the rep pace should be fast but controlled so you can get the most reps possible. After these proceed with inclined db curl (30-45 degrees bench) 3 sets of 10 with max weight perfect reps ( hammer grip at the botton, elevated pinky at the top without sacrificing contraction) then any other bis exercise you like.

For back thickness do this 4 days after you previous training, 3x12 pullover (again lol) barbell row or machine row 3x12 and then deadlifts normal setup. For overall back hypertrophy a good mind-muscle connection it's essential imho so feel it.

Even if you don't do this keep in mind that pre exhaust and mind-muscle connection are very important and valuable tools for achieving your goals specifically.

Now let me go before, the ferocious defensors of the heavy pulling and "no isolation movements" come and point a finger at me...

tooo late

 

[SaiBoT]

tooo late

Hahaha, eventually they'll learn that the answer lies on keeping an open-mind