HST - Devils Advocate............

[JKurz1]

I was thinking about this last night and something really concerned me. I might be wrong, but doesnt the program say you do the same exercises 3x a week for 2 working sets? OK, how is this possible? For example, I benched hard last Tuesday with my final set I being 315 for 4.......now, I was sore as hell for most of the week and when I went to do chest again YESTERDAY, I could still feel the tenderness......enough to have to go very light......so, how in the hell would I have gone 100% 3 days last week with bench??? Impossible.......

 

[JAYMAN014]

You don't go 100% You start with your max @ 15 reps on bench say 200pds. Take a week off to let CNS heal then start Mon Chest 150 15reps Wed 160 15reps FRI 170 15 reps Ect, In 2weeks your have climbed to your original max, Then start with you 10rep max and climb the same way for 2weeks. You never really max out killing your recovery times. This allows you to hit the same muscle group 3 times a week.

 

[JKurz1]

Ok, but then you go to 5 rep max, right???? 5 reps should be an all out working set, like I said I did in my last set....there was no way I could do it again on wed, or friday, esp. since I did 315 for 4 (say 5), then 325 for 5 on wed and 335 for 5 on friday??>????? Ummm...no.

 

[Dieharder]

Ok, but then you go to 5 rep max, right???? 5 reps should be an all out working set, like I said I did in my last set....there was no way I could do it again on wed, or friday, esp. since I did 315 for 4 (say 5), then 325 for 5 on wed and 335 for 5 on friday??>????? Ummm...no.

5 reps would only be an all out working set on your final day, this isnt rocket science

 

[JKurz1]

5 reps would only be an all out working set on your final day, this isnt rocket science

I guess for me, it is....just a total baffeling moron...you're ar just the man DH....anyways, 5 reps isnt for the whole last week?

 

[halfaclue]

Ok, but then you go to 5 rep max, right???? 5 reps should be an all out working set, like I said I did in my last set....there was no way I could do it again on wed, or friday, esp. since I did 315 for 4 (say 5), then 325 for 5 on wed and 335 for 5 on friday??>????? Ummm...no.

If your rep max was 315 then subtract 10lbs a day for 5 days so monday when you start your 5 rep max you do 2 sets of 5 reps with 265..wednesday 2 sest of 5 with 275...friday 2 sets of 5 with 285
next monday 2 sets of 5 with 295...wednesdsay 2 sets of 5 with 305 and friday the very las day you do 2 sets of 5 with 315.

 

[Dieharder]

If your rep max was 315 then subtract 10lbs a day for 5 days so monday when you start your 5 rep max you do 2 sets of 5 reps with 265..wednesday 2 sest of 5 with 275...friday 2 sets of 5 with 285
next monday 2 sets of 5 with 295...wednesdsay 2 sets of 5 with 305 and friday the very las day you do 2 sets of 5 with 315.

exactly

 

[InTraining]

I think everyone has explained it pretty well...

Two things I don't understand is how 1. one grows off lesser weights than they are used to using(maybe because of different rep ranges 15's 10's 5's and slower negatives?) and
2. I don't think hitting failure is a part of the program..but that makes sense as weights are constantly moving up...

Anyways...just my 2 worthless cents

 

[JKurz1]

I think everyone has explained it pretty well...

Two things I don't understand is how 1. one grows off lesser weights than they are used to using(maybe because of different rep ranges 15's 10's 5's and slower negatives?) and
2. I don't think hitting failure is a part of the program..but that makes sense as weights are constantly moving up...

Anyways...just my 2 worthless cents

 

[Dieharder]

because basically hypertrophy is easier to come by from SUB MAXIMAL LIFTING, hst is not concerned at all with strength, just size, by stimulating the muscle more than once a week like most do you are sending a message to that muscle to repair itself and grow. this works because of the deconditioning period.

 

[InTraining]

because basically hypertrophy is easier to come by from SUB MAXIMAL LIFTING, hst is not concerned at all with strength, just size, by stimulating the muscle more than once a week like most do you are sending a message to that muscle to repair itself and grow. this works because of the deconditioning period.

I thought the most muscle fibers were recruited towards the last reps of the set?

I think I need to change some things around that I have always thought to be true...

 

[halfaclue]

I thought the most muscle fibers were recruited towards the last reps of the set?

I think I need to change some things around that I have always thought to be true...

Its also "what works for you". 5*5 seems to be working great for my legs and back but my arms and chest aren't responding to it at all. I'm going to give HST a try and who knows it may suck ass for me but it is 6weeks and I think i'll be able to tell enough if I want to continue it.....that is if I ever get help starting it!!

 

[InTraining]

Its also "what works for you". 5*5 seems to be working great for my legs and back but my arms and chest aren't responding to it at all. I'm going to give HST a try and who knows it may suck ass for me but it is 6weeks and I think i'll be able to tell enough if I want to continue it.....that is if I ever get help starting it!!

I have been experimenting a lot lately with rep ranges for different bodyparts...I found 5-6 reps to not work out too well for size gains unless we are talking like a rack deadlift or BB row or a BB curl...had to up the reps to 8-15 to get some size gains especially on arms

HST claims to have science behind it...and I want to know what their results are

Keep us filled in on how it goes for you and what types of gains you get

 

[psilo]

All of these questions are answered in the FAQ over at hypertrophy-specific.com. I'm just now starting on a cycle of HST. I'll let everyone know how it goes in 6 weeks when I finish.

 

[halfaclue]

All of these questions are answered in the FAQ over at hypertrophy-specific.com. I'm just now starting on a cycle of HST. I'll let everyone know how it goes in 6 weeks when I finish.

My question isn't so much a question but suggestions as to what excercises I need to do. I understand they taking your max and subtracting weight to go back 6 workouts and all that. I just don't know what excercises to use to make sure I hit all the compund movements as well as the proper number of isolation movements.

 

[InTraining]

My question isn't so much a question but suggestions as to what excercises I need to do. I understand they taking your max and subtracting weight to go back 6 workouts and all that. I just don't know what excercises to use to make sure I hit all the compund movements as well as the proper number of isolation movements.

I could PM you the HST routine I made if you care...I thought it looked pretty good...on paper at least

 

[halfaclue]

I could PM you the HST routine I made if you care...I thought it looked pretty good...on paper at least

Do it up.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

There's still confusion over this? Jesus.

HST FAQ - read everything here, first. Your science is all here.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=SF;f=13

HST Testimonials - read 15 pages and see what it's done for people.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=14;t=21

 

[psilo]

Here's my current split: (not training legs because I'm in season for soccer)

Incline BB Press
Flat DB Press
Deadlift
Pullups
T-Bar Row
Upright Row
BB Curl
Dips
Tri Pushdown
Crunches
Rear Delt Machine

 

[WalkingBeast]

There's still confusion over this? Jesus.

HST FAQ - read everything here, first. Your science is all here.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=SF;f=13

HST Testimonials - read 15 pages and see what it's done for people.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=14;t=21

A small word of caution: You may not see the walking beast testimonial on the site. If this presents a problem, I urge you NOT to visit the website.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

A small word of caution: You may not see the walking beast testimonial on the site. If this presents a problem, I urge you NOT to visit the website.

 

[Debaser]

I'm really baffled at the amount of confusion this program creates. Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but it's pretty simple and I'm not sure why it gets misinterpreted so much.

Jkurz you aren't going to failure each workout. You have 2 weeks each of 15s, 10s, and 5s. Failure is reached at the end of each 2 week "block." For example, say your 5 rep max was 300 lbs. The 2 weeks would look like this:

Monday - 225 x 5
Wednesday - 240 x 5
Friday - 255 x 5
Monday - 270 x 5
Wednesday - 285 x 5
Friday - 300 x 5

By the way, soreness is not really an indicator of anything. You shouldn't gauge recovery, workout efficacy, or growth potential in any way based on soreness.

To intraining: the main reason the submaximal weights work is the Strategic Deconditioning.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

15 lb. incretments, Debaser? Sounds like a bit much. Usually people stick to 5-10.

 

[Dieharder]

if i see another hst post i think i may puke

 

[Debaser]

15 lb. incretments, Debaser? Sounds like a bit much. Usually people stick to 5-10.

It's about percentages. You start at 75% max on the first day, and raise 5% each workout till you reach 100% (failure).

 

[JKurz1]

I'm really baffled at the amount of confusion this program creates. Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but it's pretty simple and I'm not sure why it gets misinterpreted so much.

Jkurz you aren't going to failure each workout. You have 2 weeks each of 15s, 10s, and 5s. Failure is reached at the end of each 2 week "block." For example, say your 5 rep max was 300 lbs. The 2 weeks would look like this:

Monday - 225 x 5
Wednesday - 240 x 5
Friday - 255 x 5
Monday - 270 x 5
Wednesday - 285 x 5
Friday - 300 x 5

By the way, soreness is not really an indicator of anything. You shouldn't gauge recovery, workout efficacy, or growth potential in any way based on soreness.

To intraining: the main reason the submaximal weights work is the Strategic Deconditioning.

ok...thanks.....now explain the point.......If I bench on Monday, I get 315 for 5.....then, the following monday I either try to get 315 for 6 or 320 for 5.....so, on your routine, I'm making no progress and then after 2 weeks, I'm still where I started....

 

[InTraining]

ok...thanks.....now explain the point.......If I bench on Monday, I get 315 for 5.....then, the following monday I either try to get 315 for 6 or 320 for 5.....so, on your routine, I'm making no progress and then after 2 weeks, I'm still where I started....

YES!! Exactly the question I wanted to ask...

I'm not trying to knock the program or just be a skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic either....I WANT TO TRY THE PROGRAM..

I read the links that Tom T. provided and I guess the answer to your question Jkurz is that after the SD period submaximal weights will still provide the stimulus for growth...a function of "muscle memory"

 

[Backlash]

ok...thanks.....now explain the point.......If I bench on Monday, I get 315 for 5.....then, the following monday I either try to get 315 for 6 or 320 for 5.....so, on your routine, I'm making no progress and then after 2 weeks, I'm still where I started....

The point is HYPERTROPHY, not strength. You are breking down the muscle fibers (and hopefully eating a ton) and inducing growth every workout. You hit chest 6 times in 2 weeks, which gives 6 chances to grow in 2 weeks, rather than 2-4. The progressive resistance is there. The SD allows the lighter weights you start with to still cause hypertrophy.

 

[Dieharder]

holy fucking god, if you benched 315 for 5 when getting your 5 rep max, YOU DO NOT BENCH above 315 in your HST program until YOUR LAST DAY OF THE PROGRAM how hard can this possibly be

 

[JKurz1]

holy fucking god, if you benched 315 for 5 when getting your 5 rep max, YOU DO NOT BENCH above 315 in your HST program until YOUR LAST DAY OF THE PROGRAM how hard can this possibly be

Hey take a f-ing valuum bruo....geezus......that's exactly why this routine makes no sense to many of us......are you seeing that your case holds no water????? You havent convinced anyone of shit with this routine that's why so many questions are being asked.......so, while you're busy fooling around with 270 for 5 reps, then 280 or whatever, I'll be on my way to surpassing my 315 mark.....YOU SEE NOW?

 

[Dieharder]

no i dont, basically ive come to the conclusion that your an idiot, i DONT do hst, but i can read, you seriously are impossible to talk to, you and your 500 posts a day asking the same fucking questions and then NOT listening at all.

 

[JKurz1]

no i dont, basically ive come to the conclusion that your an idiot, i DONT do hst, but i can read, you seriously are impossible to talk to, you and your 500 posts a day asking the same fucking questions and then NOT listening at all.

ahahahaha......

 

[JKurz1]

no i dont, basically ive come to the conclusion that your an idiot, i DONT do hst, but i can read, you seriously are impossible to talk to, you and your 500 posts a day asking the same fucking questions and then NOT listening at all.

You wanna go get a beer?

 

[Dieharder]

You wanna go get a beer?

ok i flew off the handle a little, but whatever im done with this thread, im going to run some sprints

 

[halfaclue]

Hey take a f-ing valuum bruo....geezus......that's exactly why this routine makes no sense to many of us......are you seeing that your case holds no water????? You havent convinced anyone of shit with this routine that's why so many questions are being asked.......so, while you're busy fooling around with 270 for 5 reps, then 280 or whatever, I'll be on my way to surpassing my 315 mark.....YOU SEE NOW?

JK...you have the wrong mental state here. What you do and train for are strength increases where this is for size. If you do 5*5 with 315 for bench you wouldn't lift chest 6 times in 2 weeks...so if you want to lift chest 6 times in 2 weeks you use less weight then you can actually handle. You are still going to break down muscle (maybe not as much) that will require repairs and thus growth.

 

[Debaser]

Hey take a f-ing valuum bruo....geezus......that's exactly why this routine makes no sense to many of us......are you seeing that your case holds no water????? You havent convinced anyone of shit with this routine that's why so many questions are being asked.......so, while you're busy fooling around with 270 for 5 reps, then 280 or whatever, I'll be on my way to surpassing my 315 mark.....YOU SEE NOW?

Yes but are you surpassing that mark 3 times a week, every week?

With HST, you're growing 3 x as often as a traditional once a week routine, and the weight is continually progressing.

 

[InTraining]

I think what we are failing to agree on is that SUBMAXIMAL WEIGHTS WILL YIELD HYPERTROPHY...

Most(including myself) think that we need to continuously get stronger in order to grow...that is true to some extent but eventually we will hit plateaus

This is why there is the strategic deconditioning period...so that your muscles react to the lesser( in terms of weight) stimulus being placed on them...

 

[view]

dieharder, you need to smoke a fatty and relax man.

don't take offense because people don't train the way you think they should.

i just read another thread in this forum about hst -- and it got me thinking about fun --and most people lift however they feel comfortable -- which is usually a fun way. even if it means training everything once per week and getting sore after every workout.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I agree with view here in the sense that, it all boils down to having fun in the gym. For most people, anyway. WalkingBeast, for example, loves to get sore. He has to pound the muscle groups from every angle a thousand times over. I think that's ludicrous, but you know what? He has fun, and he makes progress. That's all that matters. Somewhere along the line, people lose sight of that.

Now, we do have to agree that it's submaximal weights and constant progression that causes hypertrophy.

Debaser, not once have I heard that you start with 75% of your max with HST. I just heard count back in 5-10 lb. incretments, and I've read most everything on that site. Maybe I skipped over something, so care to point me to something that actually says that? I'm not doubting you, just wanna see it actually written, 'cuz using percentages does make sense.

Anyway, the four principles of hypertrophy are mechanical load, progressive loading, frequency, and strategic deconditioning. These were discovered in the lab, anyway, and by science, are sound methods which induce hypertrophy. Now, I can't preach and say it will work 100% for everyone, because there are always exceptions to rules but for the general majority, I can say that the ideas behind HST will work through and through to cause some of the best gains in size possible.

You can increase in strength some with HST, but it's primarily for size.

If anyone still has questions, ask away.

 

[Debaser]

Debaser, not once have I heard that you start with 75% of your max with HST. I just heard count back in 5-10 lb. incretments, and I've read most everything on that site. Maybe I skipped over something, so care to point me to something that actually says that? I'm not doubting you, just wanna see it actually written, 'cuz using percentages does make sense.

There's an HST spreadsheet available somewhere, you plug in your maxes and it calculates everything for you. I assume it's accurate, but I'd like to hear something more concrete. Casual may know this. To me using percentages makes more sense than a simple number...what if you're squatting 700 lbs? If you only used 5-10 lbs each session, you'd be working pretty close to failure every time.

 

[casualbb]

One of my first posts on the HST thread in the training methods sticky says all this in more detail, but here goes:

Bodybuilding is a "sport" that predates modern medical science. Thus bodybuilding tradition isn't based on what works in a scientific sense, just what has worked for somebody one time who also happened to be famous (arnold, arthur jones, mentzer).

So. A lot of these guys thought that in order to make any progress you have to train with "intensity," or to failure limits. A lot of people still think that now. The view has been entrenched for decades.

In the past 10-15 years advances in medical science have allowed us to find out how it really actually works. And they found the following:

-muscle growth is caused by the muscle experiencing "unaccustomed" loads, or higher weights than they are used to
-when these weights are lifted, the muscle will grow, but it will also become resistant to further growth at that given weight
-This resistance can be reversed through a period of inactivity
-muscle growth lasts for 36-48 hours

**NOTE: ALL OF THESE CLAIMS ARE TRUE**

Those four facts are all you really need to invent HST.
1. Muscle grows for 36-48 hours.
-> workout 3-4x per week for continuous growth
2. Muscles grow in response to unaccustomed weights
3. They then become resistant to growth from that weight
-> increase the weight a noticeable amount every session
4. Time off reverses the resistance
-> once you're accustomed to the highest weight you can lift, take some time off so that lighter ones will work again. Practical experience dictates 9-14 days.

That's it; that's why HST is the way it is. Once a lifter understands these principles he will suddenly understand why every routine he ever did either was or wasn't effective.

For instance, just by virtue of fucking around needsize noticed that if he adds 5-10 pounds to each lift every week on a traditional weekly split, it suddenly became much more effective. Thus needsize's 5x5 routine was born, and many here can vouch as to its quality. All it really does differently is the weight progression, but that makes a world of difference! It also incorporates a sort of deconditioning, which doubtless adds to the program's effect.

But the point is, the better a routine conforms to these known rules of muscle growth the more effective it will be. If you don't like the way HST does things, a creative lifter should be able to design his own routine using the principles listed that will both BE EFFECTIVE and BE FULFILLING.

 

[casualbb]

Oh, as to increments.

This is one of the most often-asked questions.

The best progress I made using HST was when I used big increments and had a lot of overlap. Now I try to rig it so there's about 2 workouts worth of overlap in the beginning of each 2-week rep range.

That figures to about 5% of my 5RM. Percentages ARE better because it allows for extreme strength and extreme weakness in designing a program.

 

[Debaser]

That figures to about 5% of my 5RM. Percentages ARE better because it allows for extreme strength and extreme weakness in designing a program.

I'm a genius, what can I say

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I'm a genius, what can I say

Right asshole.

 

[InTraining]

Quick question casualbb.. I'm going to do my first HST cycle in the next few weeks...should I just use the spreadsheet from the site to see how I respond?

I've read all the FAQ threads.... and you are saying percentages are better but does it really matter that much if it is the first time with the program?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, it does make more sense to use percentages, so just try those man. It won't be hard to figure out on your own, you don't need the calculator on that site. If you need help, you can PM me, post here, or IM me on AIM (if you use it). Seeking Solace 0.

Seems like a lot more people are becoming interested in HST.

 

[casualbb]

Well I would only ever use multiples of 2.5 pounds for increments. Just do a quick mental calculation. Your 10RM is 255. 5% ~ 13. Round up to 15 pounds. Roger that?

 

[InTraining]

Well, it does make more sense to use percentages, so just try those man. It won't be hard to figure out on your own, you don't need the calculator on that site. If you need help, you can PM me, post here, or IM me on AIM (if you use it). Seeking Solace 0.

Seems like a lot more people are becoming interested in HST.

Ok thanks man I'll probably contact you on AIM...I've come up with a routine already and read all those links you posted....

I really don't care what weights I lift I just want to grow I think that's the appeal of HST..if one is able to leave the ego at the door seems like there is a lot potential for growth...

 

[InTraining]

Well I would only ever use multiples of 2.5 pounds for increments. Just do a quick mental calculation. Your 10RM is 255. 5% ~ 13. Round up to 15 pounds. Roger that?

Ok..just seems like 15 lbs is quite a jump per session...but if one is starting really low why not ?

Just gets a tad confusing as the site said "bigger jumps on squats..dls...etc" than say a BB Curl..but I think I can understand why...

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well if you make 15 lb. jumps on curls, you're going to be curling negative weight. If you use 2.5-5 lbs. on curls, you'll be able to tell the difference. Can you really tell a big difference between 2.5-5 lbs. on squats or deads? Not likely. Bigger movements, bigger increments.

 

[InTraining]

Well if you make 15 lb. jumps on curls, you're going to be curling negative weight. If you use 2.5-5 lbs. on curls, you'll be able to tell the difference. Can you really tell a big difference between 2.5-5 lbs. on squats or deads? Not likely. Bigger movements, bigger increments.

Yup..also like Debaser pointed out before if one is squatting 700lbs 5 lb increments are going to be real close to that weight..and also take quite a toll on the CNS IMHO especially with 3x a week

 

[Tom Treutlein]

There you go. You're getting it!

 

[InTraining]

There you go. You're getting it!

Slowly but surely I will IM you in a few min...eating right now

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Go for it. I'm always online. Literally. I'm a waste.

 

[TRUEsoldier]

A small word of caution: You may not see the walking beast testimonial on the site. If this presents a problem, I urge you NOT to visit the website.

LMFAO!!

 

[Allon]

Ok, I am going to annoy the fuck outta all of you now but I have to ask.
What if I go for max on each set and try to add weight each workout or each week, for example.
week 1 Monday - 15 reps X 100 pounds or whatever
Wed - The same
Fri - 15 X 105

Etc etc....

I don't think I would be too sore to work out after two days as I would only be doing 2 sets per workout!!

 

[Allon]

Just to make this crystal clear, in my example above, take it that 100 would be the max load for 15 reps...

 

[casualbb]

Even at low sets, maximal weights are maximal weights

HST only has you do maximal weights once every two weeks. Even with that, the program has to be tweaked to avoid constant fatigue

I think you would plateau very quickly

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I agree with Casual. You would "overtrain" in a matter of weeks. Even back in the Reg Park days, training 3x a week was cycled. Heavy, medium and light training days.

You can try it, but I'd stick with maximal weights two times a week the most. And if you do that, you had better keep the volume low.