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Holy Ghost - PLEASE READ, im calling you out

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Cryptlord

New member
Holy, I made this post to inform you of some of your posts that I feel may be a bad example to new members as well as the overall community. I feel you need to made aware of some of your actions so in the future you can maybe take it down a notch. This is in all due respect, because you are an asset to this board and others. You provide good advice 90% so please dont take this the wrong way.

This is what you claimed you will run for your next cycle. Thats over 2grams a week and you run orals for 10 weeks straight at over 50mg? Dude seriously, that is so hard on your liver its ridiculous.
holy ghost said:
FUck that heres my next cycle

1-3 Dianabol - methandrostenolone - 50mg ed
1-4 Superdrol (methyl-masteron) 30mg ED
4-10 Winstrol - stanozolol 50mg ed
1-10 mast 600mg EW - M W F
1-10 trenbolone e 600mg EW -M W F
1-10 Test 1g EW - M F
8-10 halotestin 20mg-40mg ed

might do 50mcg igf 3x ew pwo for 4wks on 4 wks off

that is toxic ! your sis just INSANE!

Here is another cycle you claimed to have ran... again this has about 2grams a week and 10 weeks of very toxic orals. Seriously, 100mg Dianabol - methandrostenolone - abombs ed? Please.
holy ghost said:
1-10 test 1g ew
1-10 trenbolone e 800mg ew
1-4 Dianabol - methandrostenolone - abombs 100mg ed
4-6 Winstrol - stanozolol 50mg ed
8-10 halo 20--40mg ed

Dont run that though, thats one i ran before for crazy str

This cycle below was recommend to a new member weighing 185 on outlaw. That is down right dangerous advice holy. Honestly man, orals again 10 weeks? Definately not smart IMO.
holy ghost said:
1-12 testosterone enanthate 1g ew
1-10 Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - -Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - -Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - 800mg ew
1-4 abombs 100mg ed
6-10 Dianabol - methandrostenolone - 75mg ed


throw some insulin in there and youll GROW like a MOFO

if you wnat to stay dry throw in trenbolone it can only benefit you

And on top of all this you promote tons of violence on the boards. You act as if you have really killed people at times. IMO, this type of posting should get a member banned. Talking about bring 20 deep strapped the fuck out? Come on man. That is literally the last thing this community needs.
holy ghost said:
Anyone have any problems on either side of the border LMK

I can be 20 deep in 20 minutes

Strapped the fuck out

Stomping out bloods eh? While you were drunk the other weekend? Dude thats gotta be crazy on your liver. Point is, drinking under your amount of orals, stomping out bloods? Come on dude..... SERIOUSLY?!
holy ghost said:
I stomped out some big ass blood about 4 months ago when i was drunk

I was so drunk i was wearing sandles and trying to heel him in his eye sockets

I was stomping him out with my bare feet lol

While you were taking in the midst of a 22 week cycle as well?
holy ghost said:
Im on test 800mg Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - 600mg Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - 400mg Winstrol - stanozolol 75mg ed just started Winstrol - stanozolol a few days ago but im gonna hop off whole cycle soon i been on for a minute

As well as 100mg of orals? Sweeeeet man. Im sure your super healthy. And you dont keep tract as well? Coooooool bro. Reaaaaly responsible. Reaaal gangster right?
holy ghost said:
im between 75mg-100mg right now I cant keep tract

I just thought this one was funny...
holy ghost said:
When I hit the board and everyone found out I bang It was controversial

Im an OG, I dont have to put in work. Im a shot caller, which HELPS but NOT keeps me out of the police limelight

And here you are finally, posting your stats. After all this ridiculous gear use that is your stats? Stomping out bloods at that size? Come on dude. I didnt even consider using steroids when I was your size. And when you were at your biggest, you still could have gotten there naturally. You should be a monster with those dosages. IMO, the only thing that is big on you is your ego and probably your liver.

holy ghost said:
I was 215 12% in June
195 10% 8-10 weeks ago
Presently 11% 187lbs

I just dont get how you can be that size when youve been juicing for 10 years?
holy ghost said:
Gus I have been doing juice for about 10 years and am nearing the time where gains are very slow which is why i turned to peptides

Basically, you post lies IMO. You post ridiculous cycles that I think are down right dangerous. You promote violence when these boards are already under watch from LE. I just think you need to take it down. Stop posting such lame stuff.

Taking 2 grams of gear all the time and 100mg of orals is dangerous. And at your stats you should just try fixing your diet and work out regiment before you even think about taking anything.

Or just dont take anything ever again. Because if I had your results after 10 years of juicing I would have stopped about 9 years ago.
 
cryptlord has a point here people.. i know most of the c+c crowd will just blow this off but it means something over in the juicy forum, esp when you have newbies searching these forums.. this type of attitude and behaviour is not what the aas community needs.
 
xrsist said:
cryptlord has a point here people.. i know most of the c+c crowd will just blow this off but it means something over in the juicy forum, esp when you have newbies searching these forums.. this type of attitude and behaviour is not what the anabolic androgenic steroids community needs.

Exactly bro. He recommends the craziest stuff ever. I will never ever use over 50mg of orals. Ever. But thats just me.

PS someone please diffuse my Gbomb LOL
 
now we all remember ross dont we, i wanna know why holy ghost is promoting his bullshit supplement in his sig on outlaw muscle..

i believe this is your sig on outlaw holy? ..

AndroG: test/free test production, hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - restoration, igf1/human growth hormone - somatropin - increase, protein synthesis, metabolism, energy, nutrient/creatine uptake, reduces prolactin, blocks cortisol!

O-BOL: LBM, Extreme Muscle Definition, Muscle Hardness/density, vascularity, strength, endurance

$5.00 DISCOUNT CODE: HolyGhost1
__________________



http://www.outlawmuscle.com/forum/showpost.php?p=483761&postcount=4
 
Last edited:
Thats old news you fuckboy

BRR is a good friend of mine and knows this along with 99% of staff

xrsist got your panties in a bunch MATEY here I got a new thread for you guys

GO FUCK YOURSELF FAGBAGS LOL
 
i'm sorry this guy just has a hard on for the ghost and, given enough free time to look, its possible to find statements anyone of us has made that may be off the mark--amd just as many where there are different opinions

crypto is just cherry-picking a few posts out of thousands to launch ad hominen attacks on a single person--which strikes me crypto has some other motive ---

ghost does not have to answer these accusations as those that read his posts know where he is coming from---hell, is the next step a background check before you post? will you have to send in 1000 empty amps to have an opinion on test? the vast majority of ghost's posts speak for themselves
 
eddymerckx said:
i'm sorry this guy just has a hard on for the ghost and, given enough free time to look, its possible to find statements anyone of us has made that may be off the mark--amd just as many where there are different opinions

crypto is just cherry-picking a few posts out of thousands to launch ad hominen attacks on a single person--which strikes me crypto has some other motive ---

ghost does not have to answer these accusations as those that read his posts know where he is coming from---hell, is the next step a background check before you post? will you have to send in 1000 empty amps to have an opinion on test? the vast majority of ghost's posts speak for themselves

Good post.
 
Hey Xrsist Ill tell you why im promoting it

TO MAKE MONEY YOU WELTER -WEIGHT SAUCE BOY

Ill sell it to ya family haters
 
holy ghost said:
Thats old news you fuckboy

BRR is a good friend of mine and knows this along with 99% of staff

xrsist got your panties in a bunch MATEY here I got a new thread for you guys

GO FUCK YOURSELF FAGBAGS LOL

your nothing more than a wannabe gangstar with little man syndrome.

i wasnt talking about BRR i was talking about ross.
anyone who knew ross and has seen some of the rediculous posts holy ghost has made since may will know that you simply talk alot of (dangerous at times also) shit.
you see some people asking advise and next thing you see holy ghost saying.. well my next cycle (as if he were in highschool) is gona be 5000mg of this and that blah blah blah. the more gear you use make you a bigger man in your world does it mate?
 
I remember when I got flamed last winter for telling the story of when I axed Jay Cutler how many he grams he took weekly when I met him at the Arnold compound.. Quadsweep really let me have it
 
xrsist said:
your nothing more than a wannabe gangstar with little man syndrome.

i wasnt talking about BRR i was talking about ross.
anyone who knew ross and has seen some of the rediculous posts holy ghost has made since may will know that you simply talk alot of (dangerous at times also) shit.
you see some people asking advise and next thing you see holy ghost saying.. well my next cycle (as if he were in highschool) is gona be 5000mg of this and that blah blah blah. the more gear you use make you a bigger man in your world does it mate?

hey heard you aussies got tough customs

ill make sure to smuggle you in a piece of shit to eat

Ill have it shrinkrwapped and everything

ps i dont do drugs you fuckin fed
 
eddymerckx said:
i'm sorry this guy just has a hard on for the ghost and, given enough free time to look, its possible to find statements anyone of us has made that may be off the mark--amd just as many where there are different opinions

crypto is just cherry-picking a few posts out of thousands to launch ad hominen attacks on a single person--which strikes me crypto has some other motive ---

ghost does not have to answer these accusations as those that read his posts know where he is coming from---hell, is the next step a background check before you post? will you have to send in 1000 empty amps to have an opinion on test? the vast majority of ghost's posts speak for themselves

Hah dude.. your post makes no sense to me. I made valid points and your rebutle is ... "BUT HES A GOOD BRO". Good call bro! Why dont you send out some more of your "GBOMBS". Dude your soOoOoO cool. haha.
 
Cryptlord
This message is hidden because Cryptlord is on your ignore list.


NEVER GETS OLD!!! ^^^
HAVENT SEEN WHAT HE SAY IN MONTHS LOL
 
holy ghost said:
Cryptlord
This message is hidden because Cryptlord is on your ignore list.


NEVER GETS OLD!!! ^^^
HAVENT SEEN WHAT HE SAY IN MONTHS LOL
you should check this one out bro, its a detailed callout!
 
borris said:
I remember when I got flamed last winter for telling the story of when I axed Jay Cutler how many he grams he took weekly when I met him at the Arnold compound.. Quadsweep really let me have it

What was his response?
 
p.s. if u will notice ef aa s board is not a drama board......

so take your bullshit to another board or stfu
 
cryptlord has a fucking WARCRAFT AVATAR

how fucking embarassing is that

isnt that all that needs to be said??

HES FUCKING FIFTEEN!

HES A DARN PEON
 
holy ghost said:
cryptlord has a fucking WARCRAFT AVATAR

how fucking embarassing is that

isnt that all that needs to be said??

HES FUCKING FIFTEEN!

HES A DARN PEON

Haha dude your just as gay as I am for knowing what that is. Idiot.
 
holy ghost said:
hey heard you aussies got tough customs

ill make sure to smuggle you in a piece of shit to eat

Ill have it shrinkrwapped and everything

ps i dont do drugs you fuckin fed

yer real mature reply.. how old are you again?

and this is the same guy some say is a good bro.. ha.. you people that say this may wanna have another look at his rediculous comments/posts..

great attitude to have especially with all the aas incidents going on in the states at the moment.. i wonder where the media gets the "roid rage" theory from? people like you slip up and bring the big tough guy attitude with you they go fuck this will make a great story.. and it does which in turn puts massive amounts of pressure on the aas community..
 
xrsist said:
yer real mature reply.. how old are you again?

and this is the same guy some say is a good bro.. ha.. you people that say this may wanna have another look at his rediculous comments/posts..

great attitude to have especially with all the anabolic androgenic steroids incidents going on in the states at the moment.. i wonder where the media gets the "roid rage" theory from? people like you slip up and bring the big tough guy attitude with you they go fuck this will make a great story.. and it does which in turn puts massive amounts of pressure on the anabolic androgenic steroids community..

Except he aint big hahahaha JOKES ON YOU HOLY
 
holy ghost said:
dang 2 posts back to back hes really pist now lol!! dont spoil the surpprise

Haha im done posting about this. I made my points. Check yourself Holy otherwise I aint going away. Thanks.
 
Cryptlord said:
Hah dude.. your post makes no sense to me. I made valid points and your rebutle is ... "BUT HES A GOOD BRO". Good call bro! Why dont you send out some more of your "GBOMBS". Dude your soOoOoO cool. haha.

reread my post genius--i simply state that you are cherry picking a few statements out of over 5000---i need not rebut your select points b/c I question your motive and your reading skills--where in the post did i say "BUT HES A GOOD BRO"? I said the vast majority of his posts speak for themselves---if you don't like he has to say dont read it.

and i will continue to g-bomb you if you attack people who have helped me in the past with very good advice

shit both xrsist and the ghost have both helped me and offered great input so stop this shit already
 
xrsist said:
yer real mature reply.. how old are you again?

and this is the same guy some say is a good bro.. ha.. you people that say this may wanna have another look at his rediculous comments/posts..

great attitude to have especially with all the anabolic androgenic steroids incidents going on in the states at the moment.. i wonder where the media gets the "roid rage" theory from? people like you slip up and bring the big tough guy attitude with you they go fuck this will make a great story.. and it does which in turn puts massive amounts of pressure on the anabolic androgenic steroids community..

beep beep beep beep all i hear is beep beep

you know too much you fuckin cop im out of here PEACE
 
xrsist said:
yer real mature reply.. how old are you again?

and this is the same guy some say is a good bro.. ha.. you people that say this may wanna have another look at his rediculous comments/posts..

great attitude to have especially with all the anabolic androgenic steroids incidents going on in the states at the moment.. i wonder where the media gets the "roid rage" theory from? people like you slip up and bring the big tough guy attitude with you they go fuck this will make a great story.. and it does which in turn puts massive amounts of pressure on the anabolic androgenic steroids community..
so does sly gettin busted at your boarders with jintorpin im sure that helped out alot with the downfall of gensci lol

that was so bad lol
 
eddymerckx said:
reread my post genius--i simply state that you are cherry picking a few statements out of over 5000---i need not rebut your select points b/c I question your motive and your reading skills--where in the post did i say "BUT HES A GOOD BRO"? I said the vast majority of his posts speak for themselves---if you don't like he has to say dont read it.

and i will continue to g-bomb you if you attack people who have helped me in the past with very good advice

shit both xrist and the ghost have both helped me and offered great input
so stop this shit already

Same here.
 
eddymerckx said:
reread my post genius--i simply state that you are cherry picking a few statements out of over 5000---i need not rebut your select points b/c I question your motive and your reading skills--where in the post did i say "BUT HES A GOOD BRO"? I said the vast majority of his posts speak for themselves---if you don't like he has to say dont read it.

and i will continue to g-bomb you if you attack people who have helped me in the past with very good advice

shit both xrist and the ghost have both helped me and offered great input so stop this shit already

I dont see why you care so much bro. I am entitled to my opinion. Simple as that. And Holy is too, which is why I composed some of his posts to maybe sway him the other direction. I called someone out like a civil person should. You on the other hand "GBOMB" me whoaaaa good just bro. Grow up man. Im being mature about this and you simply have nothing constructive. And I do agree with you that he posts good things 90% of the time. Reread my first post. I said it right at the top.
 
holy ghost said:
beep beep beep beep all i hear is beep beep

you know too much you fuckin cop im out of here PEACE

yep real mature once again, you cant even have a civilised debate on the topic.

are you people sure you wanna be taking advise from someone like this..

your not bright by any means ghost..
 
holy always posts informative things.....the hgh thing the other day was great ...i prited the fucker out.....

also yes he does post crazy cycles.....but those r his cycles ....by no means does he ever push them on anyone or suggest to anyone to do such cycles....

anyway just my big swingin sack opinion
 
I know plenty of people who take 2 grams worth of shit. Maybe not fresh out of the womb n00bs, but 2 grams isn't a ton when you're stacking. I don't juice anymore but when I was I'd often be on 2 grams worth of stuff. So after 6-7 years of "abusing" the sauce my doctor says I'm healthier than most my age (32). My best friend is almost 40 and he's been saucing for 15 plus years. His anadrol cycles would be 10-12 weeks of 150mg a day. And they aren't anadrol only cycles. I think it depends on the person and situation but 400mg of test only per week isn't for everyone.
 
Jon79 said:
holy always posts informative things.....the human growth hormone - somatropin - thing the other day was great ...i prited the fucker out.....

also yes he does post crazy cycles.....but those r his cycles ....by no means does he ever push them on anyone or suggest to anyone to do such cycles....

anyway just my big swingin sack opinion

I totally agree bro. Im not trying to say he is completely worthless. I am just offended when he posts such ridiculous cycles... espically at his size. It gives a bad example to the new guys. I think 10 weeks of orals is crazy for anyone. But you are right. Those are his cycles. He can do what he wants. Im simply here to say what I think about em. Nothing more.
 
Jon79 said:
holy always posts informative things.....the human growth hormone - somatropin - thing the other day was great ...i prited the fucker out.....

also yes he does post crazy cycles.....but those r his cycles ....by no means does he ever push them on anyone or suggest to anyone to do such cycles....

anyway just my big swingin sack opinion

Well my nuts are shrinking....so I shall give my mediocre swinging sack opinion.

He goes out of his way to help people out. Like need2. Neither of them claim to be the world's biggest experts or PhD's or anything. But they do have informative things to say. Ghost stays on me about my diet and keeps up with my lifts and cycle and what not. So even if he posts about gangster shit or a big cycle; I think the good things he brings outweigh the perceived bad.

And lol @ public call out being the "mature way". :rolleyes:
 
PuddleMonkey said:
Cliff notes?

Holy Ghost is one of the reasons I stay away from the juice board.



I quit when he was recommending someone who just finished up a 300mg cycle of test and gained 18lbs. Ghost recommended his next cycle to be a gram of test with a high dosage of deca and dbol!

Another guy and I tried to tell him that was to high for a newb who just made great gains on a low dose cycle...and he called in his posse to stand up for him. Not to argue the dosages but call names, make fun of us older members etc.
 
PuddleMonkey said:
I know plenty of people who take 2 grams worth of shit. Maybe not fresh out of the womb n00bs, but 2 grams isn't a ton when you're stacking. I don't juice anymore but when I was I'd often be on 2 grams worth of stuff. So after 6-7 years of "abusing" the sauce my doctor says I'm healthier than most my age (32). My best friend is almost 40 and he's been saucing for 15 plus years. His anadrol cycles would be 10-12 weeks of 150mg a day. And they aren't anadrol only cycles. I think it depends on the person and situation but 400mg of test only per week isn't for everyone.
You're full of juice
























and shit lol
 
Jon79 said:
so does sly gettin busted at your boarders with jintorpin im sure that helped out alot with the downfall of gensci lol

that was so bad lol

haha the media here played with it for a while but no extra pressure was bought here by it..
 
xrsist said:
haha the media here played with it for a while but no extra pressure was bought here by it..
what a dumbass though

my god

i love jen lei ....i hope they don't put him in a federal pound me in the ass prison
 
needtogetaas said:
Your full of juice


and shit lol


And you probably saw my old pics, how else do you explain the size of my neck? I'm pretty sure it wasn't from my multi vitamin.
 
holy ghost said:
Thats old news you fuckboy

BRR is a good friend of mine and knows this along with 99% of staff

xrsist got your panties in a bunch MATEY here I got a new thread for you guys

GO FUCK YOURSELF FAGBAGS LOL


brrrw.jpg
 
Cryptlord said:
I dont see why you care so much bro. I am entitled to my opinion. Simple as that. And Holy is too, which is why I composed some of his posts to maybe sway him the other direction. I called someone out like a civil person should. You on the other hand "GBOMB" me whoaaaa good just bro. Grow up man. Im being mature about this and you simply have nothing constructive. And I do agree with you that he posts good things 90% of the time. Reread my first post. I said it right at the top.

BUT you wrote

"Helped so many bros? In my opinion he is nothing but a trash talking, bragging, anabolic androgenic steroids abusing moron." and

"Haha your nothing but a joke dude"

that's mature?

moreover I said nothing about you, i just questioned your motives and your basis for attacking someone based in a few posts out of 5000



why do i care you ask? b/c a bunch of people piled on ghost b/c some guy just decided to target him--and i will not sit by
 
PuddleMonkey said:
And you probably saw my old pics, how else do you explain the size of my neck? I'm pretty sure it wasn't from my multi vitamin.
Bro its c&c I am busting balls. Thats what you do here right?
 
eddymerckx said:
BUT you wrote

"Helped so many bros? In my opinion he is nothing but a trash talking, bragging, anabolic androgenic steroids abusing moron." and

"Haha your nothing but a joke dude"

that's mature?

moreover I said nothing about you, i just questioned your motives and your basis for attacking someone based in a few posts out of 5000



why do i care you ask? b/c a bunch of people piled on ghost b/c some guy just decided to target him--and i will not sit by

Your right. I could have done better. I guess I just flat out think hes an idiot. I really did try to make it civilized though i swear haha. Either way, life goes on. I made my point.
 
Cal_21 said:
Ghost is a good bro.

People don't HAVE to listen to his advice if they don't like it.


holyg-1.jpg
 
needtogetaas said:
No one is spared from alltheways pics.

Yes, banning me for kitty pics, and protecting wannabe's is more important than telling a stupid fuck not to keep recommending a gram of test to noobs.

brrsa.jpg
 
holyus.jpg
 
jack_schitt said:
Someone move this back to the meat head section.

I lurve my meatheats!

Holy Hell!

I wake up to this, lads can we chill and be civil at least.

You are not going to get on with everyone.
 
I have found some of his threads pretty cool....he posted one about the supp that was used on mice that i really liked.

All the fake gang banging stuff is just corny,a really bad act... he knows it, we know it and im sure he is prob a little imbarassed at it. My granny is more of an "OG" than this guy. One post he speaks like a harvard grad....then the next he gets all "gangsta".
 
eddymerckx said:
BUT you wrote

"Helped so many bros? In my opinion he is nothing but a trash talking, bragging, anabolic androgenic steroids abusing moron." and

"Haha your nothing but a joke dude"

that's mature?

moreover I said nothing about you, i just questioned your motives and your basis for attacking someone based in a few posts out of 5000



why do i care you ask? b/c a bunch of people piled on ghost b/c some guy just decided to target him--and i will not sit by

i dont think you can rant on about crypt not being mature about it.. have a look at how your mate ghost has replyed to me..
 
I like Holy Ghost, and anyone else that's enthusiastic about building muscle.
I don't think anyone should take advice from strangers at face value (mine included), but it can add a different viewpoint to consider.
When in doubt - error on the side of caution.

My viewpoint on how much gear is enough? Keep adding to your stack until the sides become untolerable, and then back it off a little and run it until you've reached your goal. My last cycle took 10 months and peaked at 4 g's a week to reach my goal. I had to reduce and add doseages several times along the way before I found a winning combination. I'm now drug free, and will stay that way for many months.
Genetics determine how much muscle you can ultimately accumulate, and it also determines how much gear you can use without getting sick. If your prone to hairloss, gyno, kidney or liver problems, high BP (off cycle), then you probably should just avoid juicing altogether IMO.
If on 4 g's a week (with no anti's) your worst sides are sweating, muscle cramps, occasional headaches, deydration, irritability, Omna skull, loss of endurance, loss of appetite (but you eat 6000 cals a day anyway) moderate backne, and a constant need to have your picture taken - then you MIGHT have a future as a muscle monster - lol.
I truly love this sick sport with all my heart.
Have a peacefull night everbody!!!
 
all the whey said:
Holy Ghost is one of the reasons I stay away from the juice board.

I quit when he was recommending someone who just finished up a 300mg cycle of test and gained 18lbs. Ghost recommended his next cycle to be a gram of test with a high dosage of Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - and Dianabol - methandrostenolone - !

Another guy and I tried to tell him that was to high for a newb who just made great gains on a low dose cycle...and he called in his posse to stand up for him. Not to argue the dosages but call names, make fun of us older members etc.

and i dare say alot of other bros that have been here for years, they simply stop posting or move onto another board, which we dont want of course. the more vets here the better and i wouldnt put ghost in the vet catagory at all.

lol at your pics all the whey
 
PuddleMonkey said:
And you probably saw my old pics, how else do you explain the size of my neck? I'm pretty sure it wasn't from my multi vitamin.


Your a funny fucker!!!! You always make me laugh.
 
Tatyana said:
I lurve my meatheats!

Holy Hell!

I wake up to this, lads can we chill and be civil at least.

You are not going to get on with everyone.


Hi TAT we miss the butt pics. :Popcorn:
 
holy ghost said:
Thats old news you fuckboy

BRR is a good friend of mine and knows this along with 99% of staff

xrsist got your panties in a bunch MATEY here I got a new thread for you guys

GO FUCK YOURSELF FAGBAGS LOL
cryptlord prefaced his thread in a very diplomatic fashion
and you follow with a post of the maturity of a toddler

I hope as I read through the remainder of the thread it doesn't deteriorate even more
 
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