hcg?

[daniels74]

currently i am doing hrt test ent 250 every 12 to 14 days 2ius hgh 5 day weak everthing going good,wanting to take hcg in small amounts i know 250 every other day or so would be ok but what about 1000 iu every 4 weaks or so instead just to prevent the boys from shrinking,also i have the 5000 iu amps, if mixed with back stat water will they stay good mixed in preloaded insulin needles in the refrigerator or in a sterol bottle in the fridge,this is a year round program,thanks for the help,stats are 5ft8 tall and 190 32 year old 7%bf.

 

[Vertigo]

First off, the Enanthate every 14 days is going to put you on a rollercoaster. The half life is about 4.5 days, so you'd be better off on a 5 day schedule. You will be falling back to baseline long before you reach your next dose.

The addition of HCG is only going to provide a pulse effect in your gonanatrophins and you'll return to a negative feedback phase. The temporary spike in LH & FSH will stimulate the Leydig cells and increase your T levels beyond what the Enanthate is providing. You will again create a rollercoaster effect in you total and free T. I suspect that the intrinsic T stimulation will also spike your E2. If HRT is your goal I'd try to mimic normal homestasis, and your proposed plan won't do it. Just my opinion...which combined with a shiny new dollar wouldn't buy a Sunday paper!

 

[daniels74]

First off, the Enanthate every 14 days is going to put you on a rollercoaster. The half life is about 4.5 days, so you'd be better off on a 5 day schedule. You will be falling back to baseline long before you reach your next dose.

The addition of HCG is only going to provide a pulse effect in your gonanatrophins and you'll return to a negative feedback phase. The temporary spike in LH & FSH will stimulate the Leydig cells and increase your T levels beyond what the Enanthate is providing. You will again create a rollercoaster effect in you total and free T. I suspect that the intrinsic T stimulation will also spike your E2. If HRT is your goal I'd try to mimic normal homestasis, and your proposed plan won't do it. Just my opinion...which combined with a shiny new dollar wouldn't buy a Sunday paper!

i agree with the test once a weak instead of every other weak ,but as far as the hcg goes what is rong with just alittle bit just so the balls dont shrink up any feed back appreciated,

 

[Vertigo]

This is just my opinion and I do not have data to prove otherwise. My point is that you'll be approaching your HRT from two different prospectives. Most hypogonadism is either primary or secondary, the Leydig cells don't respond to GnRH or the pitutary doesn't release GnRH. The addition of HCG (should)will evoke a response from the Leydig cells to produce more T (if they are intact and functional). Since you are already taking Enanthate you will functionally be overriding the feedback system. A good analogy is it's like stepping on the gas and hitting the nitrous. Granted the HCG should help increase testicle and seminal vesicle size, but eventually something else will also respond. I suspect that as your T levels spike in response to the HCG you will see a coresponding peak in prolactin, estradiol , and possibly progesterone. If this were a temporary plan maybe you could get away with it. I would be very cautious of trying it long term, you may end up with a burned out system, which is the equivalent of chemical castration. Maybe someone else here has personal experience with this. Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?

BTW you didn't give us any history of why your on HRT at 32.

 

[medical]

This is just my opinion and I do not have data to prove otherwise. My point is that you'll be approaching your HRT from two different prospectives. Most hypogonadism is either primary or secondary, the Leydig cells don't respond to GnRH or the pitutary doesn't release GnRH. The addition of HCG (should)will evoke a response from the Leydig cells to produce more T (if they are intact and functional). Since you are already taking Enanthate you will functionally be overriding the feedback system. A good analogy is it's like stepping on the gas and hitting the nitrous. Granted the HCG should help increase testicle and seminal vesicle size, but eventually something else will also respond. I suspect that as your T levels spike in response to the HCG you will see a coresponding peak in prolactin, estradiol , and possibly progesterone. If this were a temporary plan maybe you could get away with it. I would be very cautious of trying it long term, you may end up with a burned out system, which is the equivalent of chemical castration. Maybe someone else here has personal experience with this. Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?

BTW you didn't give us any history of why your on HRT at 32.

I see you point but don't say "I do not have data to prove otherwise" and then go on to say things as if they are facts! And this: "A good analogy is it's like stepping on the gas and hitting the nitrous" is as bad an analogy as I have ever read, bro!

 

[JetCityDude]

Attached is a document on prescribing HCG by Dr. John Crisler.

 

[Vertigo]

(medical) I qualified my statement as opinion, obviously you have your own. You may not care for my analogy but I stand by it. Taking supplemental Test and stimulating your production is a kindred to my heretofore mentioned analogy. The result will still be supraphysiologic pulsatile variations in blood T levels, which is not the goal of HRT.

The above doc by Crisler supports and denies some of my opinion. The orginal post referred to high dose administration of HCG every 4 (sic) weaks. I still beileve this is a bad plan. Crisler's observation would indicate small doses pre and post T administration is beneficial. I think it's safe to assume his data is anecdotal and no long term observations are implied. Irregardless, even in the opinion of a experienced clinician (Crisler)adjustments in the application of HRT are necessary and the area under the learning curve grows exponentially with empirical practice.

 

[daniels74]

(medical) I qualified my statement as opinion, obviously you have your own. You may not care for my analogy but I stand by it. Taking supplemental Test and stimulating your production is a kindred to my heretofore mentioned analogy. The result will still be supraphysiologic pulsatile variations in blood T levels, which is not the goal of HRT.

The above doc by Crisler supports and denies some of my opinion. The orginal post referred to high dose administration of HCG every 4 (sic) weaks. I still beileve this is a bad plan. Crisler's observation would indicate small doses pre and post T administration is beneficial. I think it's safe to assume his data is anecdotal and no long term observations are implied. Irregardless, even in the opinion of a experienced clinician (Crisler)adjustments in the application of HRT are necessary and the area under the learning curve grows exponentially with empirical practice.

I'm on trt therapy b/c total t level was 400 and wanted to bring it to 900 range. i agree with what you're saying about hcg pre and post t admin i say 250iu a couple days before t shot is what i've learned, just wondering if it would matter just doing it monthly as opposed to weekly.

 

[Vertigo]

I don't have the anecdotal evidence that Crisler does, so it is safe to assume his paradigm is viable. What I gather from his report is two doses of 250IU HCG ED prior to your injection are beneficial. The caveat to this application is there are other professionals that don't support Crisler's veiws. At least get some blood work done before you do anything else, then try the HCG and adjust your plan as necessary.

I'd still stay with the 5-6 day T administration schedule.

 

[5150guy]

Most hypogonadism is either primary or secondary, the Leydig cells don't respond to GnRH or the pitutary doesn't release GnRH. the addition of HCG (should)will evoke a response from the Leydig cells to produce more T (if they are intact and functional)..... I suspect that as your T levels spike in response to the HCG you will see a coresponding peak in prolactin, estradiol , and possibly progesterone.

BTW you didn't give us any history of why your on HRT at 32.

You mistated some very important points of reproductive endocrinology. First, leydig cells do not respond to GnRH. The leydig cells in the testicles respond to LH and to HCG as HCG acts as a LH analog to stimulate Testosterone production. If the pituitary does not release enough LH and FSH aside from the use of steriods and an excess of prolactin you will have secondary hypogonadism. This would be most likely caused by the HYPOTHALAMUS not releasing sufficient amounts of GnRH. This is why it is called the HPTA.

In the case of primary hypogonadism, the hypothalamus and pituitary are properly functioning, but the testicles are not able to respond to the LH and FSH in the body, and thus they can not make Testosterone and sperm respectively.

How does the use of exogenous HCG increase the production of prolactin? Please explain the endocrine functions involved in this process.

True-if a man is using exogenous T and HCG at the same time, he will
likely experience a significant increase in E2 production due to aromatase activity. However, this is nothing that a small regular dose of arimidex will not resolve.

Also your example/analogy of the engine is poor one and it is not accurate or correct. Exogenous T does not drive the testicles at all infact it will do the opposite. However, the HCG will drive the testicles to produce T providing the testicles are not allready being driven to excess. Exogenous T and Exogenous HCG are NOT both driving the testicles. In addition, the HPTA systme is not being overdriven either. If anything it is gradually being shut down.

Now on to the reality of using exogenous T and exogenous HCG producing a supraphysiologic level of T in the body-yes this can happen, and the risk dramatically increasing E2 production is real if aromatase is not held in check. However, the exogenous T levels can be adjusted to accomodate a regular testicle rehab dose of HCG or HMG for that matter and not push the total T into the supraphsyiologic levels. I know this becuase I have done it.

"The result will still be supraphysiologic pulsatile variations in blood T levels, which is not the goal of HRT."

What are you talking about? Put a man on T pellets and you can add the neccessary HCG to bring the man's total T up to the target level and it will work quite nicely. This can be done with creams, androgel, and shots as well.

Futhermore, exogenous T does not cause any sort of pulsate rythym, and neither does exogenous HCG. The only thing they will do is eventually shut down the HPTA and its pulsate rythyms.

Could the simultanious use of exogenous T and HCG result in a abnormal high total T on a given day of measurement--yes. However, the down side of TRT is that it does away with the body's natural rhythm of LH and FSH secretion.


SB

 

[Vertigo]

You mistated some very important points of reproductive endocrinology. First, leydig cells do not respond to GnRH. The leydig cells in the testicles respond to LH and to HCG as HCG acts as a LH analog to stimulate Testosterone production. If the pituitary does not release enough LH and FSH aside from the use of steriods and an excess of prolactin you will have secondary hypogonadism. This would be most likely caused by the HYPOTHALAMUS not releasing sufficient amounts of GnRH. This is why it is called the HPTA.

In the case of primary hypogonadism, the hypothalamus and pituitary are properly functioning, but the testicles are not able to respond to the LH and FSH in the body, and thus they can not make Testosterone and sperm respectively.

How does the use of exogenous HCG increase the production of prolactin? Please explain the endocrine functions involved in this process.

True-if a man is using exogenous T and HCG at the same time, he will
likely experience a significant increase in E2 production due to aromatase activity. However, this is nothing that a small regular dose of arimidex will not resolve.

Also your example/analogy of the engine is poor one and it is not accurate or correct. Exogenous T does not drive the testicles at all infact it will do the opposite. However, the HCG will drive the testicles to produce T providing the testicles are not allready being driven to excess. Exogenous T and Exogenous HCG are NOT both driving the testicles. In addition, the HPTA systme is not being overdriven either. If anything it is gradually being shut down.

Now on to the reality of using exogenous T and exogenous HCG producing a supraphysiologic level of T in the body-yes this can happen, and the risk dramatically increasing E2 production is real if aromatase is not held in check. However, the exogenous T levels can be adjusted to accomodate a regular testicle rehab dose of HCG or HMG for that matter and not push the total T into the supraphsyiologic levels. I know this becuase I have done it.

"The result will still be supraphysiologic pulsatile variations in blood T levels, which is not the goal of HRT."

What are you talking about? Put a man on T pellets and you can add the neccessary HCG to bring the man's total T up to the target level and it will work quite nicely. This can be done with creams, androgel, and shots as well.

Futhermore, exogenous T does not cause any sort of pulsate rythym, and neither does exogenous HCG. The only thing they will do is eventually shut down the HPTA and its pulsate rythyms.

Could the simultanious use of exogenous T and HCG result in a abnormal high total T on a given day of measurement--yes. However, the down side of TRT is that it does away with the body's natural rhythm of LH and FSH secretion.


SB

You are adding completely differring circumstanses to my reply. I did indeed take a shortcut with the function or GnRH and it's relation to LH and FSH. My bad! I should have known someone would try to pick apart my description.

The original poster asked about adding 1000IU of HCG to his T administration regimen, not some other scenerio. Given my recomendation of changing his enanthate injection to every 5 days, the addition of 1000IU of HCG would be unwise. The young man who asked for advise is taking 250mg of enanthate which would occur every 5 days. I suspect that this would push him close to the top of high normal blood levels or possibly above. Adding 1000IU would undoubtedly spike his LH and FSH to stimlute his Leydig cells to produce more testosterone, whatever the schedule. My reference to "pulsatile" was in relation to the injection of 1000IU of HCG not supplemental testosterone. I see no way of this scenerio not producing supraphysiologic T blood values. From the looks of Crisler's report he concurs. I also took the liberty of consulting with a collegue who also agreed.

I guess my analogy is unpopular at best. Here are some others, take a MagicMarker and circle the one you like!

1. Throwing gasoline on a fire.
2. Beating a dead horse.
3. Jerking off in a whorehouse.
4. "make up your own"

My reference to prolactin, E2 and progesterone were a mere warning of "manipulation without validation". I'll rephrase my warning. "I would be careful of overuse of HCG since increase levels of LH and FSH are known to not only stimulate Leydig cell testosterone production, this in turn can increase aromatase P450 conversion of testosterone to estradiol, followed by transcription and disruption of the CYP19 gene. These changes can combine to effect prolactin as well as progesterone during androgen down-regulation"
There is that better?

Your addition of Arimidex into the mix is not something that was ever brought up initially. The original poster never asked about AI's. Again, you create an arguement where there wasn't one.

In conculsion, I would venture a guess that your (5150) prior reliance on Eugene Shippen (which BTW your didn't spell correctly in another post) is antiquated. A few things have changed since he authored his "Testosterone Syndrome" almost 8 years ago. His preference for T pellets is considered hap-hazard by many, Dr. Crisler being one.

The wonderful thing here is we all get a turn on the soapbox. The information and ideas expressed in this forum are deversified from Moron to Millionaire. My personal predilection is to separate the wheat from the chaff, including that from many here whom would promote themsleves as experts.

 

[5150guy]

Mr Vertigo:

It is plain that you are well versed in a number of logical fallacies not the least of which are arguement ad homenin, needling, bad analogy, argument by prestigious jargon and argument from authority.

.....I did indeed take a shortcut with the function or GnRH and it's relation to LH and FSH. My bad! I should have known someone would try to pick apart my description....

You gave false information about the HTPA functions. Just admit it. This was no shortcut, and any one with a rudamentary background in reproductive endocrinology would have called you out for this one.

The original poster asked about adding 1000IU of HCG to his T administration regimen, not some other scenerio. Given my recomendation of changing his enanthate injection to every 5 days, the addition of 1000IU of HCG would be unwise. The young man who asked for advise is taking 250mg of enanthate which would occur every 5 days. I suspect that this would push him close to the top of high normal blood levels or possibly above.


...wanting to take hcg in small amounts i know 250 every other day or so would be ok but what about 1000 iu every 4 weaks or so instead just to prevent the boys from shrinking.....

The addition of HCG is only going to provide a pulse effect in your gonanatrophins and you'll return to a negative feedback phase. The temporary spike in LH & FSH will stimulate the Leydig cells and increase your T levels beyond what the Enanthate is providing.

Without Lab results there is no way of telling what the addition of 250 iu of HCG would have done to his total T levels with his use of T injections at 250 every 12-14 days. You are merely speculating without any lab data. Also, How is HCG going to produce a spike in FSH? How does FSH lock into the recpetors in the leydig cells and produce T? Please explain.



Adding 1000IU would undoubtedly spike his LH and FSH to stimlute his leydig cells to produce more testosterone, whatever the schedule.

Once again, exogenous HCG will not produce FSH. So how is this spike in FSH to be produced? HCG is an LH analog and has no effect upon the body's production of FSH. Also, FSH will NOT stimulate the leydig cells to produce more testosterone. FSH will not even lock into the LH receptors in the testicles. FSH drives sperm production. This is reproductive endocrinology 101-nothing fancy here.

Also, once the LH receptors in the testicles are full or occupied, the testicles will NOT produce more testosterone "what ever the schedule", and yes lab results will bear this out. Any one who uses HCG or recombinant human LH will find that there is a point of diminishing returns when using these drugs which progresses to the point of no return or T production.

My reference to "pulsatile" was in relation to the injection of 1000IU of HCG not supplemental testosterone. I see no way of this scenerio not producing supraphysiologic T blood values. From the looks of Crisler's report he concurs. I also took the liberty of consulting with a collegue who also agreed.



This is a bold face appeal to anonymous authority fallacy- as fellow board members have no idea who this "collegue" of yours is and whether he or she or you "Mr Vertigo" actually have any real credentials in the field of reproductive endocrinology. A collegue in what?

Exogenous HCG does not cuase anything to be pulsatile. In order to be pulsatile, there must be a series of transients. If you meant a peak in total T, just say so. The HPTA operates on a natural pulsatile cycle and rythym and this has nothing to do with a sharp rise in total T due to a large injection of HCG

I guess my analogy is unpopular at best. Here are some others, take a MagicMarker and circle the one you like!

1. Throwing gasoline on a fire.
2. Beating a dead horse.
3. Jerking off in a whorehouse.
4. "make up your own"


Your "analogy" is a poor one at best and breaks down before it is completed. In formal logic, an analogy is expressed as follows: a:b::c:d

This is read as follows: "a is to b as c is to d". What that means in plainer English is that the relationship between "a" and "b" is similar somehow to the relationship between "c" and "d."


A good analogy is it's like stepping on the gas and hitting the nitrous[assumed to be in the context of running internal combustion engine]

Please clarify your "analogy", and you qualified it as a good analogy-not us as fellow board members. I am not the only member of the board who was less than impressed with your analogy.

.....Taking supplemental Test and stimulating your production is a kindred to my heretofore mentioned analogy....

Lets take a look at the definition of the word "kindred"

Kindred may refer to:
A group of related persons.
The novel by Octavia Butler, see Kindred (novel).
The Kindred, vampires from a fantasy role-playing game, see Vampire: The Masquerade. For the related 1990s TV series, see Kindred: The Embraced.
The R&B duo, see Kindred the Family Soul.
A type of Germanic Neopaganism group; see kindred.
A race of demonic beastmen in the MMORPG Final Fantasy XI, also known as Demons.
Jonathan Kindred, the one of the pioneers of digital rights manangement and digital media distribution in the mobile telecom industry.



My reference to prolactin, E2 and progesterone were a mere warning of "manipulation without validation". I'll rephrase my warning. "I would be careful of overuse of HCG since increase levels of LH and FSH are known to not only stimulate Leydig cell testosterone production, this in turn can increase aromatase P450 conversion of testosterone to estradiol, followed by transcription and disruption of the CYP19 gene. These changes can combine to effect prolactin as well as progesterone during androgen down-regulation"
There is that better?

Lets put you to the test. How does introducing exogenous HCG in to the male body affect prolactin levels? Please at least try to use laymans terms.


...overuse of HCG since increase levels of LH and FSH are known to not only stimulate Leydig cell testosterone production.....

What else are increases in levels of LH and FSH known to do??? Please finish your sentence. You implied some other result, but you never stated what that result is.

Your addition of Arimidex into the mix is not something that was ever brought up initially. The original poster never asked about AI's. Again, you create an arguement where there wasn't one.

My mention was just sharing information that has been proven in the lab and in my own personal experince on how to use a combination of HCG and exogenous T to keep your total t high and to periodically rehablitate the testicles. This is central to the original poster's questions about the concurrent use of HCG and T ethanate. I was just sharing information with the original poster on how to better manage his TRT program. No arguement was intended, and if you took it that way, that is your problem and your assumption.

In conculsion, I would venture a guess that your (5150) prior reliance on Eugene Shippen (which BTW your didn't spell correctly in another post) is antiquated. A few things have changed since he authored his "Testosterone Syndrome" almost 8 years ago. His preference for T pellets is considered hap-hazard by many, Dr. Crisler being one.

I merely suggested Dr. Shippen's book as a indroduction and foundation for HRT in general. If you cant argue the facts and the logic--argue spelling?? The fact that Dr. Shippens book is eight years old has nothing to do with the fact that it is a good introduction to TRT programs.

As for Doctors not liking the use of pellets. Doc's are allowed to have their opinons. However there are a few facts regarding pellet based TRT that are worth considering. First, the T release rate is very consistent with pellets. This minimises the peaks and dips in the patients T levels and this in turn reduces the overall amount of aromatase activity. Second, pellets are relatively inexpensive as there are no patents to be paid for and you do not have to purchase needles and other TRT paraphenalia. Androgel and Testum are so expensive due to the patents on the gel formulation for deliverey. Third, pellets once inserted correctly are very low maintenance. Fourth, there are no transfer concerns that are common to topical modes of delivery. Fifth, many doctors today are not even trained in pellet TRT as it is belived to be old school. Doctors use the methods they are comfortable with. Old school has nothing to do with the cost effectiveness and the clinical efficacy of this method of TRT. Sixth, most doctors Rx drugs from the companies who's reps give them the most free "surf and turf", free golf, and any other number of perks. To say otherwise is extremly niave, and the role of preferred drugs and preffered treatment by the various HMO's and insurance plans have a tremendous effect upon which type or ?TRT or Rx that a Doc presribes. In addtition, a doc may use a different Rx simply for marketing themselves as being "different" from the next self-professed TRT guru. Last but by no means least, all too many times, Doctors use the methods that make them more money if they can get by with it-not the best Rx for the patient.

Having tried patches, creams, gels, hcg, Proviron, and T shots, I can tell you that pellet TRT is indeed a valid choice for TRT. No doctor should assume that he or she knows the best method of TRT for you as an individual without some experimentation.

Also, the studies on pellet based TRT have been repeated time and time again-it is a proven method that deserves consideration whether or not a given doctor likes it or in most cases is not competent in using pellet based TRT.

In the end a patient's preferred method of TRT is an individual choice. If your doctor can not and will not give you a choice, seek another doctor. Many men have tried the shots, the creams, the gels, the patches, and a good number of them have resorted to pellet based TRT. FYI women also use this method of HRT and it has proven to be very effective for them as well.

As for the 5150 inference, once again this arguement ad homenin.

The wonderful thing here is we all get a turn on the soapbox. The information and ideas expressed in this forum are deversified from Moron to Millionaire. My personal predilection is to separate the wheat from the chaff, including that from many here whom would promote themsleves as experts.



This is probably the most arrogant and yet eloquent self indicting fallacy of arguement from authority that I have come accross in quite a while. To be frank your last statement reeks of conciet and arrogance.

So what are your credentials Mr Vertigo?? Are you a member of the AACE? Are you a medical advisor to any number of the national and international Andrology organzaions?

I have worked with some world renowned reproductive endocrinologists who literally define and drive the cutting edge of reproductive endocrinology and treatment for hypogonadism. These doctors also write text books for the best medical schools in the world, and yet these doctors talk in laymans terms along with a moderate mix of medical jargon when speaking to non-medical professionals, and they do it without being arrogant or condescending. Most important is the fact that they know what they are talking about.

 

[Vertigo]

I knew you couldn't resist.........now instead of wasting your time as well as those who read this tripe, why don't just answer the original question. You have seen fit to establish your self as a medical expert of unquestionable repute, how about publishing your CV for (daniels74) to read and offer him a protocol for his HCG.

BTW, I forwarded your replies to my partner who holds a PhD in Molecular Biology as well as her MD, she spent a number of years at the NIH in Endocrine research and says you're full of shit, how's that for layman's terms!
I think we also discussed maybe you had some trouble with those anal questions on the MMPI.


I wouldn't know any better, I'm just a fry cook at a large breakfast restaurant chain.....no wait...I have an anology: Vertigo is to ham & eggs as 5150guy is to fragile ego

 

[daniels74]

Mr Vertigo:

It is plain that you are well versed in a number of logical fallacies not the least of which are arguement ad homenin, needling, bad analogy, argument by prestigious jargon and argument from authority.

.....I did indeed take a shortcut with the function or GnRH and it's relation to LH and FSH. My bad! I should have known someone would try to pick apart my description....

You gave false information about the HTPA functions. Just admit it. This was no shortcut, and any one with a rudamentary background in reproductive endocrinology would have called you out for this one.

The original poster asked about adding 1000IU of HCG to his T administration regimen, not some other scenerio. Given my recomendation of changing his enanthate injection to every 5 days, the addition of 1000IU of HCG would be unwise. The young man who asked for advise is taking 250mg of enanthate which would occur every 5 days. I suspect that this would push him close to the top of high normal blood levels or possibly above.


...wanting to take hcg in small amounts i know 250 every other day or so would be ok but what about 1000 iu every 4 weaks or so instead just to prevent the boys from shrinking.....

The addition of HCG is only going to provide a pulse effect in your gonanatrophins and you'll return to a negative feedback phase. The temporary spike in LH & FSH will stimulate the Leydig cells and increase your T levels beyond what the Enanthate is providing.

Without Lab results there is no way of telling what the addition of 250 iu of HCG would have done to his total T levels with his use of T injections at 250 every 12-14 days. You are merely speculating without any lab data. Also, How is HCG going to produce a spike in FSH? How does FSH lock into the recpetors in the leydig cells and produce T? Please explain.



Adding 1000IU would undoubtedly spike his LH and FSH to stimlute his leydig cells to produce more testosterone, whatever the schedule.

Once again, exogenous HCG will not produce FSH. So how is this spike in FSH to be produced? HCG is an LH analog and has no effect upon the body's production of FSH. Also, FSH will NOT stimulate the leydig cells to produce more testosterone. FSH will not even lock into the LH receptors in the testicles. FSH drives sperm production. This is reproductive endocrinology 101-nothing fancy here.

Also, once the LH receptors in the testicles are full or occupied, the testicles will NOT produce more testosterone "what ever the schedule", and yes lab results will bear this out. Any one who uses HCG or recombinant human LH will find that there is a point of diminishing returns when using these drugs which progresses to the point of no return or T production.

My reference to "pulsatile" was in relation to the injection of 1000IU of HCG not supplemental testosterone. I see no way of this scenerio not producing supraphysiologic T blood values. From the looks of Crisler's report he concurs. I also took the liberty of consulting with a collegue who also agreed.



This is a bold face appeal to anonymous authority fallacy- as fellow board members have no idea who this "collegue" of yours is and whether he or she or you "Mr Vertigo" actually have any real credentials in the field of reproductive endocrinology. A collegue in what?

Exogenous HCG does not cuase anything to be pulsatile. In order to be pulsatile, there must be a series of transients. If you meant a peak in total T, just say so. The HPTA operates on a natural pulsatile cycle and rythym and this has nothing to do with a sharp rise in total T due to a large injection of HCG

I guess my analogy is unpopular at best. Here are some others, take a MagicMarker and circle the one you like!

1. Throwing gasoline on a fire.
2. Beating a dead horse.
3. Jerking off in a whorehouse.
4. "make up your own"


Your "analogy" is a poor one at best and breaks down before it is completed. In formal logic, an analogy is expressed as follows: a:b::c:d

This is read as follows: "a is to b as c is to d". What that means in plainer English is that the relationship between "a" and "b" is similar somehow to the relationship between "c" and "d."


A good analogy is it's like stepping on the gas and hitting the nitrous[assumed to be in the context of running internal combustion engine]

Please clarify your "analogy", and you qualified it as a good analogy-not us as fellow board members. I am not the only member of the board who was less than impressed with your analogy.

.....Taking supplemental Test and stimulating your production is a kindred to my heretofore mentioned analogy....

Lets take a look at the definition of the word "kindred"

Kindred may refer to:
A group of related persons.
The novel by Octavia Butler, see Kindred (novel).
The Kindred, vampires from a fantasy role-playing game, see Vampire: The Masquerade. For the related 1990s TV series, see Kindred: The Embraced.
The R&B duo, see Kindred the Family Soul.
A type of Germanic Neopaganism group; see kindred.
A race of demonic beastmen in the MMORPG Final Fantasy XI, also known as Demons.
Jonathan Kindred, the one of the pioneers of digital rights manangement and digital media distribution in the mobile telecom industry.



My reference to prolactin, E2 and progesterone were a mere warning of "manipulation without validation". I'll rephrase my warning. "I would be careful of overuse of HCG since increase levels of LH and FSH are known to not only stimulate Leydig cell testosterone production, this in turn can increase aromatase P450 conversion of testosterone to estradiol, followed by transcription and disruption of the CYP19 gene. These changes can combine to effect prolactin as well as progesterone during androgen down-regulation"
There is that better?

Lets put you to the test. How does introducing exogenous HCG in to the male body affect prolactin levels? Please at least try to use laymans terms.


...overuse of HCG since increase levels of LH and FSH are known to not only stimulate Leydig cell testosterone production.....

What else are increases in levels of LH and FSH known to do??? Please finish your sentence. You implied some other result, but you never stated what that result is.

Your addition of Arimidex into the mix is not something that was ever brought up initially. The original poster never asked about AI's. Again, you create an arguement where there wasn't one.

My mention was just sharing information that has been proven in the lab and in my own personal experince on how to use a combination of HCG and exogenous T to keep your total t high and to periodically rehablitate the testicles. This is central to the original poster's questions about the concurrent use of HCG and T ethanate. I was just sharing information with the original poster on how to better manage his TRT program. No arguement was intended, and if you took it that way, that is your problem and your assumption.

In conculsion, I would venture a guess that your (5150) prior reliance on Eugene Shippen (which BTW your didn't spell correctly in another post) is antiquated. A few things have changed since he authored his "Testosterone Syndrome" almost 8 years ago. His preference for T pellets is considered hap-hazard by many, Dr. Crisler being one.

I merely suggested Dr. Shippen's book as a indroduction and foundation for HRT in general. If you cant argue the facts and the logic--argue spelling?? The fact that Dr. Shippens book is eight years old has nothing to do with the fact that it is a good introduction to TRT programs.

As for Doctors not liking the use of pellets. Doc's are allowed to have their opinons. However there are a few facts regarding pellet based TRT that are worth considering. First, the T release rate is very consistent with pellets. This minimises the peaks and dips in the patients T levels and this in turn reduces the overall amount of aromatase activity. Second, pellets are relatively inexpensive as there are no patents to be paid for and you do not have to purchase needles and other TRT paraphenalia. Androgel and Testum are so expensive due to the patents on the gel formulation for deliverey. Third, pellets once inserted correctly are very low maintenance. Fourth, there are no transfer concerns that are common to topical modes of delivery. Fifth, many doctors today are not even trained in pellet TRT as it is belived to be old school. Doctors use the methods they are comfortable with. Old school has nothing to do with the cost effectiveness and the clinical efficacy of this method of TRT. Sixth, most doctors Rx drugs from the companies who's reps give them the most free "surf and turf", free golf, and any other number of perks. To say otherwise is extremly niave, and the role of preferred drugs and preffered treatment by the various HMO's and insurance plans have a tremendous effect upon which type or ?TRT or Rx that a Doc presribes. In addtition, a doc may use a different Rx simply for marketing themselves as being "different" from the next self-professed TRT guru. Last but by no means least, all too many times, Doctors use the methods that make them more money if they can get by with it-not the best Rx for the patient.

Having tried patches, creams, gels, hcg, Proviron, and T shots, I can tell you that pellet TRT is indeed a valid choice for TRT. No doctor should assume that he or she knows the best method of TRT for you as an individual without some experimentation.

Also, the studies on pellet based TRT have been repeated time and time again-it is a proven method that deserves consideration whether or not a given doctor likes it or in most cases is not competent in using pellet based TRT.

In the end a patient's preferred method of TRT is an individual choice. If your doctor can not and will not give you a choice, seek another doctor. Many men have tried the shots, the creams, the gels, the patches, and a good number of them have resorted to pellet based TRT. FYI women also use this method of HRT and it has proven to be very effective for them as well.

As for the 5150 inference, once again this arguement ad homenin.

The wonderful thing here is we all get a turn on the soapbox. The information and ideas expressed in this forum are deversified from Moron to Millionaire. My personal predilection is to separate the wheat from the chaff, including that from many here whom would promote themsleves as experts.



This is probably the most arrogant and yet eloquent self indicting fallacy of arguement from authority that I have come accross in quite a while. To be frank your last statement reeks of conciet and arrogance.

So what are your credentials Mr Vertigo?? Are you a member of the ACCE? Are you a medical advisor to any number of the national and international Andrology organzaions?

I have worked with some world renowned reproductive endocrinologists who literally define and drive the cutting edge of reproductive endocrinology and treatment for hypogonadism. These doctors also write text books for the best medical schools in the world, and yet these doctors talk in laymans terms along with a moderate mix of medical jargon when speaking to non-medical professionals, and they do it without being arrogant or condescending. Most important is the fact that they know what they are talking about.

wow i didnt know this would stir up such a debate,well in the end it sounds to me the best way to do the program i am on is to do weakly injects of 100mgs instead of by weakly it makes sense to keep level stable, and for the hcg i will go with dr.cryslers protocol 250ius to days pryer to t shot and the day after but thanks for all the info.

 

[Vertigo]

Amen brother. At last you found your way through the mase of bullshit. My only intention was to keep you from getting in over your head and causing more harm than good.

My apologies to the rest of you who had to read this crap, 5150guy excluded.

 

[5150guy]

Mr. Vertigo:

Fill your posts with facts and medical research docuementation not logical fallacies and personal attacks. Furthermore, it is you who have dodged every one of my quesitons.

For those who wish to explore and review some of the most authoritative texts on the subject of hypogonadism, TRT, and Fertilty, I recomend the following docuements:

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGISTS
MEDICAL GUIDELINES FOR CLINICAL PRACTICE
FOR THE EVALUATION AND TREATMENT OF HYPOGONADISM
IN ADULT MALE PATIENTS—2002 UPDATE

The docuement above used to be available for free, but you may have to pay to download a pdf copy now.

Testosterone Therapy in Adult Men with Androgen Deficiency Syndromes: An
Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guideline. Revised March 10 2006.

If you desire more information on the efficacy and drawbacks of the various modes of TRT, please see the following:

The Androgen-Deficient Aging Male:
Current Treatment Options
J. Lisa Tenover, MD, PhD

If you want to read the cutting edge of research in the field of hypogonadism, infertility treatments, and HRT, I recomend the research and writings of Dr. Crowley MD of the Harvard School of Medicine Reproductive Endocrinology Dept who is regarded by many top endocrinologists as the "Dean" of Reproductive Endocrinology.

I also recomend the work of Dr. Frances Pettiloud MD who colaborated with Dr. Crowley on one of the most complete international studies on male infertility and secondary hypogonaism to ever be undertaken.

Having met both of these fine doctors and having conversed with both of them regarding the treatment of, long term effects of, and current trends in the treatment of male infertility due to hypogonadism, they are not only the best of the best when it comes to endocrinologists, but they are also very nice caring people who are pushing the envelope in the field of reproductive endocrinology and the treatment of hypogonadism.

FWIW-I would not attempt to prescribe a TRT program for the original poster of this thread. Doing so or even appearing to do so represents practicing medicine without a licience, and you are coming dangerously close to doing just that Mr. Vertigo.

I am calling you out. Either answer my questions and clearly manifest your brilliance to all of us on the board, or be exposed as a punk and a pretender.

Have your doctor friend email me offline, and let the two of us chat and have her read both of our postings. I have nothing to hide.

 

[Vertigo]

Why would any of us pretenders and punks need to read anything. We have you to answer our every question.

I don't know anything about endrocrinology......you are master of all you survey. I am humbled in your presence Oh Mighty One, please spare me....I'm but a poor wretch...and have many mouths to feed.

You got me on every point....maybe we could get you your own forum. Too bad daniels74 didn't get a damn thing from your input. I hear there's a guy over on the Steroid forum that wants to know if he can drink Winny...could you help him out?

Ya know...my ex says I'm arogant and conceited too.

Now will you shut up?