HCG throughout the entire cycle question...

[DJ_UFO]

This theory of using HCG throughout the cycle to protect HPTA from completely shutting down, makes a lot of sense. But I was wondering:

- Since HPTA shuts down automatically after detecting an overdose of Testosterone levels, we could say that this response is absolutely normal; therefore, using HCG during high amounts of test in the blood stream, will force the HPTA to ignore the signal and keep sending the order to the nuts to produce test. Could this have bad implications in the future? What is a good ed or eod dose of HCG enough to keep the HPTA "alive" during cycle?

- In conjunction with HCG is it worth to use clomid also?

 

[medrep]

I read it too and thought it was interesting.

I'm trying 500iu/wk throughout, then straight to clomid

 

[SpyWizard]

250mg hcg sat/sun and Dermacrine Sustain during pct..

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't think it's a good idea for a couple of reasons.

Overuse of HCG leads to a tolerance. Use it too much, and it won't work very well.

Even if you get the boys to start making some test, as soon as you administer test, there will be shutdown all over again, so you're essentially never correcting the problem. It may be cosmetically appealing, but that's about it.

In general, it's best to let the HCG get the boys back, and then let PCT and time take it from there. If you're on for a long time, a low dose, once a month HCG treatment for a couple of days is fine.

 

[Primordial Performance]

I don't think it's a good idea for a couple of reasons.

Overuse of HCG leads to a tolerance. Use it too much, and it won't work very well.

Even if you get the boys to start making some test, as soon as you administer test, there will be shutdown all over again, so you're essentially never correcting the problem. It may be cosmetically appealing, but that's about it.

In general, it's best to let the HCG get the boys back, and then let PCT and time take it from there. If you're on for a long time, a low dose, once a month HCG treatment for a couple of days is fine.

With all respect Nelson, this is not exactly the case.

Too much hCG will lead to tolerance, but just enough will prevent atrophy and desensitization. If you leave the testes dormant they will loose their ability to produce test, they will shrink, and they will loose there ability to respond to hCG. Using low dose hCG during the cycle will prevent this.

I advocate anywhere form 100iu ED to 500iu EW. However 200iu EOD is probably the best way to go.

Perhaps you have not read my article -
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/potratz/pct-protocols.htm

-Pp

 

[Mac173]

With all respect Nelson, this is not exactly the case.

Too much hCG will lead to tolerance, but just enough will prevent atrophy and desensitization. If you leave the testes dormant they will loose their ability to produce test, they will shrink, and they will loose there ability to respond to hCG. Using low dose hCG during the cycle will prevent this.

I advocate anywhere form 100iu ED to 500iu EW. However 200iu EOD is probably the best way to go.

Perhaps you have not ready my article -
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/potratz/pct-protocols.htm

-Pp

It just never made sense to me that a couple hundred iu's of HCG/wk would prevent atrophy from 500,1000 or however many mg's AAS a person is using.
It seems that shutdown is inevitable.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard this from many others as well.

 

[Nelson Montana]

With all respect Nelson, this is not exactly the case.

Too much hCG will lead to tolerance, but just enough will prevent atrophy and desensitization. If you leave the testes dormant they will loose their ability to produce test, they will shrink, and they will loose there ability to respond to hCG. Using low dose hCG during the cycle will prevent this.

I advocate anywhere form 100iu ED to 500iu EW. However 200iu EOD is probably the best way to go.

Perhaps you have not ready my article -
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/potratz/pct-protocols.htm

-Pp

I see your point, but I guess I would never recommend doing so much that the testes shrink up to nothing and stop producing test altogeteher. It's a case of an ounce of prevention being better than a pound of HCG.

I agree with you for the most part, but in some cases 500iu a week may not be enough to even make a difference whereas I believe 700 for weeks on end can be too much. But it's certainly debatable. And of course, not everyone responds the same.

 

[off_safety]

With all respect Nelson, this is not exactly the case.

Too much hCG will lead to tolerance, but just enough will prevent atrophy and desensitization. If you leave the testes dormant they will loose their ability to produce test, they will shrink, and they will loose there ability to respond to hCG. Using low dose hCG during the cycle will prevent this.

I advocate anywhere form 100iu ED to 500iu EW. However 200iu EOD is probably the best way to go.

Perhaps you have not ready my article -
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/potratz/pct-protocols.htm

-Pp

sorry to hijack, but Pp-for how long? 200iu eod throughout the cycle?

 

[st8grad]

It just never made sense to me that a couple hundred iu's of HCG/wk would prevent atrophy from 500,1000 or however many mg's AAS a person is using.
It seems that shutdown is inevitable.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard this from many others as well.

HCG is keeping my boys the same size. I have never used it during cycle until this one and I was suprised so far at how it is working. Into week 4 of Test E 500mg and EQ 400mg.

 

[Mac173]

HCG is keeping my boys the same size. I have never used it during cycle until this one and I was suprised so far at how it is working. Into week 4 of Test E 500mg and EQ 400mg.

What wk did you start the HCG? dosage?

 

[wzkid]

Im currently on prop/ace ED and Ive been using HCG @250iu EOD since week 2. Im about 6 weeks in now and havent seen any shrinkage at all. Im going to continue up until the end of my 12 weeker then pct with derma.

So far I am very pleased with the HCG EOD effects

 

[lil-swole]

What I am gathering is that HCG consistently makes for an easier recovery than no HCG - I really don't think it makes much of a fuck if you use it during or after cycle. To me, it's a hassle having to worry about shooting hcg 2x/week throughout cycle so I'll save it for after cycle, because that is easier and simpler to me.. but I doubt one method is actually that much superior to the other, and in my mind that will be the case until double-blind placebo controlled experiments prove otherwise.

 

[Mac173]

What I am gathering is that HCG consistently makes for an easier recovery than no HCG - I really don't think it makes much of a fuck if you use it during or after cycle. To me, it's a hassle having to worry about shooting hcg 2x/week throughout cycle so I'll save it for after cycle, because that is easier and simpler to me.. but I doubt one method is actually that much superior to the other, and in my mind that will be the case until double-blind placebo controlled experiments prove otherwise.

Agreed

 

[Primordial Performance]

What I am gathering is that HCG consistently makes for an easier recovery than no HCG - I really don't think it makes much of a fuck if you use it during or after cycle. To me, it's a hassle having to worry about shooting hcg 2x/week throughout cycle so I'll save it for after cycle, because that is easier and simpler to me.. but I doubt one method is actually that much superior to the other, and in my mind that will be the case until double-blind placebo controlled experiments prove otherwise.

The bottom line is that you wont see a “failed” PCT if you shoot hCG on cycle. This cant be said for shooting hCG after cycle, since you greatly increase your changes of failure and lack of full recovery. This is a documented fact.

It doesn’t matter if you’re using 250mg/wk of test or 2000mg/wk. Your LH/FSH will be shutdown 99.9%. hCG replaces this gonadotropin signal and keeps the testes functioning as normal. Your hypothalamus and pituitary will still be under suppression, but these endocrine organs tend to recovery more successfully than the testes.

Taking an hCG slin shot once or twice a week seems effortless to me – and certainly well worth it.

-Pp

 

[lil-swole]

The bottom line is that you wont seen a “failed” PCT if you shoot hCG on cycle. This cant be said for shooting hCG after cycle, since you greatly increase your changes of failure and lack of full recovery. This is a documented fact.

It doesn’t matter if you’re using 250mg/wk of test or 2000mg/wk. Your LH/FSH will be shutdown 99.9%. hCG replaces this gonadotropin signal and keeps the testes functioning as normal. Your hypothalamus and pituitary will still be under suppression, but these endocrine organs tend to recovery more successfully than the testes.

Taking an hCG slin shot once or twice a week seems effortless to me – and certainly well worth it.

-Pp

There have been endocrinologists who specialize in PCT post here on this board a while back who dispute exactly what you said; if it is so well documented, then I do not see why there would be so many damn opinions from professionals. The endos I am speaking of stated that you will recover 100% of the time using hcg post cycle instead of during (unless you just have a problem and will need hrt), and here you are stating that you will recover 100% of the time using during and not after. I really don't care to get into a pissing contest with you, and I really don't care about scientific studies unless you can give me one that documents the recovery of a steroid user with the sole variable being HCG administered during cycle vs. HCG administered after cycle (and a non-biased, placebo controlled double-blind at that), and I am relatively certain no such studies exist. You say apples, others say oranges, I say they're both fruit and taste good to me, and I personally don't give a fuck which one has more vitamin C.

 

[njmuscleguy]

I haven't run HCG during cycle yet...only at the end of a cycle and during PCT (at the end of a cycle being the best way for me so far). I don't typically shrink much during cycle, so that's not an issue for me... I run HCG for better recovery.

I can't attest to the benefit of running HCG during a cycle, but one thing I know is that the lowest dosage should be run. No more than 250-500iu. Not only has that been more effective for me than running some rediculous dosage of 1000-1500iu, but I also read on some PubMed article that a very low dosage was very effective in increasing test levels in men.

I don't know that even at low dosages HCG should be run ED or EOD. I'm going to try once or twice a week and see how that goes. My guess is that it will be plenty.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Primordial Performance]

There have been endocrinologists who specialize in PCT post here on this board a while back who dispute exactly what you said; if it is so well documented, then I do not see why there would be so many damn opinions from professionals. The endos I am speaking of stated that you will recover 100% of the time using hcg post cycle instead of during (unless you just have a problem and will need hrt), and here you are stating that you will recover 100% of the time using during and not after. I really don't care to get into a pissing contest with you, and I really don't care about scientific studies unless you can give me one that documents the recovery of a steroid user with the sole variable being HCG administered during cycle vs. HCG administered after cycle (and a non-biased, placebo controlled double-blind at that), and I am relatively certain no such studies exist. You say apples, others say oranges, I say they're both fruit and taste good to me, and I personally don't give a fuck which one has more vitamin C.

Many endos do administer hCG concurrently with TRT incase you are not familiar, and they do it to preserve testicular function and size just as I outlined in my article.

Im not aware of any endo that claims 100% success with hCG. In fact Ive been in communication with many endos whom I offer advice on alternatives & supplements to hCG treatment. Ive also been a consultant to patients who got tired of seeing lack of success with the text-book treatments. IMO, there are few well-rounded endocrinologists who take a modern and progressive approach to hormonal restoration.

I see plenty of steroid users complain about lack of full recovery from "tried and true PCT"… and its those that think they can run 16 weeker’s without running hCG during the cycle.

Im not aware of any single study that compares two groups of steroid users following different hCG protocols -- Nor do I ever see this study being done for the sake of steroid users.

-Pp

 

[lil-swole]

16 weeks = you need HCG during cycle, whether just mid-term or every week throughout, whatever, but you need to use a well-known protocol that works; I agree that waiting until cycle is over to administer HCG when the cycle is over 12 weeks in duration is a mistake.

 

[Excidium28]

How long is your cycle?

If its less than 20 weeks I wouldn’t worry about HCG until after cycle, all your doing is staying fertile, instead of using test as a male birth control.

With HCG your just bypassing your pituitary gland, its still the pituitary gland that needs to send the signal to your testicles.

 

[Mac173]

My last cycle was 16 wks and I waited until post cycle to administer HCG and I recovered fine.
My lifts actually continued to increase until about 6wks out.
Libido and energy were as good as ever.
This is a case of differant strokes for differant folks.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Yep, bypassing the pituitary is right. – and the testes hardly know the difference between LH and hCG.

Letting your testes taking a 20 week break is a huge mistake. You will no doubtingly permanently limit your testes ability to produce testosterone, no mater how much hCG you choose to run after the cycle. Its irresponsible not to run hCG during cycle, and Im starting to wonder why guys would advice against it.

-Pp

 

[Primordial Performance]

My last cycle was 16 wks and I waited until post cycle to administer HCG and I recovered fine.
My lifts actually continued to increase until about 6wks out.
Libido and energy were as good as ever.
This is a case of differant strokes for differant folks.

You ever had your T levels tested Mac? As far as pre-steroid use and post steroid use?

-Pp

 

[Mac173]

You ever had your T levels tested Mac? As far as pre-steroid use and post steroid use?

-Pp

I can't say that I have.
I think if it were extremely low, there would be at least and inkling of symptoms though.
I do plan on it after next cycle. It's past due.

 

[Excidium28]

I had my test levels tested after a 22 week cycle and a few weeks after the last shot my test were at 140 I did a post cycle with 3 weeks of HCG, 6 weeks of Clomid and Nolva and after post cycle my test were at 400, I stayed off cycle for 1 1/2 years after that and got my test levels tested again before starting my current cycle and my test levels were at 500.

I would say if your running a cycle longer than 16 weeks, you could run HCG for 10 days every 8 weeks. But I wouldnt run it through out the whole cycle, I'd rather use the AS as a male birth control.

 

[enacer420nj]

Im starting to get a bit confused....sounds like mixed opinions... Here is my cycle
1-20 EQ600
5-20 TestE250
17-20 Winny 50mg ED
1-30 AIFM
PCT I have nolv/clomid and for the first time HCG =)

Question #1
When should I administer HCG? Standard PCT im reading is 1000iu E3D for 3 weeks along with nolv/clomid....

Question #2
Will the Nolvadex combat and gyno issues from the HCG...I am estro sensative

Question #3
Can clomid cause gyno?

 

[Excidium28]

If I were you, I would just do the standard PCT after your done with ur cycle (start 3 weeks after ur last injection)

But if you plan on running another cycle shortly after this one, than I would run some HCG for 10 days after 10 weeks into your cycle and than do the standard PCT after your done.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Im starting to get a bit confused....sounds like mixed opinions... Here is my cycle
1-20 EQ600
5-20 TestE250
17-20 Winny 50mg ED
1-30 AIFM
PCT I have nolv/clomid and for the first time HCG =)

Question #1
When should I administer HCG? Standard PCT im reading is 1000iu E3D for 3 weeks along with nolv/clomid....

Question #2
Will the Nolvadex combat and gyno issues from the HCG...I am estro sensative

Question #3
Can clomid cause gyno?

#1 - on cycle at 200iu EOD or you can do 500iu once a week.

#2 - Yes, but I dont like nolva or clomid since they are carcinogens. I would use aromasin, arimidex or letro instead.

#3 - Highly unlikely.

-Pp

 

[Primordial Performance]

If I were you, I would just do the standard PCT after your done with ur cycle (start 3 weeks after ur last injection)

But if you plan on running another cycle shortly after this one, than I would run some HCG for 10 days after 10 weeks into your cycle and than do the standard PCT after your done.

excidium,

You should speak for yourself bro. Had you ran hCG during your cycle you probably would have ended up with higher than 400-500 ng/dl natural test level after the cycle. Besides, not everyone goes on AAS for contraception, although it can be a nice plus.

-Pp

 

[lil-swole]

Question #1
When should I administer HCG? Standard PCT im reading is 1000iu E3D for 3 weeks along with nolv/clomid....

Standard PCT is fine, although start immediately after your last shot of juice (don't wait three weeks to start). Most people find the 10-day 500iu protocol sufficient as well. As you can see, opinions vary on this, so if I were you I would just read over this thread a couple of times and pick one, because your not going to get it limited down any further. There's nothing really wrong with using HCG on cycle, but neither is waiting until after cycle to use it (assuming you are doing a moderate length cycle). Where you make the mistake is using too much or not using it at all when you should.

 

[redsamurai]

.

Taking an hCG slin shot once or twice a week seems effortless to me – and certainly well worth it.

-Pp

totally agree, I mean.....most of us are already shooting GH along with our gear.....so what's an extra slin shot?

 

[DJ_UFO]

Hey Pp, will use of clomid (50mg ed) during cycle help preserve the amount of cum? (lol sorry for the non-professional term)

 

[enacer420nj]

#1 - on cycle at 200iu EOD or you can do 500iu once a week.

#2 - Yes, but I dont like nolva or clomid since they are carcinogens. I would use aromasin, arimidex or letro instead.

#3 - Highly unlikely.

-Pp

So nolv/clomid is bad for you? You recoment aromasin or arimidex but those are AI they dont stimulate LH correct? Also does HCG need to be refrigerated after reconstitution? Can I let the pin get room temp before administering

 

[Primordial Performance]

Hey Pp, will use of clomid (50mg ed) during cycle help preserve the amount of cum? (lol sorry for the non-professional term)

Ehh... not really.

hCG would be way better for this sort of thing, and HMG/FSh would be even better.

-Pp

 

[Primordial Performance]

So nolv/clomid is bad for you? You recoment aromasin or arimidex but those are AI they dont stimulate LH correct? Also does HCG need to be refrigerated after reconstitution? Can I let the pin get room temp before administering

Yes nolva and clomid are poisons. Read the article link I posted earlier.

Aromasin or arimidex will stimulate LH just as well as nolva or clomid IMO... but it doesn’t matter either way since you shouldn’t be running them for PCT if you ran them during the cycle. A little estrogen is a good thing.

hCG should be stored in the fridge, but letting it get to room temp before shooting is no problem.

-Pp

 

[DJ_UFO]

Ehh... not really.

hCG would be way better for this sort of thing, and HMG/FSh would be even better.

-Pp

HMG at what dose? in conjunction with HCG?

 

[Primordial Performance]

HMG at what dose? in conjunction with HCG?

Yes, you can use them together. There is a synergy there.

50iu EOD should be fine for the hMG

-Pp

 

[enacer420nj]

Yep, bypassing the pituitary is right. – and the testes hardly know the difference between LH and hCG.

Letting your testes taking a 20 week break is a huge mistake. You will no doubtingly permanently limit your testes ability to produce testosterone, no mater how much hCG you choose to run after the cycle. Its irresponsible not to run hCG during cycle, and Im starting to wonder why guys would advice against it.

-Pp

Ok bro heres my final question....I have 10,000iu of HCG for my PCT and I still have like 7 weeks of my cycle left...what should I do

 

[Excidium28]

excidium,

You should speak for yourself bro. Had you ran hCG during your cycle you probably would have ended up with higher than 400-500 ng/dl natural test level after the cycle. Besides, not everyone goes on AAS for contraception, although it can be a nice plus.

-Pp

Just giving him my .02 from my experience. And from speaking to a few doctors 500 is average for test.

Now your recommending that he run HCG through out his whole cycle no matter how long at 500IU EW?

 

[needtogetaas]

HCG is keeping my boys the same size. I have never used it during cycle until this one and I was suprised so far at how it is working. Into week 4 of Test E 500mg and EQ 400mg.

and thats what matters bro...its working for you,it is going to work for others and imo its the best thing you can do....

its really nothing to fight about ether you try it love it and never go back to the old way or you stay stuck the way you are.pretty simple.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Ok bro heres my final question....I have 10,000iu of HCG for my PCT and I still have like 7 weeks of my cycle left...what should I do

You should be fine with just shooting 500iu every week for the next 6 weeks (starting now), then dropping the hCG.

-Pp

 

[Primordial Performance]

Just giving him my .02 from my experience. And from speaking to a few doctors 500 is average for test.

Now your recommending that he run HCG through out his whole cycle no matter how long at 500IU EW?

Yes, 500iu throughout the whole cycle... but I do think 200-250iu EOD is probably the best way to go if a guy doesnt mind shooting 3x a week.

-Pp

 

[enacer420nj]

Yep, bypassing the pituitary is right. – and the testes hardly know the difference between LH and hCG.

Letting your testes taking a 20 week break is a huge mistake. You will no doubtingly permanently limit your testes ability to produce testosterone, no mater how much hCG you choose to run after the cycle. Its irresponsible not to run hCG during cycle, and Im starting to wonder why guys would advice against it.

-Pp

My balls are still plumpy =) and I have 10,000iu of HCG and 7 weeks of cycling left...what do you suggest?

 

[chilledandy]

So PP what would you recommend for a decent PCT after a 15 week cycle of EQ 400mg week and Test E 250mg week, with anavar finishing 3 weeks after the the last Test E injection.
I have Clomid, Nolvadex, HCG (5 x 1500Iu amps), and Letrozole.

 

[needtogetaas]

So PP what would you recommend for a decent PCT after a 15 week cycle of EQ 400mg week and Test E 250mg week, with anavar finishing 3 weeks after the the last Test E injection.
I have Clomid, Nolvadex, HCG (5 x 1500Iu amps), and Letrozole.

should have don hcg during cycle but still use the derma sustain as pct 5 pumps ed 4 weeks.

 

[chilledandy]

Ive not started the cycle yet. sorry for the confusion.

 

[needtogetaas]

Ive not started the cycle yet. sorry for the confusion.

good shit bro do your hcg during then and dermacrin after.

 

[Primordial Performance]

So PP what would you recommend for a decent PCT after a 15 week cycle of EQ 400mg week and Test E 250mg week, with anavar finishing 3 weeks after the the last Test E injection.
I have Clomid, Nolvadex, HCG (5 x 1500Iu amps), and Letrozole.

Yep, 200iu EOD thoughout the entire cycle.

If I were you, Id cut that cycle length in half and double your dosages and go .25 letro E3D.

-Pp