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Guys I really need help with some engine codes on a '98 Sunfire.

RottenWillow

Plat Hero
Platinum
Does anyone really know their emission system stuff well? My dad is letting me have an old Sunfire to use as a second car or sell as I choose but I've got to figure out what's up with the emissions before I can even get a tag for the bastard. It's showing two codes right now, one for the EGR system and one for the downstream O2 sensor (after the catalytic converter). I replaced the O2 sensor, cleared the codes with a a EZ link engine analyzer but both codes reappeared.

Anybody know a lot about this type of thing?

Thanks in advance, Annabelle.
 
OK. you're dealing with a post-96 car that's loaded with the OBD2 emmissions system. fun fun shit there. i HATE it.

anya, you are somewhat in luck here, because i just had a conversation with a friend on OBD2 equipped cars not too long ago. he also just took his emmissions tests again and passed with flying colors. when there's a question in his "region," techs in other shops are told to call him up. he hates it, but that's what happens when you're good.

you're going to have to run the tests specified in a repair manual on the EGR system. you could have a faulty EGR valve, solenoid, no voltage running to it, bad vaccuum lines....there's a number of things that could be causing the problem. you'll need a vacuum gauge to do this as well. appears that's the only tool you'll need besides a multimeter or a regular 12V test light. indepth testing of the EGR control system requires the proper scan tools (above and beyond what you can do in your home garage). you might have to bite it on this one and let the shop deal with it. i'd suggest checking all the vaccuum lines and you can probably try a few of the vaccuum tests w/out a gauge...just pull the proper line and feel for suction/blow. won't be 100% accurate, but always worth a shot.

the o2 sensor, on the other hand, if it was installed properly the code should be gone. HOWEVER, the OBD2 systems are set up kinda funky. on older cars, you can clear the codes, fire the car up, drive it a little, and check your codes again. problem solved.

on OBD2 equipped cars, there is a NASTY procedure involved to fully test out all the systems once you've cleared the codes. some of this involves getting the car up to 55mph and holding it at partial throttle for a few minutes...some wild stuff. when you clear the codes on an OBD2 equipped car, you've pretty much got to put it through all forms of regular driving to get the system back up to snuff again. if you have an trouble code popping up and you simply clear the system and take the car in for an emmissions test, you're SOL because as soon as they hook the computer up to it, they're gonna know that it was recently cleared. all of this was mandated by the government in order to make sure people weren't cheating the emmissions system. isn't it wonderful?

the O2 sensor, however, should've been a quick fix. i replaced an O2 sensor on our 96 civic (after it got bent in a little doozie i had...i'll have to post pics of that some day), cleared the codes, and was fine.

did you connect all the wires of the O2 sensor correctly? if i remember correctly, the downstream O2 sensor doesn't do much to begin with, but i could be thinking of regular OBD equipped cars, not OBD2 equipped ones. since the O2 sensor should've been a quick fix but apparently wasn't, you need to check your wiring. if your wiring is correct, you need to trace the wires through the car to check for any damaged wires. if your wiring is correct (and it's properly insulated - not shorting itself out) and the wiring leading to it is ok, you've got a faulty O2 sensor. most come with a limited warranty. pull it back out, take it back, tell them it's bad.

where do you live and what type of emmissions tests are we talking about here? if you would happen to live in SE PA, i can tell you what shop to go to and who to have work on your car (specifically request the tech).

anything else i can help with? i'm flying by memory here on quite a lot of it (and also whipped out my 96 civic book for some references). i can reference out of this book for most things on emmissions because when the government mandated the OBD2 systems, it's all the same across the board. honda used to call an O2 sensor (just an example) one thing, chevy called it another, ford called it something different....it was near impossible to work on one car to the next and have a clue as to what was what because things were named so differently. the standardizing of parts and systems has, in effect, made a technician's life a bit easier considering the complexity of the system.

now if my final on monday was diagnosing cars and not on experimental methods...i'd get an A :)
 
Wow thanks for your thoughtful reply crak.


Ok since I posted that I now get a second EGR error code, 404. The EZ link scanner calls it "circuit range/performance' and my papi's Chilton manual calls the same code "open pintle valve". The original EGR error code, which is still there too, number 405, "sensor A input low"

About the O2 sensor, this is the downstream sensor behind the catalytic converter. My papi was actually the one that threaded it in underneath the car and I plugged it into the little connector up by the oil filter.......it has a really long cord that tucks into this thing under the car. I have to do the work as much as possible myself though since that's the deal. If I can get it fixed I can sell it and keep the money. He just wants it out of our driveway and dude I need the money!

Our scanner reads the downstream sensor in real time while you're driving and it showed a very rich mixture, like .8 to .9 voltage but the 02 sensor under the hood fluctuated normally. Does that tell you anything? Me and my bf didnt really know what that meant.

The EGR is an electronic one, ECM controlled with no vacuum lines. The solenoid and the valve is all in one little unit. Do you think the solenoid part could be bad? Our EZ link can give a whole assload of commands to the EGR valve that supposedly can definitively diagnose any problems with it but the catch is you gotta go online and pay the manufacturers another $49.99 and they'll give you a code you punch in to unlock those features. Do you think I should or does it sound like it's probably the EGR solenoid/valve combo unit to you? I mean does the fact that there are two EGR error codes mean that most likely is the problem. My big fear is it could be the fricking ECM!

No sorry we're no where near you. We live in metro Atlanta.
 
Anya - bottom line is, you're gonna have to run some tests on it. this is the ONLY way you're going to be sure. it could be a bad solenoid or the EGR could be toast. the beauty of the OBD2 systems is that you can get specific information about the system to narrow down your troubles. you've got the Chilton manual....you're going to be OK :)

you've gotten about as specific as you need considering that you're saying on your car it's all one unit (and probably replaces as one unit).

i'm going to recommend you do everything you can that the manual says. seeing as how you're saying there's no vacuum lines, my book is now useless as a reference.

voltage checks are simple (if required to do them). a 12V test light is $4. has an alligator clip and is a probe. hook to ground, probe positive wires. if it lights up, you've got juice.

don't worry about the ECM being toast. if it was, you'd get a code for it. even then, codes saying "check ECM" or whatever can be meaningless....just an encouragement for you to get the car checked out. kind of like when the doctor says "i don't know what it is...could be this or that or CANCER....let's run some tests to be sure." follow me? you'd get the tests done.

i wouldn't bother downloading any more codes from the net if you've got to pay $50 for them. if you've got the book and you've narrowed it down this far, the tests in the book should guide you from here. other than that, a shop can further diagnose if you run some at home tests and don't eliminate the problem.

the O2 sensor....that's interesting. not sure what to say about that. if upstream it's good and downstream it's bad, then what's in between? manifold, pipes, cat, sensor. seeing as how the primary is functioning properly and the secondary isn't, i'd still point towards a faulty O2 sensor unless the exhaust has been altered (including from the cat back). the primary would pick up problems first, the secondary is going to tell you if your exhaust from the primary back is ok. i'm guessing here, but i believe it's an educated guess based on knowledge i've picked up over the years.

other than that, i'm kinda stumped. without the proper manual and without actually being there....it's kind of like flying blindly by remote control. VERY hard to do. it CAN be done, but damn, it's difficult.

i'm trying though...definetly trying.

oh, one last thing...do NOT go out and buy any parts until you've ran some tests. you don't want to be a "parts replacer." you can end up spending more money in the long run. granted, faulty O2 sensory means faulty O2 sensor, but with this EGR problem, you coudl be dealing with a lack of voltage going to it...not worth replacing the part to find out later that that was your culprit.

hope i've been of some assistance. let me know what happens from here.
 
any progress? what's goin on?

oh, btw, i forgot to tell you that i charge $35/hr for tech support. i've put about an hour into this job so far.

i accept paypal and money orders only. add 3% if using a credit card on paypal to cover fees. thank you.

:lmao:
 
crak600 said:
any progress? what's goin on?

Well the 02 sensor was just that the fuse for it was missing. Since it has a heater ciruit it needed a fuse, which had been removed at some point prior to me getting the car. I'm still getting the two EGR codes though, "circuit range/performance" and "sensor A low input". What I've been able to figure from reading everything I can find on the Internet is the culprit in such cases is usually the EGR but could possibly be the ECM. I emailed some salvage places online who were advertising parts for a 98 Sunfire and asked them for an EGR. I've found them for V6 Sunfires for $40 and that would be totally doable if I can get that price cause even I can install one. So HOPEFULLY that'll be all I need!

Thanks for your help. :D (and oh yeah the money order is in the mail)
 
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shit, i completely forgot about the heater circuit and fuse. well, even the best forget :)

are there any tests in your book that you can run on your own at home there? quick voltage checks or something? it'd suck to spend $40 on a part and it not be the problem.

PM me for address so i can recieve my $$ ;)
 
crak600 said:
shit, i completely forgot about the heater circuit and fuse. well, even the best forget :)

are there any tests in your book that you can run on your own at home there? quick voltage checks or something? it'd suck to spend $40 on a part and it not be the problem.

PM me for address so i can recieve my $$ ;)

Yeah there are some voltage tests but not much. I verified that the EGR harness is getting the correct 5v and 12v on two wires as it should and jumpered the harness to the pins on the EGR solenoid to verify good connectivity and all was cool. BUT the voltage is supposed to flucuate to control the precise positioning of the valve (it's not just a wide open or a totally closed thing) and you cant test that. so that's why I still cant tell for sure if it is the EGR or the ECM.

Dude I need props for my female mechanical aptitude. Belle got skillZ!!! LOL

And I'll be PMing you immediately. (and you'll only put the tip in and you wont *** in my mouth) ;)
 
you got skills! sounds as if you've narrowed it down as far as you can without taking it to a shop. $40 part or $75/hr labor at the shop......i think i'd take my chances on the part.

good job. lemme know how it turns out when you're done.


i need to help out more often around here ;)
anya said:
And I'll be PMing you immediately. (and you'll only put the tip in and you wont *** in my mouth) ;)
 
crak600 said:
you got skills! sounds as if you've narrowed it down as far as you can without taking it to a shop. $40 part or $75/hr labor at the shop......i think i'd take my chances on the part.

good job. lemme know how it turns out when you're done.

I will and thanks again. :D
 
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