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first time doing steroids taking anavar only please help

pao11

New member
im 21 5'7 150 pounds

im taking 40mg of anavar for 8 weeks
20g as i wake up 430 am (6am is workout time) and 20g 9 hours after which is around 3pm

i was wondering if this is a good enough cycle to see gains from var and also what is a PCT after my 8 week cycle ive heard alot of people saying no PCT is needed but i want to be on the safe side thanks and God Bless!
 
you weigh 150 pounds.. that seems a little light, how long have you been training?
what is your goal?
what is your sport?
what is your diet? (details, please..)

40mg is sufficient for some gains.. but I don't think it's the wisest choice for a beginner..
 
im a runner and i just want to be a bit faster and i heard anvar could help...
i eat canned tuna rice and steak
and why is 40mg/day bad for a begginer any advice?
thanks
 
I think you will see some nice gains. Var is great for me. As far as pct goes, you will hear some differing opinions, as it may affect different people in different ways. I have done it with and without pct & honestly did not notice a difference. If you want to be safe and sure, run a pct (nolva, with a booster like tongkat ali, or unleashed)
 
I'm not well versed in training for speed but anavar should give you a boost in the gym. Are you looking to stay the same weight (recomp) or add a few pounds?

As for PCT - For this light of a cycle I'd go with Primordial Performance Testosterone Recovery Stack. You could have nolva on hand or run a low dose (like 10mg ED). Unleashed would be a good add.
 
Var WILL shut you down. Nolva will suffice, but you WILL need it, if not I would think that within a couple of months you will be back at the same weight as you started at, or worse, you'll be lighter. Even though it is a light dose thats 280mgs or orals a week. Better to be safe than sorry mate.
 
Thats a good dosage to introduce you to the world of gear, however PCT will be needed. You will experience an increase in strength & endurance as far as speed that determines upon the amount of fast & slow twitch fibers.


Good luck.

RADAR
 
Var WILL shut you down. Nolva will suffice, but you WILL need it, if not I would think that within a couple of months you will be back at the same weight as you started at, or worse, you'll be lighter. Even though it is a light dose thats 280mgs or orals a week. Better to be safe than sorry mate.

Meh. Nolva works but there are better PCTs these days. I say incorporate it but don't rely on it entirely and don't over use it. The products we have now days makes for a much softer landing...
 
Oh a runner.. that works.. it will help for sure.. especially if you're a sprinter..

You may want to head over to the diet forum.. that was not a good enough layout..

as for pct use nolvadex as others stated.

just my opinions..
 
I wouldn't recommend based on your age and weight. You've got plenty of the endogenous stuff roaming around in your body, shame to suppress that with a light anavar cycle. Yeah, you'll probably see some gains as most do their first time, but I bet with hard training and a good diet you could see similar gains without trashing your cholesterol and tasking your liver.

That said, IF YOU DO, don't forget the liver AND the cholesterol sups like Red Yeast Rice with Coenzyme Q10, Flax Seed Oil, Garlic, Niacin, etc. Anavar trashes your cholesterol - shame to plaque up your arteries at such a young age.

Anavar will not "shut you down", but it will supress your natural T, so you need a PCT to be safe. Sustain Alpha for 4 weeks would do you fine, but Nolva does work as well (probably 20mg first week, 10mg next couple weeks).
 
lol I always LOVE when all of the older guys talk shit to young guys wanting to use steroids...

Like the young guys have a gram of test a week or something..

Come on, men in their peak have 10mgs of test a day- at Best...

you guys between 25 and ...hell.. 90 use at least 20-25mg per day after the ester is removed.. twice the highest natural level..

give the young guys a break..
 
lol I always LOVE when all of the older guys talk shit to young guys wanting to use steroids...

Like the young guys have a gram of test a week or something..

Come on, men in their peak have 10mgs of test a day- at Best...

you guys between 25 and ...hell.. 90 use at least 20-25mg per day after the ester is removed.. twice the highest natural level..

give the young guys a break..

I agree... And i'm not a "young guy" btw. I think if you've done your previous years of training and do your fair share of research then i think starting at the age of 20 is fine. Back then i could eat eat eat and not grow. Then about age 26 i started, and grew like crazy.
 
Reducing your T does mean you are shut down, a small shut down could mean that he will not keep his gains and they will dwindle away over time, so better to be safe than sorry, saying no may make people think that they do not need pct, they do, even with 40mgs per day, just my 2cents.
 
okay thanks i think im gonna take 20g as i wake up and 20 after 10hours.... so how do i incorporate the PCT? I Have no idea how please help me thanks
 
Come on guys, you can't suggest that it's ok for a 20 year old to run a cycle, even if it is Anavar. Your body is naturally producing enough testosterone at that age that you don't need a boost. Unless of course you've had blood work done and your doctor puts you on something. And at the OP's size, seriously? How about adjusting your diet, eating like a horse, and busting your ass in the gym? You'd have no trouble packing on some weight. Let's try the balls out natural way before we start using products that could potentially mess up your natural test production for the rest of your life. I'm not saying it will, just that it could. And Nolva? You guys should know better than that. If you don't, I'd suggest reading the article I've posted below. And if you're interested in the full article, with references, you can check it out here: Articles about nutrition, supplements, drugs, health, and training




Clomid & Nolvadex - The Dark Side

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.​



Preface - Over the past 15 years, the use of Clomid and Nolvadex, as Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs) has become a staple in the HRT and bodybuilding communities.

The popularity of these drugs stems from the popular advice to use these drugs for everything from testosterone recovery, bloat reduction, to gyno prevention. In many communities SERMs have become akin to vitamins -- vitamins that can do no wrong and provide seemingly endless benefits.

This article is not intended to examine the proper use or possible applications of Clomid or Nolvadex. Instead, we will be exploring the historical development of these drugs, the short-term side-effects and long-term consequences.

As I will illustrate, these drugs are true danger to men’s health.


Synthetic estrogens, the beginning -

It was the 1930’s and there was a new age of hormone-dependant pathologies on the rise. Scientists were eager to determine the structural requirements of estrogen for new drug design.

In 1937 Sir Charles Dodd of the Middlesex Hospital of London found estrogenic activity in a molecule with two benzene rings linked together via a short carbon chain (eg, diphenylethane). (1) Soon thereafter, a synthetic, non-steroidal estrogen known as diethylstilboestrol (DES) was created from this basic molecular backbone. (1) By 1941, DES was an FDA approved drug, and by the 1950’s, DES gained widespread popularity as the drug of choice for menopausal symptoms, cancer treatment, and prevention of miscarriages. (2)

DES sparked the interest of ambitious drug manufactures that saw this synthetic molecule as a potential “molecular backbone” which could be tailored for estrogenic activity, and patented for maximum profit.

Within months, a research group from the University of Edinburgh found that the addition of a benzene ring to the original diphenylethane structure created an somewhat of an anti-estrogen known as triphenylethylene. (1) Although it had very weak estrogenic activity, it was called an anti-estrogen because it competed with the body’s more powerful estradiol for the ER receptors.

Although the complex estrogenic action of triphenylethylene was not fully understood, it was considered the perfect molecular platform for future drug development because of its high oral bioavailability and extended half-life due to its lipophilicity (fat solubility). As it was later discovered, the estrogenic action could be manipulated with structural modifications for more specific agonist/antagonist actions. (3) Despite the lack of understanding for its full physiological effects, triphenylethylene would become the molecular backbone for generations of SERM’s to come.

By the early 1940’s, the world’s largest chemical manufacturers, including Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI), got word of the triphenylethylene development, and seized the opportunity to expand this new class of compounds. By the 1950’s, the synthesis of new triphenylethylene based molecules had began picking up momentum, as the first FDA approved SERM’s started appearing on the market.

One of the first was Triparanol, which was sold as a cholesterol lowering SERM, until it was eventually pulled from the market in the 1950’s for causing cataracts in patients. (7) Later, Ethamoxytriphetol (MER-25) was discovered and found to be a reliable contraceptive and anti-cancer agent in rats, but failed in humans due to the drug’s severe toxicity and stimulation of “acute psychotic episodes”. (6)

Despite these early warning signs, development continued.

Among one of the newer SERM’s to appear in the late 1950’s, was a mixture of two stereoisomers -- zuclomiphene and enclomiphene -- both having unique estrogenic and anti-estrogen actions. This mixture was collectively called clomiphene, and later marketed as Clomid.

Then, in 1962, ICI synthesized ICI-46474, another mixture of a trans and cis isomers with mixed estrogenic and anti-estrogenic activity. (7) Ultimately, the trans isomer was found to be the predominate anti-estrogen, which was isolated and eventually named tamoxifen, and later marketed as Nolvadex.

Originally, ICI pushed these new SERM’s to market as a “morning after” contraceptives, which were eventually approved by the FDA. (4) Yet again, the profit hungry and presumptuous drug manufacturer based its findings on rat studies, which would prove to be a mistake upon subsequent human research that showed the SERM’s induced, rather than inhibited ovulation. (4) Needless to say, tamoxifien was withdrawn as a contraceptive.

And remember DES, the original synthetic estrogen developed back in the 1930’s? As it turned out, DES was found to increase the risk of breast cancer by 50%. Further research linked DES to millions of vaginal and testicular cancers among the children of mothers who took DES during pregnancy. (2,5)

The light on synthetic anti-estrogens was dim, and by the late 1960’s, there was little enthusiasm to continue R&D with triphenylethylene based SERM’s, especially considering their inherently toxic effects (7, 10)

It wasn’t until 1971, that tamoxifen would be dug up from the dead and considered as a candidate for cancer treatment.

Treating cancer with a carcinogen –

When research is done on anti-cancer drugs (such as SERMs), the aim is to find a drug that prolongs life, with the least amount of acute side-effects. In other words, the goal isn’t so much about finding a cure, as it is finding something that can alleviate the symptoms and/or prolong life.

For an estrogen dependant cancer, the idea was simple – Block the proliferative action of estrogen with an anti-estrogen and slow the cancer growth. What could be more appropriate than an already available, orally active, patentable synthetic estrogen such as tamoxifen? It was a practical shoo-in.

Therefore, in 1971, when drug researchers decided to examine all of the historical anti-cancer SERM data, they found that all of the SERM’s showed anti-proliferative activity on estrogen dependant cancer, and all of them demonstrated some extent of toxicity. (10, 37-39) However, the SERM that happened to show the least amount of toxicity was tamoxifen. (clomiphene missed the mark by showing a high rate of cataract formation)

At the time, Pierre Blais, a well known drug researcher, commented on the finding (5) -

“Tamoxifen is a garbage drug that made it to the top of the scrap heap. It is a DES in the making."

In spite of the criticism from a number of researchers, the FDA approved tamoxifen as a cancer treatment in 1977, and in 1985 ICI was awarded a US patent for tamoxifen in the treatment of breast cancer. (5) Soon, tamoxifen would become the most popularity prescribed cancer drug.

“Its FDA approved for cancer treatment. It must be safe!”

It’s wrong to assume that an “FDA approved” drug has a proven safety profile. The FDA has continually issued stronger health warnings for tamoxifen over the years. For instance, in 1994 the FDA demanded that the tamoxifen manufacturer Zeneca (an ICI sub-division), issue warning letters to health care practitioners about the increased risk of endometrial and gastro-intestinal cancers with tamoxifen use. Zeneca also reported adverse effects similar to those seen with DES, such as reproductive abnormalities in the animals whose mothers received tamoxifen. (remember, DES was the original synthetic estrogen, and also an analog to tamoxifen)

A number of cancer researchers have pointed out the health risks too, such as Elwood et al (6) -

“[Tamoxifen], therefore, is not appropriate for use in the general population because of the known increased risk of endometrial cancer”

“So why is tamoxifen the most popularly prescribed cancer drug, if it’s so toxic?”

The answer is simple. Tamoxifen is the lesser of two evils.

Tamoxifen remains the most popularly prescribed drug because it is one of the few drugs that has shown a “statistically significant” improvement of the survival rate of breast cancer patients.* (Not to mention, tremendous financial motives and intraworking’s from its patent holder Zeneca)

Remember, the goal in cancer treatment is to prolong life -- even if it means committing to therapy that is potentially cancerous or injurious to future health (as confirmed in long-term follow up’s and close examinations of tamoxifen patients).

So, perhaps the risks are worthy for the cancer patient, but are they worthy for the health conscious male?

* Most research has shown tamoxifen to improve the survival rate by 4-14%. For instance, over a 5 year period, 74% of the women survived who used tamoxifen, compared to 70% of the women on placebo. Depending on the type of cancer, this may translate into an extra 2-3 years of life for a cancer patient. (9) Continuing tamoxifen therapy for more than 5 years, results in increased tumor recurrences and serious side effects. (8)

Translating the science, for men’s health -


Fast forward 30 years, through hundreds of human and animal trials and we find that the research is quite extensive, and contradicting. (21)

The damaging evidence from many early rat studies showed severely toxic effects, including the development of cancer in the liver, uterus, or testes upon tamoxifen administration. (30-34,41) However, this evidence was largely disregarded by further test tube studies on human cell-lines which appeared to show a lack of toxic effects. (21)

This misleading test tube data gave the green flag to perform large scale human studies with tamoxifen in the 80’s and 90’s. Even more misleading, was the majority of the human research described tamoxifen as having a “low incidence of troublesome side effects” and that the “side effects where usually trivial”. (22)

As science would uncover, the lack of human toxicity reported in original tamoxifen research was a result of insufficient study duration, inability to detect low level DNA damage with insensitive methodologies, and/or misdiagnosis of collateral cancers as metastasis infections from the breast cancer itself. (15, 21, 28-34)

A word on clomiphene (Clomid) –

Clomiphene (Clomid) consists of two stereoisomers which possess radically different pharmacodynamics. Zuclomiphene has predominantly estrogenic effects and slow clearance while the enclomiphene isomer has predominately anti-estrogenic effects and quick clearance. (9) This creates a dichotomy between estrogen blockage and estrogen stimulation and an acute imbalance once Clomid administration is discontinued. Bodybuilders will often complain of “estrogenic rebound” after stopping Clomid, which could be attributed to the lingering estrogenic isomer zuclomiphene as the anti-estrogenic enclomiphene has long cleared the system. (Recently, enclomiphene has been isolated by the pharmaceutical company Repros, for use in Androxal™.)

For all intents and purposes, tamoxifen is a superior SERM, simply for the fact that tamoxifen provides a purely anti-estrogenic isomer, whereas Clomid provides a mix of anti and pro estrogenic effects.

In regards to the health consequences about to be listed, it can be safely assumed that Clomid will share similar detrimental effects as tamoxifen, since it shares the same triphenylethylene backbone and carcinogenic tendencies. (44,45,57,58)

Liver cancer -

Originally, tamoxifen was accepted as being non-toxic to human liver upon finding that tamoxifen did not cause noticeable liver damage (DNA adducts) during short-term test tube studies with human liver cells. (35,36)

However, it became apparent that test tuberesearch was largely flawed due to the low rate of metabolism in such a superficial environment. (21) It was soon discovered that the hepatotoxic effects from tamoxifen are from the metabolism and buildup of the a-hydroxytamoxifen and N-desmethyltamoxifen metabolites, which would only appear in an in vivo environment. (15) Surely enough, the results from the original rat studies showing dramatic carcinogenic effects on the liver, 30-34,41 soon correlated with human data when researchers found the same type of liver DNA adducts in tamoxifen patients. (15, 28-34)

More recent human research has reported tamoxifen treated women to have 3x the risk of developing fatty liver disease, which occurs as soon as 3 months into therapy at only 20mg/day. (24-26) In some cases, the disease lasts up to 3 years, despite cessation from tamoxifen therapy. Five and ten year follow-ups with patients on long term tamoxifen therapy shows cases of deadly hepatocellular carcinoma. (27-29)

In 2002, a bizarre study examined the use of tamoxifen for hepatocellular carcinoma treatment in humans. It was assumed that since tamoxifen could inhibit proliferation of breast cancer, it could offer the same benefit for liver cancer. The devastating results could not have been further indicative of tamoxifen’s hepatotoxic nature, as the tamoxifen treatment significantly increased the rate of death, compared to the group not receiving tamoxifen. (14)

Finally, in a case study reviewing tamoxifen induced liver disease; D.F Moffat et al made a profound statement –

“hepatocellular carcinoma in tamoxifen treated patients may be under-reported since there may be reluctance to biopsy liver tumours which are assumed to be secondary carcinoma of the breast.”

In other words, it appears that the liver carcinoma from a large number of breast cancer patients on tamoxifen therapy has been misdiagnosed as an infection from the breast cancer itself. (28)

Although the tamoxifen induced liver cancer make take years to manifest in a healthy male, its damaging effects could easily be exaggerated by other popular hepatotoxc , including 17aa oral steroids. (15)

Prostate cancer -

In 1996, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) concluded that tamoxifen clearly promotes uterine cancer in humans – at a standard 20mg/day dose. (16,23,42) This is due to tamoxifen acting as an estrogen agonist in the uterus, presumably from the 4-hydroxytamoxifen metabolite, which triggers abnormal growth of the uterus and the formation of cancer causing DNA adducts. (33, 40)

Contrary to popular thought, these implications are quite scary for a male when we realize the male equivalent to the uterus is the prostate – which differentiates from the same embryonic cell line, shares the same oncogene, Bcl-2, and high concentration of estrogen receptors. In fact, there is no reason to assume that tamoxifen would not initiate the same the same cancerous growth in the prostate. (60-62) It is no wonder that tamoxifen failed as a treatment for prostate carcinoma. (43)

Note: This same risk would be applicable to Clomid, which has also been linked to uterine cancer and ovarian hyper-stimulation. (18, 19, 57, 59)

Libido reduction & erectile dysfunction -

Erectile dysfunction, low libido, and general impotence are typical complaints from men recently discontinuing steroids or HRT therapy, which is often combated by Clomid or Nolvadex, paradoxically so.

Regardless of any positive effects on fertility or testosterone levels, Clomid and Nolvadex use is highly correlated with erectile dysfunction, libido suppression, and even emotional disorders. (10,47)

Research with male breast cancer patients has also reported decreased libido, and thrombosis associated with tamoxifen use. (47) The thrombotic effect (blood vessel clogging) could explain the mechanism by which SERM’s may inhibit erectile function, by reducing circulation to erectile tissue. (47, 52)

Increased susceptibility to gyno -

Tamoxifen is often used to combat gyno during cycle when “flare ups” occur. While tamoxifen may provide immediate inhibition of proliferation, and serve as valuable tool, it can actually increase future susceptibility to gyno.

This is caused by tamoxifen’s ability to up-regulate the progesterone receptor. (54-56) This can dramatically increase the chances of developming gyno in future cycles when utilizing progestin based anabolics such as Nandrolone (Deca) or Trenbolone (or any pro-hormone acting upon the progesterone receptor).

It is interesting to speculate. Is tamoxifen use directly related to the increased gyno occurrences seen with modern day steroid users?

Ocular toxicity –


Another possible side effect associated with SERMs is visual cloudiness, loss of vision and even cataract formation. Although this tends to be a more common side effect from high dosed SERM therapy, standard 20mg/day tamoxifen regimes have been reported to cause these symptoms of ocular toxicity. (17, 46)

Newer SERM’s -

As the medical community became more aware of the side-effects associated with tamoxifen treatment, newer and safer SERMs, such as toremifene and raloxifene hit the developmental fast track. Toremifene appears to be less liver toxic, but it is a closely related analog of tamoxifen, so it also carries many of the related genotoxic effects. (48,49)

Raloxifene is a newer SERM based off a benzothiophene structure, which appears to make it less toxic in the liver, uterus or prostate. (50-52) Unfortunately, Raloxifene has been associated with a higher incidence of thromboembolism (52), and also has very low oral absorption, making it an expensive alternative at a typical dose (120mg/day). (53) Still, Raloxifene could presumably be equally effective as Clomid or Nolvadex at restoring HPTA function, while imparting less side effects. (53)

Newer SERMs are already being evaluated such as bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene, in hopes of reducing risk even further. (further enumerating the evidence of toxicity with the tamoxifen generation of SERM’s)

What to do now?

Firstly, it should become a priority to create awareness about the possible side effects of SERMs. Once educated, users will be able to start reducing their requirements of these drugs, and begin adopting healthier, more responsible alternatives.

Carefully planned cycles, and the proper use of aromatase inhibitors (AIs) must pursue over haphazard combinations of excessively dosed aromatizing AAS’s -- which require high doses of SERM’s to reduce possible side-effects. Whereas avoiding SERM’s in HRT will involve the natural clearance and management of endogenous estrogens.

It will be important to maintain testicular function during cycle for a quick and efficient recovery of natural testosterone production for PCT – negating the need for high dose 2-3 month SERM based PCT’s. (For more information on the proper use of hCG during cycle, visit here)

Thus, abolishing the bad habit of SERMing will involve community wide enlightenment with careful, comprehensive planning of worthy alternatives.
 
Come on guys, you can't suggest that it's ok for a 20 year old to run a cycle, even if it is Anavar. Your body is naturally producing enough testosterone at that age that you don't need a boost. Unless of course you've had blood work done and your doctor puts you on something. And at the OP's size, seriously? How about adjusting your diet, eating like a horse, and busting your ass in the gym? You'd have no trouble packing on some weight. Let's try the balls out natural way before we start using products that could potentially mess up your natural test production for the rest of your life. I'm not saying it will, just that it could. And Nolva? You guys should know better than that. If you don't, I'd suggest reading the article I've posted below. And if you're interested in the full article, with references, you can check it out here: Articles about nutrition, supplements, drugs, health, and training


That is a super valuable article Jimbo15. Thanks for posting it.

And I agree he should wait to run anything. Even though Anavar is mild. As other posters have pointed out, shut down is shut down. But as we know, it's hard to change anybodies mind once they want to do a cycle. Hell I'm no different.

It's just that the PCT is more important than the cycle itself and the TRS from Primordial has been proven again and again to provide a softer landing. I just feel so much better versus using a SERM alone and you can at the very least use a far lower dose.
 
PCT: Nolva 4 weeks @ 20/20/10/10 with some sustain alpha

Youll need to preload on liver, cholesterol, BP supps etc (life support) for a couple of weeks and continue these throughout the duration of your pct.
Drink 1 gallon of H20 a day also
 
Nolvadex is crap pct.


Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs) are a class of compounds that act on the estrogen receptor.[1] A characteristic that distinguishes these substances from pure receptor agonists and antagonists is that their action is different in various tissues, thereby granting the possibility to selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like action in various tissues.Phytoseruma are scientifically accepted SERMs from a botanical source.Phytoserm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Get with the times people. We have made advancements and nolvadex (pushed my the drug companies is old news. Why is nolvadex pushed so much. Why do we see so many bullshit studies flouting around about it?

Once praised for its benefits in preventing breast cancer recurrence, the lucrative pharmaceutical drug tamoxifen is now implicated in causing dangerous side-effects, including other types of cancers.

In the early 1970's, a shameful chapter closed on the widespread use of a known carcinogenic and endocrine-disrupting drug called DES (diethylstilboestrol), the first synthetic, non-steroidal estrogen drug. Against the advice of its creator, Sir Charles Dodd, between four and six million American and European women and 10,000 Australian women innocently used DES for the prevention of miscarriage and pregnancy complications.

In addition, DES became a popular though unproven drug for a variety of other conditions. It was used for the suppression of lactation, the treatment of acne, the treatment of certain types of breast and prostatic cancer, and as an inhibitor of growth in young girls, an estrogen replacement in menopause and a "morning after" pill.

It would take 30 years to accept what laboratory tests had indicated as early as 1938 — that DES was a highly dangerous and harmful drug. It was reported that, 20 years after taking DES, mothers had a 40 to 50 per cent greater risk of breast cancer than non-exposed mothers. In addition, the children of DES mothers showed a high incidence of reproductive abnormalities, miscarriages, vaginal cancer, testicular cancer, sterility and immune dysfunction. In fact, it is feared that repercussions of this drug will be felt for generations to come.

The irony of this entire debacle is that the medical establishment finally acknowledged that DES was useless in preventing miscarriages. Thus, DES, another disastrous experiment on women, was added to the long list of major medical blunders.

Out of this early research, a new drug appeared on the horizon which would be soon be heralded as a shining star in the war against the growing epidemic of breast cancer. In the late 1960's the pharmaceutical industry developed a drug called "tamoxifen". As a synthetic, non-steroidal compound with hormone-like effects (many of which are poorly understood), tamoxifen has a similar structure to DES. In fact, it was observed that tamoxifen caused the same abnormal changes seen in cells of women taking estradiol and DES. (1) This similarity raised alarm bells for some.

Pierre Blais, well known as a drug researcher who was ejected from Canada's health protection bureaucracy when he spoke out about silicone breast implants, describes the story of tamoxifen as "the story of modern drug design which produces garbage drugs". He says, "Good drug design ceased, unfortunately, in the 1930s." Tamoxifen, Blais asserts, "...is a garbage drug that made it to the top of the scrap heap. It is a DES in the making." (2)

Blais's dire predictions were ignored with the promise of a potential drug treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen was first approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use as a birth-control pill; however, it proved to induce rather than inhibit ovulation. Although tamoxifen didn't work as a contraceptive, it was found to lower mammary cancer rates in animals. Animal studies showed that tamoxifen prevented estrogen from binding to receptor sites on breast tissue cells. Tamoxifen also reduced the incidence of breast cancer in rodents after administration of a breast-carcinogenic substance. This discovery provided the impetus to study its effects in treating human breast cancer.

Estrogen is the common link between most breast cancer risk factors, i.e., genetic, reproductive, dietary, lifestyle and environmental. It both stimulates the division of breast cells (healthy as well as cancerous) and, especially in its 'bad' form, increases the risk of breast cancer. Thus, hormonal drugs such as tamoxifen that block the effects of estrogen on the breast were expected to reduce the risk of breast cancer recurring in women treated for breast cancer. (3)

Tamoxifen acts as a weak estrogen by competing for estrogen receptors much as phyto-estrogens do. Like phyto-estrogens, tamoxifen has mild estrogenic properties but is considered an anti-estrogen since it inhibits the activity of regular estrogens. More accurately, tamoxifen is an estrogen-blocker. It fights breast cancer by competing with estrogen for space on estrogen receptors in the tumor tissue. Every tamoxifen molecule that hooks onto an estrogen receptor prevents an estrogen molecule from linking up at the same site. Without a steady supply of estrogen, cells in an estrogen-receptor-positive (ER+) tumor do not thrive and the tumor's ability to spread is reduced. (4)

However, tamoxifen exhibited two conflicting characteristics. It could act either as an anti-estrogen or as an estrogen. Therefore, while tamoxifen is anti-estrogenic to the breast, it also acts as an estrogen to the uterus and, to a lesser extent, the heart, blood vessels and bone. So, although it initially showed the tendency to counter breast cancer recurrence, it would soon be revealed that it also promoted particularly aggressive uterine and liver cancers, caused fatal blood clots and interfered with many other functions.

Doctors, however, were quick to jump on the tamoxifen bandwagon, turning a blind eye to its more injurious tendencies. Starting in the 1970's oncologists began using tamoxifen to treat women with cancer, often in combination with other drugs, radiation or surgery such as lumpectomy and mastectomy, with modest success. Like DES, tamoxifen's benefits were then extended for use as a preventive against osteoporosis and heart disease.

Today, doctors are treating about one million American breast cancer patients with tamoxifen, about 20 per cent of them for more than five years. As studies published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1989 and the Journal of the National Cancer Institute in 1992 showed, women with breast cancer who took tamoxifen reduced their chances of developing cancer in the other breast (contralateral cancer) by about 30 to 50 per cent. (3) These findings would later be challenged.

Tamoxifen is now recommended for all pre-menopausal women with hormone-positive cancers, as well as for most postmenopausal women with breast cancer and/or a growing number of women with hormone-negative cancers. Tamoxifen is currently used by more women with breast cancer than any other drug. (6)

Tamoxifen (brand name Nolvadex) is now the most widely prescribed cancer medication in the world. It generated revenues of US $265 million in 1992. By 1995, worldwide sales of Nolvadex reached $400 million. (7) And at AUD $90 for one month's supply, it doesn't come cheap (the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme covers $70).

Tamoxifen was developed by UK-based Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI), one of the world's largest multinational chemical corporations. Zeneca, an ICI subsidiary, is responsible for manufacturing and marketing the hormone and is now the world's largest cancer-drug company.
CARCINOGENENIC EFFECTS
It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place. Even Australia's conservative National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) warned that no amount of tamoxifen is safe when it comes to carcinogenic effects.

In California there is a law called "Proposition 65" that requires the state to publish and maintain a list of all known carcinogens. In May 1995, the state's Carcinogen Identification Committee voted unanimously to add tamoxifen to its list.
 
That is a super valuable article Jimbo15. Thanks for posting it.

And I agree he should wait to run anything. Even though Anavar is mild. As other posters have pointed out, shut down is shut down. But as we know, it's hard to change anybodies mind once they want to do a cycle. Hell I'm no different.

It's just that the PCT is more important than the cycle itself and the TRS from Primordial has been proven again and again to provide a softer landing. I just feel so much better versus using a SERM alone and you can at the very least use a far lower dose.

Then (transdermaly administered) resveratrol which is in the sustain has been clinically proven to be a estrogen agonist musch like a serum. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...s/resveratrol/ just one search and the info is all there (proven) info. scientifically accepted Phytoserm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia..


And you are damn right the people who know this information are damn glad they made the switch and started using the better alternatives out there

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...order-dermacrine-brings-back-life-552806.html
the new monthly cycle report thread.
dermacrin is the ......
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You want a better pct come talk to me bro. Send me a pm and will talk. Thanks :biggrin:
 
im 21 5'7 150 pounds

And if anyone was paying attention he is 21 not 20



RADAR

If your referring to me, yes i said 20 and meant 20. Anything under that is pushing it IMO. I know some guys that been taking them since there teens and they are huge now but I don't think playing with your hormones at that young of an age is a good idea. Everyone is different and not sure if he's done his research or not but I was a hard gainer and weighed only 160 at 6'2 when I started. Lifted idk how long and still couldn't put on weight. I feel if I didn't use gear I wouldn't be much over 160. I could eat a horse and not gain weight. My whole family is skin and bones basically. Idk maybe theres somethin wrong with me though that i don't know about but I doubt it as I was always very athletic and in good shape... Just skinny. Just my .02 Not trying to flame anyone
 
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