Fear overtraining with WSB?

[Tarheel]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about by new program for Jan untill the first week of March, and I've been playing around with a modified 9 week basic WSB program. But it just seems like so many hardcore lifts that its going to be very taxing.

Is it pretty easy to overtrain with WSB (I get the feeling that it is)? I will be doing zero band work and zero chain work, so that should help me, but I'll be replacing some of the assistance work with partial olympic lifts on dynamic days mostly.

If I dont set a PR each week, that would be the best sign of overtraining, right?

 

[Liftbig]

you shouldnt overtrain. when i trained in high school i overtrained all the time. now that im training westside i dont.
as long as you keep an eye on howmuch your doing and listen to your body youll be fine. the key is switching stuff around to keep from overtraining. like on accessories i do something for like 2-3 workouts then swith to somethings else.

 

[makedah]

I'm a veritable Amazon in some circles (and in my own mind ), but I'm probably the weakest one here, and I'm not overtrained on WSB.

I found it to be very taxing, but as you know, that's not the same as overtraining; I got overtrained in the past, so I know what it feels like. I was fairly new to the heavy weights when I started WSB and my GPP sucked (it could still use some work!), so it took me 2 to 2.5 months to get to the point where I could do cardio on my non-training days. I had to get accustomed to the workload, which meant taking it easy for a couple of weeks, but I never got overtrained.

Getting "stuck" at a PR doesn't necessarily mean overtraining (although I guess it could) it could mean any number of things. Spatts has described being "stuck" for a couple of weeks and then all of a sudden getting a big jump in her numbers.

The way I understand it, you can only get PRs on a max move for a certain number of weeks before your CNS "stalls." It may mean it's time to change up the move. Even if you've switched up moves, it may mean that you've got a "weak link" that you have to bring up before you can go forward. For example, my squats or gms won't get much better until I can hold more weight on my back.

 

[spatts]

I often wonder if I'm training enough. Seems I get great results on less work than I ever did in other regimens.

 

[dg21]

I agree with Spatts. Using the westside methods going into my last meet, I didn't do a whole lot of work in the gym. I did 3-4, sometimes 5 exercises and that was it. I made gains but I wonder if i could benefit from a higher volume. I am working on that question now.

You can train westside and still have a low overall volume and not worry about overtraining. Just listen to your body, but also don't be afraid of training hard as hell.

And how come no chains or bands. They are a great tool.

 

[b fold the truth]

You must remember that you do NOT train to failure but on 2 sets per week...IF you hit failure then. There is a line between volume and intensity...you have to find the right spot.

B True

 

[Vulgar_Display_Of_Power]

Another thing that no one has mentioned yet.....

If you start to feel beat up or sluggish, Take a day or so off.

My personal opinion isthat on this style of training, you can take a little time off here and there and come back just as strong or stronger.--Unlike a progressive w/o where you miss a workout or two and comeback and the weights required are suddenly much higher than when you took off.

Just my two cents worth.


Later..

 

[powerlifterjay]

I think if you follow it to a tee you will not overtrain. IN fact you may ask yourself if yoru doing enough. Problem, at least with me, is when you modify it. The way i train , then do westside my way i can end up overtrainig. Not so much my lower body but upper. I personally do not feel like westside gets enough quality back n shoulder work. Just my opinion.

Does it work? Yes. Just make sure you do it right for you. If you feel overtrained, back off. Less is best.

 

[Vulgar_Display_Of_Power]

OOOPS- On e more thing!

Start looking into all the recovery and extraworkouts that are recomended with the westside routine.

Ill admit its a pain in the ass to try and find time to do, but if you can, It does wonders and help you get back to the iron that much quicker.

Look into it.

Later..

 

[makedah]

Oh yeah, even if you don't think you want to use bands yet for lifting, buy some for AR. On the Women's Board, there's a great sticky on using bands for active recovery. I use it esp. on my hams (pull-throughs) and I think it really helps.

The size band you order depends on your strength. Here's the pressure chart at Jump Stretch: http://www.jumpstretch.com/PressureChart.htm

Click on the link for each band to see how much resistance it gives.

 

[Liftbig]

extra workouts are good but dont over do them.,

i do 1-2 extra workouts a week.

tuesday ill do rev hypers for 3-4 sets at about 200 lbs
then do 2-3 high rep standing abs with the blue band
then drag the sled for hips


saturday i will again do rev hypers w/ 200 pounds or so
do some standing abs
then drag for distance about 3-4 trips

sometimes for upper body ill just do 3 sets of 15 with 155 on the bench after squat workouts. but usually my upper body recovers fine without them.

 

[Tarheel]

Yeah I've modified it a lot, especially the DE Bench days. I'm still tweaking it some though, and moving some of the stuff around.

I think I might get some mini-bands just for DE Bench and active recovery.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

My $.02: I think trying to train just like westside without taking the same "supps" they do is like all the beginner bodybuilding kids out there following the "Mr. O" routine in FLEX. Overtraining is just around the corner.

 

[spatts]

My $.02: I think trying to train just like westside without taking the same "supps" they do is like all the beginner bodybuilding kids out there following the "Mr. O" routine in FLEX. Overtraining is just around the corner.

I'm able to do it just fine...with a handy little thing called

A C T I V E

R E C O V E R Y

 

[makedah]

When I overtrained in early 2002, it I did it going full tilt on video fitness tapes (cardio + low weight/high reps) and running.

from http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/dtate4.htm

Myth #4: Westside training will not work for drug free lifters

It must be a sign that just after I typed the last statement I received a call from Bartett Eastman of Auburn, Alabama. After some time on the phone with him discussing training theory and methods I discovered that he is a drug free power lifter that up until 18 months ago trained using the standard approach to power lifting. The western method as discussed above. This training lead him to many missed peaks and terrible constant elbow pain. His lifts were stuck at a 450 squat, 300 bench and a 530 dead lift for over a year. He switched to using the Westside methods utilizing the max effort, dynamic effort and repetition methods. After 14 months training this way his lifts went up to a 600 squat, 400 bench and a 610 dead lift. His 50-year young father also made the switch after being stuck as well and went up from lifts of 400 squat, 200 bench, and 450 dead lift to new records of 475 squat, 250 bench, and 500 dead lift. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. Did I mention they are both drug free? I asked Barrett what advise he would give to other drug free lifters. He told me do not change a thing about the program. He has seen it not work when they try to add in extra rest days, increase supplementary volume, not box squat, and doing to many heavy sets. He also suggested learning about the system first by reading the articles then get he videos. The videos helped him tie everything together by reinforcing the proper execution of some of the special exercises such as a JM Press, Board Press, Carpet Press, Good Morning Squat,ect.
Keep in mind workload is determined by the absolute strength of the lifter. Will an 800-pound drug free lifter be able to handle the same workload as an 800-pound squatter who uses drugs? Why not? The problem lies with the 400-pound squatter doing the same workload as the 800-pound squatter. Most drug free lifters fall in this category. If you are training drug free it is very important to know your strength and stay within your training workload.
---

Of course I wouldn't know for sure, but I would guess that this chickie is probably drug-free: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/Krista.htm

 

[rjl296]

that chick is from my town !!

 

[circusgirl]

I'm imagining the 800 pound lifter. Oh, he means lifter who can SQUAT 800 pounds. I see .

 

[BigD50]

I don't have anything against the Westside way other than:

1. I'm tired of reading in every article I see that they have this many lifters squating this much, benching this much, blah, blah. Save it already.

2. I've seen a few lifts in the Westside friendly meets and judging and equipment rules seemed a bit lax.

3. Prove to me that just by changing a few inches in range of motion that it taxes the CNS any differently. If you go from a floor press to a board presses, etc. how does that change much? You could actually tax your CNS more by adding volume and cutting the weight in half, changing intensity, or run a few miles and see how wiped out you are. Ask a neurologist or a sports medicine doctor about it and see what they have to say.

Also in my humble opinion I think that a normal natural lifter would have a tough time following the Westside principles completly without drugs. I think a modified system of Westside and others ways along with breaks from the heavy lifting is the only way to consistantly make progress. It all depends on the person and their goals.

 

[spatts]

Any neurologist would tell you that you can't train the neve without training the muscle because the nerve and muscle together make up a motor unit and are nothing without eachother. I spent DAYS with a physiologist on the women's board dispelling the myth of this training being "mostly CNS." I don't think Louie ever said it, I think alot of people that were looking for a reason to justify weight : strength ratios said it. In either case, you're right. It's not only untrue, but impossible.

I personally like this training, follow as close to the book as possible, without getting a lesson from Tate or Simmons themselves. I'm not "on," I think I'm pretty "normal," and it works for me. It won't work for everyone though.

I thought this thread was about whether or not we worried about being over trained with WSB training. Conditioning has to be factored, among other things, but in general I make it a point to be more concerned with under-recovering than over-training.

BTW, what is a "Westside friendly meet?"

 

[Tarheel]

Any type of movement or low impact exercise would be considered active recovery, right?

So like riding a (real) bike on some trails, or doing some benches with just the bar or like 65 lbs, doing some squats with just the bar, etc. All of that would be AR, as well as work with the bands, right?

My bands wont be here for a while.

 

[DOM]

yep tarheel.

however I don't know about biking. Biking will contribute greatly to your GPP but while I'm at school I have to bike 5 - 10 miles a day, and I think that was hurting my recovery times rather than helping it, usually had to take an extra 1 or 2 days off and I think this was one of the reasons. Like I said though, it increased general physical preparedness a lot -- I'm in way better shape than I'd be if I didn't have to bike around.

 

[spatts]

In theory, yes. I prefer bands because there's no eccentric. So no reripping the fibers. Allows them more time to heal. My AR doesn't feel like a workout. With the bands, you're contracting the muscle, but oddly enough it feels like a stretch. Keeps fresh blood and oxygen pumping through the muscles....and I can do it anywhere. That's why I do it. IMMV.

 

[BigD50]

Spatts-Finally someone agrees with me on the un-true Westside CNS theory.

 

[spatts]

BigD...I didn't know westside ever said anything about it. I thought it was a bunch of bunk physiology made up to prove a point otherwise misunderstood by the general public.

 

[BigD50]

Read some of Louie's articles. I was just looking at a PowerliftingUSA mag from a few years ago and one of Louie's articles talks about it. I think I have also seen it many times in Westside articles on Dave Tate's website.

The Westside friendly meets like the Westside Invitational and others like it or the meets where a core group of WS lifters show up with double ply groove breifs and dbl/trpl ply suits and shirts and so juiced up they are totally red faced from high BP and get nose bleeds and squat above parallel and the lifts get passed. Oh wait maybe I dreamt the last part.

 

[spatts]

Oh, gotcha on the meet thing.

I remember so articles talking about improving firing rate of the nerve, and it IS hard on the CNS...but not without also being hard on the muscles that they fire. I have all the videos. Perhaps I'll go back and listen for exactly what is said.

 

[makedah]

I think a modified system of Westside and others ways along with breaks from the heavy lifting is the only way to consistantly make progress.

That's sure what I do!