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Face Pulls
- Thread starter spatts
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Imnotdutch
butler monkey
Thaibox said:Wow, I can't believe how long I just stared at those pictures, and have no idea what this thread is about, and don't actually care
I knew that would happen when I first saw Spat's post
.The lady has good timing.......I was in the middle of revamping by back workout so I figure I'll build these in.
I think that doing these can really help with all overhead pressing movements...shoot...all pressing movements as well as read delt development.
It is amazing how much these really isolate my rear delts...a muscle which was really neglected in my bodybuilding days.
B True
It is amazing how much these really isolate my rear delts...a muscle which was really neglected in my bodybuilding days.
B True
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
Presumably the point is to pull back as far as possible with elbows out wide??
I mostly do these as a warm up before every workout. My lat pull down is a piece of junk, no seat and nothing to anchor my feet or legs with...so I do them standing. I do just like a lat pull down but I lean back slightly farther and pull them to different points of my face. Chin, nose, eyes, forehead, above my head...try variations.
B True
B True
Night Fly said:
You don't want to know what was running through my head.
Yes, I do.
B True
hey there spatterson...I remember talking about a midwest get together like the oklahoma boys did awhile back but forgot where you all are at and lost track of that thread.
SOooooOOoo....where are you at?
Who knows, might be able to get something goin.
If I do get a pulldown system on my cage I'll give those face pulls a try.
adios
SOooooOOoo....where are you at?
Who knows, might be able to get something goin.
If I do get a pulldown system on my cage I'll give those face pulls a try.
adios
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
spatterson said:
Kelso shrugs.......you might have to describe that if I can't find it in a search.
Most people do shrugs standing or sitting, but always upright. A kelso shrug is really any shrug that's performed on another plane, other than upright. The example I had in mind is one you can do on a chest supported T-bar row or inclined bench. Arioch turned me on to these, and I really like where they hit. You just lay face down on the incline bench or chest support, and rather than rowing, you shrug at that angle. You can also sit back at a 135 degree angle on a cable row, and shrug a narrow or wide bar (I hook the lat pull down bar up to the cable). You can also lay completely back and shrug. These are great, but I'm just a girl and I can do the stack, so it may not be enough weight for you.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
spatterson said:
I'll give it a shot starting next week. Always need more back
. Thanks for the help.
Robert Jan
New member
I`m with thaibox on this one...
I have decided to split up my back training in three days during the week
chest - upperback
> pulldown
> barbell row, t-bar row, dumbell row
rear delt - lower traps - upper trap
> rear delt raises, kelso shrugs, face pulls, standing shrugs
lowerback - hamstring
> stldl, deadlift, hyperextension
This way I hope the get serious thickness in my back, my lats and rear delt grew relatively easy but i need some boa constrictors running along my spine and a crismass tree in the lumbal department to make it complete
chest - upperback
> pulldown
> barbell row, t-bar row, dumbell row
rear delt - lower traps - upper trap
> rear delt raises, kelso shrugs, face pulls, standing shrugs
lowerback - hamstring
> stldl, deadlift, hyperextension
This way I hope the get serious thickness in my back, my lats and rear delt grew relatively easy but i need some boa constrictors running along my spine and a crismass tree in the lumbal department to make it complete
Vortexx, are you shooting for strength or size? The reason I ask (and this applies more if you're NOT on, but...), if hypertrophy is what you want, you may not want to split into 3 days. You will likely hit all those muscles all those days, even though some days are more directly aimed at certain muscles than others. In doing so, you will rerip fibers that you ripped in a previous session rather than letting them heal. That healing process is what creates hypertrophy. If you interupt it, you risk gaining muscle endurance without size.
You may be right, but being stubborn as i am I give it a try for three months and will give an honest account of what happend.
Funny thing is that some things in bb defy logic when you first look at them.
Example, a buddy of mine was able to let his arms shoot up to 19" inches by training them EVERY DAY.
first i was very sceptical about his recovery time< but when he got results so fast< i figured their must be a difference between RECOVERY TIME FOR A SINGLE MUSCLE and RECOVERY TIME FOR CNS / INTERNAL ORGANS ETC...
Offcoars he was doing less sets for arms every day than if he would devote a single arm day and he was doing this for one bodypart only, otherwise I would be pretty sure he would be short on TOTAL BODY RECOVERY time and pretty soon birnt out....
What I hope for that hammering away at my back more often in a week will not eat away too much of my total body recovery time . If i can keep it within the limits i might get away with it. Maybe when thickness of my back is up to par I might choose to overtrain another bodypart and take a full 4-5 days between hitting back again....
I'll keep you posted...
Funny thing is that some things in bb defy logic when you first look at them.
Example, a buddy of mine was able to let his arms shoot up to 19" inches by training them EVERY DAY.
first i was very sceptical about his recovery time< but when he got results so fast< i figured their must be a difference between RECOVERY TIME FOR A SINGLE MUSCLE and RECOVERY TIME FOR CNS / INTERNAL ORGANS ETC...
Offcoars he was doing less sets for arms every day than if he would devote a single arm day and he was doing this for one bodypart only, otherwise I would be pretty sure he would be short on TOTAL BODY RECOVERY time and pretty soon birnt out....
What I hope for that hammering away at my back more often in a week will not eat away too much of my total body recovery time . If i can keep it within the limits i might get away with it. Maybe when thickness of my back is up to par I might choose to overtrain another bodypart and take a full 4-5 days between hitting back again....
I'll keep you posted...
Spatts if i had your brains and dedication to learning and experimenting i would be 220 instead of 200!
Vortexx ben je nederlander of niet? Kun je nederlands? I will say this in engels then since i do not know: why so many rowing movements? I say maybe drop the one arm rows. I also do not think (and this is from what i see in my own back over 16 years) that there is no difference in the muscles hit by t-bars and those hit by barbell rows. I might suggest just two big movements here, pulldowns/pullups and bentover barbell rows as they limit the biceps working more then t-bars.
Also remember that the muscles you work on your rear delt/trap day are fairly small muscles. If you want to do four excerizes total for this area then i would say to limit your sets quite a bit. 8 worksets to complette failure for this area is a lot of work.
Lower volumne higher intensity workouts have allowed me to add about 35 pounds of muscle over the years. It can work.
As for your friends arms. It was extra pump, not new muslce. . I also added an inche to my arms in just two weeks by doing very high volumne arm workouts many years ago. Decreased my volumne amount and the pump left quickly.
Vortexx ben je nederlander of niet? Kun je nederlands? I will say this in engels then since i do not know: why so many rowing movements? I say maybe drop the one arm rows. I also do not think (and this is from what i see in my own back over 16 years) that there is no difference in the muscles hit by t-bars and those hit by barbell rows. I might suggest just two big movements here, pulldowns/pullups and bentover barbell rows as they limit the biceps working more then t-bars.
Also remember that the muscles you work on your rear delt/trap day are fairly small muscles. If you want to do four excerizes total for this area then i would say to limit your sets quite a bit. 8 worksets to complette failure for this area is a lot of work.
Lower volumne higher intensity workouts have allowed me to add about 35 pounds of muscle over the years. It can work.
As for your friends arms. It was extra pump, not new muslce. . I also added an inche to my arms in just two weeks by doing very high volumne arm workouts many years ago. Decreased my volumne amount and the pump left quickly.
latinus_spicticus
New member
You are doing the face pulls wrong. They should be done on a low pulley with the tricep strap or a rope. Bring the rope to your forehead while retracting the scapulae. This is one of the best exercises for the rear delts/neck/traps/upper back.
Go here http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_85back.html and look at exercise number 4. This is the proper illustration for "face pulls".
The way that you are doing them on an overhead pulldown machine is not nearly as effective as doing them on a lateral plane using a low pulley.
Go here http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_85back.html and look at exercise number 4. This is the proper illustration for "face pulls".
The way that you are doing them on an overhead pulldown machine is not nearly as effective as doing them on a lateral plane using a low pulley.
Hi Magdalena,
I am a "geboren en getogen" dutch guy indeed.
I will throw out the one-arm rows and crank up intensity on the other exercises
I am glad to hear that T-bars work the same muscles as barbell rows !!!
Cause T-bars are more stabile for me and less prone for lowerback injuries (I have to watch my lowerback carefully due to car-accident i had in my adolescent years)
About more biceps involvement in T-bars as opposed to barbell rows, fortunately my bi's are pretty strong links, they usually do not fail before my back muscles.
do you use wide/reverse grip T-bar rows as well (this would most mimic the barbell row) ???? Unfortunately in our gym we only the small triangle attachments and lack true multi-grip handle so that you can space your hands to suit your needs....
Also i have some questions about the execution:
1. To Jerk or not to Jerk ? Keep the torso in a fixed position or use the erector spinae as assisting muscle? How much jerking is acceptable...?
2. Angle of the Torso, In my gym I see some people allmost standing upright when they "proudly demonstrate" how much weight they can pull. I feel that this is self-deception. I have allways done T-bars with upperbody parallel to the floor , less weight and good form, but maybe i need some angle in between ??????
3. Should I hold and squeeze in the contracting position ?
It's not all questions, I actually got a nice trick for T-bars.
Many people load up the bar with like 3 big 45 lbs plates. But when you pull the bar, the size of the plates limits the range of motion as they hit your torso... I alway use all the small plates in the gym ( not everybody likes that ;-) and get much greater range of motion....
I am a "geboren en getogen" dutch guy indeed.
I will throw out the one-arm rows and crank up intensity on the other exercises
I am glad to hear that T-bars work the same muscles as barbell rows !!!
Cause T-bars are more stabile for me and less prone for lowerback injuries (I have to watch my lowerback carefully due to car-accident i had in my adolescent years)
About more biceps involvement in T-bars as opposed to barbell rows, fortunately my bi's are pretty strong links, they usually do not fail before my back muscles.
do you use wide/reverse grip T-bar rows as well (this would most mimic the barbell row) ???? Unfortunately in our gym we only the small triangle attachments and lack true multi-grip handle so that you can space your hands to suit your needs....
Also i have some questions about the execution:
1. To Jerk or not to Jerk ? Keep the torso in a fixed position or use the erector spinae as assisting muscle? How much jerking is acceptable...?
2. Angle of the Torso, In my gym I see some people allmost standing upright when they "proudly demonstrate" how much weight they can pull. I feel that this is self-deception. I have allways done T-bars with upperbody parallel to the floor , less weight and good form, but maybe i need some angle in between ??????
3. Should I hold and squeeze in the contracting position ?
It's not all questions, I actually got a nice trick for T-bars.
Many people load up the bar with like 3 big 45 lbs plates. But when you pull the bar, the size of the plates limits the range of motion as they hit your torso... I alway use all the small plates in the gym ( not everybody likes that ;-) and get much greater range of motion....
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
latinus_spicticus said:
The illustration doesn't show a low pulley......the pulley is set at head height. Also, neither the text or the pictures say bring the rope to the forehead. One other thing, the guy in your article has to rotate his arms (so wrists move over upper arm) to get a full range of movement. To bring the rope to the forehead he would need to rotate his arms even more. That isn't necessary in Spats method..........
Besides, if Bfold and Spats (plus her training partners) do them this way I'll go with their methods. They seem to make alot of progress doing things their way.
Of course there is also the problem of finding an appropriate pulley that is at face height if you want to use the method you linked to.......
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Imnotdutch
butler monkey
Whilst I'm here.........
Spats,
I remember you posting something about making great gains in your bench since you were shown what to do with your back. Could you write what you do with your back.......I'm experimenting with my technique and am trying to find success stories to refer to.
Spats,
I remember you posting something about making great gains in your bench since you were shown what to do with your back. Could you write what you do with your back.......I'm experimenting with my technique and am trying to find success stories to refer to.
Hoi Vortexx,
Funny that we type only in engels to each other. I guess we should sinds others can read too. Why do all Amsterdammers speak such perfect engels??!? I could learn from you i think!
Ja t-bars use the biceps more and make it possbile to lift more weight. However, even with very stron bis they are still small muscles and will fail before the muscles of the back. good that you stay with them instead of barbells if you feel so much more comforable with them and feel that they protect your back as well. I might suggest just that you think about lifting the weitht with your elbos, and compleetly forget your arms are there. Imagine that someone is behind you pulling your arms up by your elbos. Lift with the elbos nice and high. This can make much less bicep involvement here. And squeez hard to the top of the move with the weight pulled to your chest, one second count here, and no pause at all at the bottom of the move.
No, do not jerk with the erectors. Remember you are working the upper back not lower. The jerking thing i something i see many guys do in order to just lift more weight. Only your arms, sholders and scapula should move.
Yes do them parallel to the floor. You are doing them better then those other guys.
tot meels, lana
Funny that we type only in engels to each other. I guess we should sinds others can read too. Why do all Amsterdammers speak such perfect engels??!? I could learn from you i think!
Ja t-bars use the biceps more and make it possbile to lift more weight. However, even with very stron bis they are still small muscles and will fail before the muscles of the back. good that you stay with them instead of barbells if you feel so much more comforable with them and feel that they protect your back as well. I might suggest just that you think about lifting the weitht with your elbos, and compleetly forget your arms are there. Imagine that someone is behind you pulling your arms up by your elbos. Lift with the elbos nice and high. This can make much less bicep involvement here. And squeez hard to the top of the move with the weight pulled to your chest, one second count here, and no pause at all at the bottom of the move.
No, do not jerk with the erectors. Remember you are working the upper back not lower. The jerking thing i something i see many guys do in order to just lift more weight. Only your arms, sholders and scapula should move.
Yes do them parallel to the floor. You are doing them better then those other guys.
tot meels, lana
latinus_spicticus
New member
This post is for anyone who is intelligent and open-minded enough to listen to sound advice. Try both methods of face pulls: one using a low pulley where you bring the rope to the neck/head/face, and one using the high pulldown machine where you bring the rope to the neck/head/face. Which variation feels more effective and is more difficult? You get BINGO if you say "the low pulley variation". Poliquin, simmons/westside guys etc. all advocate using the low pulley for face pulls. Low-pulley face pulls are a GREAT exercise-- I am only trying to help out here. If you aren't doing them and have access to a low pulley machine, then you are only cheating yourself. I am not going to argue this anymore, my point has been made.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
latinus_spicticus said:
Ok I just found a definition of Face Pulls written by none other than Dave Tate;
"Face Pulls: This exercise is designed to work the muscles of the upper back and posterior deltoids with the use of a lat pulldown machine and a straight bar or leather tricep strap. Stand in front of the pulldown machine with your hands spaced on the bar wider than shoulder width. Stand back and pull the bar to your face while keeping your elbows flared out. Try to contract the muscles of your upper back for a couple of seconds before returning to the starting position."
Here is the link:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/158bench.html
So apparently Westside does not advocate the low pulley.
In the link that you posted yourself I believe the author was Poliquin......he said use a face height pulley not a low pulley.
As far as intelligent enough to listen to sound advice......where there are conflicting points of view is it not intelligent to listen to all sides and then make your mind up?? it seems to me that if you want to make progress in this game you have to be prepared to experiment and listen to those that try new things.....I'll be trying both methods and I'll let youknow which feels more effective to me.
BTW we are not arguing to the best of my knowledge.....
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fistfullofsteel
Well-known member
ME WANTS SOME SPATTERSON
UMMMMM, ummmmm, ummmmm. What's that Spatterson? You want me to jump of a bridge? Ok, no problem. How tall do you want the bridge to be?
UMMMMM, ummmmm, ummmmm. What's that Spatterson? You want me to jump of a bridge? Ok, no problem. How tall do you want the bridge to be?
Holy Cow, let's open our minds indeed, and perhaps take our own advice. There are MANY variations on this movement, and the one I posted is just one. Try one, try them all...they're not REALLY all that different, and you will either get results or you won't. Simple. You can tell after the first set if it's hitting where you want it to or not.
dutch, I just use the bar to pull my body up, pinch my shoudler blades together, and lay back down on them pinched together.I drive with my heels back onto my upper back, and bring the bar out using my lats and without letting my shoulder blades separate. This posture will take a few inches off your bench stroke, so you may need to lower the hooks that the bar starts on. Then I descend elbows in and down to my upper abs, which is also where the bar is directly over my elbow with my arm at 90 degrees against my body, and press straight up (not back). Hope that made sense to you.
dutch, I just use the bar to pull my body up, pinch my shoudler blades together, and lay back down on them pinched together.I drive with my heels back onto my upper back, and bring the bar out using my lats and without letting my shoulder blades separate. This posture will take a few inches off your bench stroke, so you may need to lower the hooks that the bar starts on. Then I descend elbows in and down to my upper abs, which is also where the bar is directly over my elbow with my arm at 90 degrees against my body, and press straight up (not back). Hope that made sense to you.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
"dutch, I just use the bar to pull my body up, pinch my shoudler blades together, and lay back down on them pinched together.I drive with my heels back onto my upper back, and bring the bar out using my lats and without letting my shoulder blades separate. This posture will take a few inches off your bench stroke, so you may need to lower the hooks that the bar starts on. Then I descend elbows in and down to my upper abs, which is also where the bar is directly over my elbow with my arm at 90 degrees against my body, and press straight up (not back). Hope that made sense to you."
Thanks that makes sense.........i set my back up as you do but I don't think I manage to maintain it when I help lift out the bar. I'll work on it. Never have used my legs well......I'll work on that too.
Thanks.
Thanks that makes sense.........i set my back up as you do but I don't think I manage to maintain it when I help lift out the bar. I'll work on it. Never have used my legs well......I'll work on that too.
Thanks.
spatterson said:
Dutch...funny thing about "benching with your legs"...as I have seen with Spatts and Project....its just one of those things that eventually clicks. And once it does your bench feels like one movement...not a series of individuals movements.
I remember when Spatts finally felt it..and it clicked. Project didnt "get it" until last week. We will see if he retains that feeling today.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
Hannibal said:
So am I right in thinking that you drive once the bar is in the bottom position? you aim to push yourself up onto your shoulders which in principle will help get the bar moving and then maintain a position that is almost a decline bench?
I dont care how long it takes so long as I get it
.When I set up, get into position, drive back with my legs, etc...that's all before I even unrack the bar. None of that changes through the movement. The drive is there from the begining to the end.
Hannibal is right...it took me a couple weeks. It felt like 2-3 movements, shoulders under, in and down, then up. After a couple weeks, I was doing them, and it just hit me that it was one motion. I had been thinking about every step individually, but then the entire physics scheme just became one motion. It's a light bulb moment...
Hannibal is right...it took me a couple weeks. It felt like 2-3 movements, shoulders under, in and down, then up. After a couple weeks, I was doing them, and it just hit me that it was one motion. I had been thinking about every step individually, but then the entire physics scheme just became one motion. It's a light bulb moment...
Imnotdutch said:
Your legs drive you into the bench throughout the movement. But yes, you drive through your heels at the bottom of the bench...the more force you generate driving your traps and upper back into the bench....the more force you can generate to accelerate the barbell. It turns the bench press into more of a whole body movement...a controlled shove if you will.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
Thanks for the help Spats and Hannibal. Could be interesting working on this.
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