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Everything That's Wrong with Your PCT
- Thread starter D_Mac
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Here is the first part;
In the world of steroid users, it has become mandatory to follow post cycle therapy (PCT) upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had great success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the major problems with popular PCT protocols and clarify exactly how we should use the items at our disposal for optimum recovery from AAS. Three main topics will be covered in this article –
hCG on cycle -- I will show you the best way to use HCG, which will protect your "testicular real-estate", and prime your HPTA for the fastest and most complete recovery possible.
SERMs. -- Drugs such as Clomid and Nolvadex are some of the most toxic drugs in a steroid-users cabinet. I will present the evidence of this toxicity and provide alternatives.
Peptides for PCT -- Peptides such as GH and IGF-1 have much more of a role in PCT than most people realize. Besides preserving muscle gains, these hormones can actually help restore testicular function after a cycle.
In the world of steroid users, it has become mandatory to follow post cycle therapy (PCT) upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had great success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the major problems with popular PCT protocols and clarify exactly how we should use the items at our disposal for optimum recovery from AAS. Three main topics will be covered in this article –
hCG on cycle -- I will show you the best way to use HCG, which will protect your "testicular real-estate", and prime your HPTA for the fastest and most complete recovery possible.
SERMs. -- Drugs such as Clomid and Nolvadex are some of the most toxic drugs in a steroid-users cabinet. I will present the evidence of this toxicity and provide alternatives.
Peptides for PCT -- Peptides such as GH and IGF-1 have much more of a role in PCT than most people realize. Besides preserving muscle gains, these hormones can actually help restore testicular function after a cycle.
tdringo
New member
Great read, thanks for the link D_Mac. Heres the recap of the HCG section "Recap – For optimal preservation of testicular function during cycle, use 100iu hCG ED starting 3 days after your first AAS dose. Drop the hCG a week before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG a week after your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG a week before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even drop in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, making for a seamless recovery.
A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)
As an alternative to the on cycle hCG protocol, you could follow a plan based on modulation of the gonadotropin pulse generator. (seen here)
Note: If following any of these protocols, hCG should NOT be used after the cycle."
A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)
As an alternative to the on cycle hCG protocol, you could follow a plan based on modulation of the gonadotropin pulse generator. (seen here)
Note: If following any of these protocols, hCG should NOT be used after the cycle."
lil-swole
New member
I enjoyed the read - it was a very well written article.
However, the thing is, obviously the author is pushing a product, and thus, the article is probably biased. Citing scientific references is an awful lot like law; you can make it say just about anything because there is an abudance of contradictory cases to select from.
The moral of the story is stick to what is known to work and realize it isn't all black and white.
However, the thing is, obviously the author is pushing a product, and thus, the article is probably biased. Citing scientific references is an awful lot like law; you can make it say just about anything because there is an abudance of contradictory cases to select from.
The moral of the story is stick to what is known to work and realize it isn't all black and white.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
I've spoken to Eric about a lot of this...I don't know how (realistically) toxic Nolvadex really is...the literature certainly supports that there is some degree of toxicity, but realistically, how often have you ever heard of this affecting someone (showing some signs of toxicity)...I never have. Though, to his credit, he does admit that...and suggests an alternative that may simply be better because of less potential risks.
HCG...bleh...I don't know...I just don't know if the evidence is there to use it on a cycle in lieu of during PCT...but he does present a case...I'd really need to look over the references to figure it out...I kind of don't bother much with HCG, but now that I have a 'script for it, I should look further into it. Eric addresses (what I think is my theory) on HCG/Nolv for PCT, and that's good to see included.
I know Eric is really writing what he believes though, and not just trying to sell a product...he is definately against SERMs like Clomid and Nolv for PCT, and I agree with his asessment of Resveratrol being useful for PCT (he has it in his Dermacrine, and I have it in CyoGenX).
I also like the idea of Peptides for PCT, because there is a decent amount of evidence that they will help restore testicular function.
If I could have one wish, I would have liked to see him include something on AIs in the article, because in a PCT article, not including a review of AI's seems to be obvious by it's absence.
Overall, I like reading what Eric has to say about stuff like this...some stuff we agree on, others not, but he's got an educated view and people can benefit from reading it.
HCG...bleh...I don't know...I just don't know if the evidence is there to use it on a cycle in lieu of during PCT...but he does present a case...I'd really need to look over the references to figure it out...I kind of don't bother much with HCG, but now that I have a 'script for it, I should look further into it. Eric addresses (what I think is my theory) on HCG/Nolv for PCT, and that's good to see included.
I know Eric is really writing what he believes though, and not just trying to sell a product...he is definately against SERMs like Clomid and Nolv for PCT, and I agree with his asessment of Resveratrol being useful for PCT (he has it in his Dermacrine, and I have it in CyoGenX).
I also like the idea of Peptides for PCT, because there is a decent amount of evidence that they will help restore testicular function.
If I could have one wish, I would have liked to see him include something on AIs in the article, because in a PCT article, not including a review of AI's seems to be obvious by it's absence.
Overall, I like reading what Eric has to say about stuff like this...some stuff we agree on, others not, but he's got an educated view and people can benefit from reading it.
lil-swole
New member
Anthony Roberts said:
I really hope this isn't hijacking this thread, but it does go along with the title, soo...
ANTHONY,
Your PCT seems like it is nearly identical to the one Dr. JMW posted back in 2004 (and Jenetic also posted as recently as '06) - [and I believe they both explained how nolva protects the leydig cells], EXCEPT you do 500U ED instead of 1000U 3x/week (a difference of 500U/wk, which really shouldn't make a difference due to the 1 -2 day half-life of HCG), and you add Aromasin for the first 4 weeks.
I have a question about the addition of Aromasin. How would using that for 4 weeks PCT not lower estrogen too much? Lowering it too much can't be good for recovery, can it? I could understand incorporating it in PCT as the exogenous androgen levels fall, but continuing without tapering down for four weeks I would think would drive estrogen levels down in the dirt, which I would think would most certainly cause lethary and loss of libido to say the least. I'm not attacking your PCT - I actually think it was setup in a very educated way, but I'm just wondering about this. So, please enlighten me!
lil-swole said:
I agree with science being a lot like law, throw statistics in that bag too
.For me it basically comes down to 2 things.
First, does the argument intuitively make sense and have some logical scientific backing, if so I will probly it.
Second, if others I trust have tried it and liked it, then I will definitely try it.
And of course the biggest one, did it work for me...
I only know PCT with clomid myself, and I used Nolva too. So I can't compare the too, but maybe next time I will try this method and i will see what is best.
Good to see some educated bros extrapolating on the perils of SERMS as I did many years back. Hell, do a search on this board alone from a few years ago and you'll see vitriol toward me for stating that Clomid blows. You'd think I killed somebodies mother. I have a chapter in BOTTOMLINE BODYBUILDING called "Clomid -- The Big Lie."
I agree with Anthony and may have some issues with the use of HCG. And of course, everyone who has actually designed a supp (not just threw togther some ingredients and sold it) feels that their choice of substances, combinations and delivery system is best. Honestly, I'd say all the legit ones can help. It's just a matter of trying a few and seeing which ones you like.
I agree with Anthony and may have some issues with the use of HCG. And of course, everyone who has actually designed a supp (not just threw togther some ingredients and sold it) feels that their choice of substances, combinations and delivery system is best. Honestly, I'd say all the legit ones can help. It's just a matter of trying a few and seeing which ones you like.
TM248 said:
You inject it with slin pins. Its a painless shot and you can shoot it anywhere you want. -- your fat, your muscle, your balls, whatever.
-Pp
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
lil-swole said:ANTHONY,
Your PCT seems like it is nearly identical to the one Dr. JMW posted back in 2004 (and Jenetic also posted as recently as '06)
Can you link me to those PCT protocols?
I certainly didn't "invent" using Nolvadex + HCG...that was standard long before I came along..it has been used since the mid 90's, I would imagine...though specific protocols vary. I was the first person to ever suggest Aromasin for PCT because it works so well with Nolva:
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/aromasin-exemestane.htm
And I think I'm likely the first person to put Vitamin E in the protocol because it enhances the effect of HCG:
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm
But can you post those other PCT protocols? I'm very interested in seeing what others have to say about things...
Aromasin is steroidal in nature, and provides a nice boost in your sense of well being and energy; additionally lowering estrogen (which is part of the negative feedback loop) will raise testosterone. And you know what? HCG will raise estrogen levels (as will Nolvadex, I seem to recall)...and the aromasin will help control that. Arimidex and Aromasin don't actually lower estrogen to the point where you are below physiological range (like Letrozole does), but rather simply lower it to the lower end of the physiologically acceptable range. Taking more of those AIs for longer doesn't lower you to below physiological range in most cases...they peter out very quickly....as an example, 1mg of Arimidex is basically the same as .5mgs or 10mgs, except very minor and marginal percentages of estrogen/testosterone changes. It's kind of like taking aspirin....one aspirin will lower your temperature a bit, but if you take 20 of them, it won't make your body temperature go down to freezing.
lil-swole
New member
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-330386.htmlAnthony Roberts said:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/printthread.php?t=376177
Yea, the addition of aromasin and the vitamin E was all you though.
I understand everything you are saying here, but I was just thinking that the 20mg Aromasin in week 4 might be a little overkill (effectively lowering estrogen 85% when your body is stuggling to regain natural hormone levels [and I understand this will raise test due to the fact the eliminated estrogen would not be able to contribute to the negative feedback loop, but I figured there would be more cons then pros in that scenario]). And even in week 3, when the androgen levels would have dropped significantly from the exogenous steroids, I know hcg 500U/day would raise estrogen, but I didn't think it would do it to the point where 85% would need to be eliminated - hence, why I was wondering why you didn't start tapering down the aromasin around this point, to make it look something like:Anthony Roberts said:
weeks 1-2 Aromasin 20mg/day,
week 3 10mg/day,
week 4, 10mg/EOD
But I'm really knit-picking - overall, like I said, it was setup very well, and I'm also nearly certain you've done a whole lot more research on this than me so I'm sure if you've already considered this then there is a reason why you did it your way and not my way - I'm just trying to clear up my own understanding of the whole concept!
.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
lil-swole said:
They reccomend nolvadex and HCG (but the HCG is at a very different dose than the one I reccomend)...that's the same thing most steroid books reccomended for years prior to those guys reccomending it.
I understand everything you are saying here, but I was just thinking that the 20mg Aromasin in week 4 might be a little overkill (effectively lowering estrogen 85% when your body is stuggling to regain natural hormone levels [and I understand this will raise test due to the fact the eliminated estrogen would not be able to contribute to the negative feedback loop, but I figured there would be more cons then pros in that scenario]). And even in week 3, when the androgen levels would have dropped significantly from the exogenous steroids, I know hcg 500U/day would raise estrogen, but I didn't think it would do it to the point where 85% would need to be eliminated - hence, why I was wondering why you didn't start tapering down the aromasin around this point, to make it look something like:
weeks 1-2 Aromasin 20mg/day,
week 3 10mg/day,
week 4, 10mg/EOD
But I'm really knit-picking - overall, like I said, it was setup very well, and I'm also nearly certain you've done a whole lot more research on this than me so I'm sure if you've already considered this then there is a reason why you did it your way and not my way - I'm just trying to clear up my own understanding of the whole concept!
What would tapering the Aromasin do? We don't really have any evidence that lowering it to 10mgs/day instead of 20 would do anything (unless you do have that evidence, which is possible, because I haven't looked into Aromasin over the last year or so). 1mg/day of Arimidex is totally equal in basically every way to .5mgs/day...so tapering Arimidex in half like you suggest with the aromasin wouldn't do anything at all..tapering Letrozole from 2.5mgs/day to 1mg/day wouldn't do anything either (would still suppress just as much estrogen)...I am unaware of any studies that show Aromasin at 10mgs/day will suppress half as much estrogen as 20mgs/day...but looking at other AIs, it doesn't seem likely to me that it would. In one study, 50mgs of Aromasin was found to be pretty much the same as 25mgs for estrogen reduction.
But in the end, what I present you with, as always, is not a blueprint that has to be followed to the letter or your house will be unstable. It's more like a piece of music that I wrote, which is yours to add to or take away from as you see fit, to make the piece sound the way you think it should. Play it in another key, add a solo, add or take away notes...whatever...
If you want to taper, do it, and let me know the results. I don't think that tapering AIs, for PCT will be worthwhile...but it's your song, and you can sing it how you want. Just drop me an e-mail and let me know how it worked out, either way.
lil-swole
New member
Again, I understand what you are saying, but there has to be a point in which the dosage will have significant impact on the efficacy on the drug. You know good and well that if one took .25mg AROMASIN, it probably wouldn't do much; similarly, doubling the dosage of ARIMIDEX from .25mg to .5mg will have greater effect on the drugs efficacy then doubling it from .5mg to 1mg (and that will have greater impact than doubling 1mg to 2mg) - but there seems to be a significant difference in the drugs efficacy between .25mg and .5mg, based on user experience from what I've seen on the boards. So, you are correct in stating that I have no idea if halving the dosage of 20mg aromasin to 10mg aromasin would make a significant impact or not on the drugs efficacy - but I am certain that there is a point where lowering the dosage would make a significant impact (just need to find where that point is).Anthony Roberts said:
You make it all sound so beautiful!Anthony Roberts said:
But, really, I do appreciate the research you do - intelligent people using their brains and coming up with new ideas helps to further progress. So keep up the good work!
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
lil-swole said:Again, I understand what you are saying, but there has to be a point in which the dosage will have significant impact on the efficacy on the drug. You know good and well that if one took .25mg AROMASIN, it probably wouldn't do much; similarly, doubling the dosage of ARIMIDEX from .25mg to .5mg will have greater effect on the drugs efficacy then doubling it from .5mg to 1mg (and that will have greater impact than doubling 1mg to 2mg) - but there seems to be a significant difference in the drugs efficacy between .25mg and .5mg, based on user experience from what I've seen on the boards. So, you are correct in stating that I have no idea if halving the dosage of 20mg aromasin to 10mg aromasin would make a significant impact or not on the drugs efficacy - but I am certain that there is a point where lowering the dosage would make a significant impact (just need to find where that point is).
You make it all sound so beautiful!
But, really, I do appreciate the research you do - intelligent people using their brains and coming up with new ideas helps to further progress. So keep up the good work!
I may disagree with the exact numbers, but your point is well taken; there must be a point where it drops off. But consider that for letrozole, you can inhibit much of the aromatase enzyme at a dose as low as 30mcg...
Tapering AIs...it's hit and miss...I don't really like that, but if you were really interested in tapering Aromasin, why not go down 1mg/day, and see how that works out?
You "experts" bore me arguing about the same old shit. How about some radical new approaches. Whats the deal with HMG?
HCG does not correct the problem of progressively-decreasing ejaculatory volume that is typical during a steroid cycle. So far as I know the only cure is to go off-cycle and use Clomid, but it is possible that human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG), a related drug which works analogously to follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) might be useful during a cycle to treat this problem. HMG supports spermatogenesis and is commonly used in conjunction with HCG to treat male fertility problems. (Consider use of HMG to maintain ejaculatory volume to be a strictly past-the-cutting-edge hypothesis: I have not yet had the opportunity to test the matter.)
HCG does not correct the problem of progressively-decreasing ejaculatory volume that is typical during a steroid cycle. So far as I know the only cure is to go off-cycle and use Clomid, but it is possible that human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG), a related drug which works analogously to follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) might be useful during a cycle to treat this problem. HMG supports spermatogenesis and is commonly used in conjunction with HCG to treat male fertility problems. (Consider use of HMG to maintain ejaculatory volume to be a strictly past-the-cutting-edge hypothesis: I have not yet had the opportunity to test the matter.)
vitamix said:
Yes, Ive been an advocate of combo HMG/HCG therapy for some time now. Did you read my comments on Meso in the Mens Health section?
-Pp
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Phaded
Guest
nelsons signature is beyond annoying
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
vitamix said:
I've known about HMG for awhile. I'm just not interested in reccomending it until I see more people doing it. Also...I'm not really interested in post-cycle spooge improvements. Honestly, I don't really give a shit about recovering spooge volume and sperm count after a cycle. The only thing that I can say HMG may be good for is increasing the number of intratesticular LH receptors, as elevated FSH will lead to that increase, and possibly lead to quicker test recovery because there'll be more LH receptors functioning in the testes.
Anthony Roberts said:
Exactamundo.
-Pp
needtogetaas
New member
good read.
needtogetaas
New member
this is a great thread.
needtogetaas
New member
good thread right here. Lots of info. As we know things are ever changing though.
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