ESTROGEN: The Misunderstood Male Hormone

[Anakin]

Nelson, do you recommend taking stuff like calcium glucarate and chrysin with any cycle, or would you say that there's no need for anything at all unless you start getting gyno or some other symptom of excessive estrogen? This goes for "reasonable" dosags of AAS of course...

 

[Silent Method]

By the way, isn't there a difference between intramuscular water retention (i.e. creatine) and subcutaneous water retention (i.e. estrogen)?

It is my understanding that estrogen causes both intramuscular and sub-q water retention.

 

[Transporter]

Nelson AST SS says that chrysin is BS
look at this article
Quite a few years ago, some laboratory test tube (in vitro) studies showed that a chemical called chrysin (5,7-dihydroxyflavone), prevented the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. However, a chemical reaction within a test tube does not mean the same effect will occur within a living body.

Paul Delia posted the results of an invivo (within the living body) study on chrysin last year. The results of this research confirmed that test tube findings can sometimes be a far cry from human experiments. Published in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition & Exercise Metabolism, this study examined the effects of chrysin on serum testosterone concentrations and adaptations to resistance training in healthy young men. The scientists specifically wanted to see if chrysin or indol-3-Carbinol increased testosterone levels or reduced the aromatization effects of androstenedione (a prohormone).

The study revealed that chrysin did not result in increased serum testosterone concentrations or reduce the estrogenic effect of androstenedione. Also, chrysin did not enhance the results of resistance training.

Even though the science shows chrysin is not effective, supplement companies still include this compound in their prohormone supplements. Why? It is a result of what Paul Delia appropriately terms the "monkey see - monkey do" syndrome that is rampant in the supplement industry.

This means if a supplement company spends a ton of money on marketing a useless supplement that is supported by absolutely no research, other "me too" companies will still copy the worthless product and sell it under their own name. Many supplement companies do this in a lame attempt to provide the consumer with something “new”, regardless of whether the compound is effective or not. It happens all the time. It’s a case of the crooks leading the stupid. The fact is that no human or animal research shows that chrysin possesses any ability whatsoever to bind to estrogen or prevent estrogen production.

 

[Koivu_11]

calcium d glucarate is more potent. Since it doesn't work in the same pathway, in the first step of aromatization, it's more effective at combatting estradiol aromatization. Chrysin can help at removing excess estradiol.

 

[OXANDRIN]

i prefer to eliminate estrogen.....thanks nelson

 

[genarr3]

Nelson you should have been on this board a year or two ago. The great crazy at then was attempting to eliminate every bit of estrogen in your body. Estrogen = bad.

I half heartedly bought into it and used Arimidex with a test only cycle. It was my worst cycle ever and I've been doing this a long time. I questioned whether my gear was bunk but they were Sostenon Redijets and supposedly there are no fakes. I also had a huge libido loss post and during cycle.

I don't use Anti-e's during cycles anymore, however I'm not at all gyno prone. While this works for me it could be a disaster for the next guy. We're all different.

 

[Mike P.T.]

One of the biggest misconceptions regarding steroid use, libido, management of water retention, growth factors, muscle gain, and overall health, is the role of estrogen in men. For too long, estrogen has been treated as the enemy. But estrogen and testosterone work together. And one without the other doesn't work as well. Obviously men need e and women need T , but in different ratios.

Herein lies natures Yin and Yang. It's all about balance. Just as the black side of the yin/yang symbol has a drop of white and the white side has a drop of black, so must our bodies have a little of it's opposite to exist in harmony. The same goes for T and e. In fact, the same goes for EVEYTHING in life. There is no one philosophy that is 100% correct. No poitical affiliate is always right. There are two sides to every argument. There's no one "best" way to train. Everything in moderation. Too much of anything is bad. Nothing is all black or white.

A disturbing trend in bodybuilding and anabolic use has been the indiscriminate ellimination of estrogen. Most everyone does it. But does anyone know why? Or exactly how much they're removing? Sure, lots of people know the cliche's -- the supposed reasons fo blocking armotase. But I'd venture to quess 99% of the people using anabolics haven't a clue how much e they're supressing. And just as many haven't got a clue what it's doing to them.

For one thing, estrogen has several advantages to the bodybuilder. It's even been suggested that estrogen plays a role in the prolferation of androgen receptors. Makes sense. Why elsewould e bee increased when you use steroids? That's a rhetorical question becasue the follow up is this; why is e increased when T is low? Seems odd that the body would produce the same hormone in retaliation to both high and low T levels. But it makes sense in a way.

e isn't always only the result of too much or too little T. e is released along with T, which is one of the reasons e gets so high when using HCG. The spike in LH increases both hormones. Now anyone who's used HCG knows that it causes a spike in libido. Yet, the concencous is that libido is a result of T alone -- or even a case of having a LOW e level. Not so. e is paramount to libido.

The e spike from the LH stimulation of HCG may also be the reason some people don't respond to Tribulus all that well. For a long time it was thought that since Trib increased LH, it was the T elevation that gave an increase in sex drive. But it may have been the increase in e. Most experienced Trib users willl tell you that when the dosages are increased over 2 grams it seems to have an opposite effect, lowering libido and ejaculate volume. Recently some people have complained of slight gyno symptoms on high dosages of Trib. Something to think about.

This brings us to the topic of anti e's. Who really knows how much are needed? It's all been guesswork based on the assumptions of a few misguided steroid grus. When it comes to sing an anti during a cycle, the backward thinking of "they can't hurt" is perhaps the most ignorant statement perpetuated on the internet. They can hurt plenty -- everything from lowered HDL, depression, vision disturbances, headache, and impotence to an increase of stroke to reduced gains. Not good.

Even more upsetting is the use of anti- es' to manage bloat. Ever hear of a sweatsirt?! Losing water is not that tough. But once again,drugs seem to be the answer before employing anything else. Besides, increased water retention increases strength. (The premise behind creatine).

The thing is this; there's a reason for the e. It keeps the body in balance (unless you're just doing stupid dosages) And it may be why so many of the old timers did so well with low dosages and no anti e's.

Science is bearing this out. There was a study on rats (no, ain't gonna post it, do a search) that showed "androgen receptor binding was dramatically increased after the administration of estrodiol, which in turn, increased the potency of administered anaboic steroids". Interesting.

It looks as if the BB community may have been shooting itself in the foot regarding estrogen. Of course, you still want to keep the ratio in your favor, which is why natural substances are a much better choice. Herbs and nutrients tend to keep the body in balance as opposed to overriding the metabolism. Substances like Calcium D Glucarate and Chrysin will most definitely lower e but there are no reports of e lowering to excessive or dangerous levels. Meanwhile A-dex can shut down e altogether which can be disasterous to your health, your muscles, and your dick.

And don't even get me started on Clomid. It isn't even prescribed as an anti -e. It's a fertility drug for women that got a reputation for having anti-e effects. (Even though it's an estrogen itself). Clomid has been the biggest boneheaded goof in terms of something that is supposed to be safe and effective since the addition of flouride to the drinking water.

So all in all, there's something to consider here. Don't obliterate e. Keep it in check. And try to see how your body reacts to it. I know it's a lot to ask, but in the long run, you'll be doing yourself a big favor. MEN NEED ESTROGEN. And now that we're a new generation of "homone manipulators" it's something we can't negect. Maybe with further research and investigation we'll learn more on how e can be used to our advantage. Until then, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Agreed for the most part.

I do however believe that while on a cycle anti's help to maintain natural test production while on a cycle which is a benefit for those on longer cycles when coming off.

I also don't believe that the wearing a sweatshirt idea is any good. Even though I know you were just using that as an example there are ways to reduce water intake true but not to the same degree unless you take dieuretics.

One more thing to note: Creatine causes water cell voluminazation not water retension. BIG difference. Water retension is excess water in between the muscle and the skin while water CV is the result of water being stored within the muscle which creatine does. Steroids do both.

 

[bazuka]

I have been on this board for a couple of months, doing my own research and gaining plenty of knowledge. I am still gaining as much as possible before I start a cycle. I have read and appreciate the bluntness of Nelson Montana. I am in my forties and decided to try some an e reducer (Calcium D-Glucarate). I noticed a decrease in libido and ejaculate volume. My e and t levels must be in a very good balance right now. Lesson learned need to be very careful with anti-e's when I do start my first cycle.

 

[bazuka]

I have been on this board for a couple of months, doing my own research and gaining plenty of knowledge. I am still gaining as much as possible before I start a cycle. I have read and appreciate the bluntness of Nelson Montana. I am in my forties and decided to try an e reducer (Calcium D-Glucarate). I noticed a decrease in libido and ejaculate volume. My e and t levels must be in a very good balance right now. Lesson learned need to be very careful with anti-e's when I do start my first cycle.

 

[buckwheat1]

What pathway is estrogen formed from LH. I thought the majority of the estrogen was formed via aromatizing of testosterone.